Your math is wrong. Brutal Swing is Off Cooldown for War, but not taken into account. Additionally, it's in a vacuum that doesn't exist in practical application. Spirits within is a Silence that builds DR. It is not part of any reasonably person's rotation on anything other then trash mobs, which should not be a realistic view on DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
That being said, PLD still does more more damage then a WAR on single target. WAR is much more effective against Multiple targets. I imagine if anything were to change with these two tanks, this would be the first thing.
The definitive WAR answer STR vs VIT... and stat caps
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10-02-2013, 06:54 AMNinjiitstu
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10-02-2013, 06:59 AMOndesvinffs, stop acting like you are a pro, you know that a PLD does just as much damage as a warrior, the math is there for you to read, and nother thing dont say a warrior is just as good as a PLD, you know just as well as us that a PLD outpreform a warrior in every aspect but AoE agro, - and they can fix that by granting the PLD Overpower!Quote:
Originally Posted by Exrage
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10-02-2013, 07:12 AMRaenryongYou can spam Spirits Within on the vast majority of mobs in the game with no issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
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10-02-2013, 07:29 AMKitruBrutal Swing adds a whopping 4.167 potency baseline. If you honestly think that Brutal Swing is going to do *anything* appreciable to your total damage dealt, you're deluding yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
So you say that Spirits Within shouldn't be counted but Brutal Swing *should*? Silence is *less* useful than stun so DR means a *lot* less. There's only one boss that I know of where silence means *anything* (Dhorne Chimera) and, in that fight, you also need stuns.Quote:
Spirits within is a Silence that builds DR. It is not part of any reasonably person's rotation on anything other then trash mobs, which should not be a realistic view on DPS.
Anyone that acts like WAR is more effective at AoE has no idea what they're talking about. Yes, Flash does no damage so any kind of AoE damage situation is naturally going to favor WAR; this would be true if Overpower was potency *5*. What you (and pretty much everyone else who always brings this up) is that Overpower has a *lot* going against it: it's *hugely* expensive (net loss of *80* TP per GCD, compared to the 10-20 of every other attack; Flash is, for all intents and purposes, completely and utterly free), unwieldy (*targeted* cone rather than PbAoE circle), has no secondary benefit like Flash's blind (minor issue, but still), and is smaller (120* cone w/ 8y radius = 67y^2 area; circle w/ 5y = 78y^2 area). The only advantages it brings are slightly better burst enmity generation (which comes at the cost of enmity generation down the line thanks to the massive cost) and the little bit of additional damage (less than any of your single target attack) that gets *easily* drowned out by the damage capability of any DPS you might be running with.Quote:
That being said, PLD still does more more damage then a WAR on single target. WAR is much more effective against Multiple targets. I imagine if anything were to change with these two tanks, this would be the first thing.
On top of that, PLD also brings Circle of Scorn, which is flipping amazing: it's free, it's the same size as Flash, and actually deals an appreciable amount of damage (more than Overpower, in fact).
Overpower is not the Twelve's gift to AoE tanking. In fact, thanks to all of the stuff that it has going against it, it's a pretty fair balance with Flash and Circle of Scorn. -
10-02-2013, 07:40 AMTanayaADS and it's adds in Coil needs to be silenced to avoid High Voltage. So generally that's two situations where you can't spam Spirits Within.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Otherwise I have no idea what Ninji is talking about. Spirits Within should be used as much as possible beyond those two cases. -
10-02-2013, 07:59 AMNinjiitstuThat would still make your math wrong, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Im saying do one or the other. Don't pick one side and leave another sides abilities out. Common sense should dictate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
That is going to be my new sig. You are clearly inept in every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Overpower is 4 x damage x Defiance. That, even at 25% increased Enmity, is a potency of 5. At 2x, its 8. So, what again?
Also its a loss of 70, not 80. And the reason WAR is better at AoE is the combination of Overpower AND Flash. You haven't been to coils yet, clearly. -
10-02-2013, 08:17 AMGamemakoActually, the math is not wrong. I found the same thing a month ago, before we even hit release. Additionally, you are also incorrect that WAR is superior to multiple targets, and I addressed that in the post from six weeks ago. You can only provide superior AoE DPS in a situation where you are spamming Overpower, and the TP cost is such that you'll be completely out of TP in 25 seconds -- obviously, you won't be doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
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10-02-2013, 08:28 AMJunk4BrainsActually by your own math WAR does more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
It is not until a WAR is in the group that a PLD's damage sees an advantage because of the Storm's Eye debuff. WHICH is a bit of a grey area....
Honestly it is not really fair to give PLD full credit for a DPS increase gained from an ability used by another class. Generally if x job provides the debuff than that job gets credit. So you can just as easily say that 'extra' damage a PLD does because of Storm's Eye belongs to the WAR NOT the PLD.
But to be fair as possible I find in such situations that since the WAR wouldn't get added damage without a PLD and a PLD won't get that extra damage without a WAR. That the dps increase is split 50/50. So if there is a 20 dps increase from SE then 10 of that is attributed to PLD and 10 of that is attributed to WAR. And since the difference between 10 and 10 is zero. You're back and square one with WAR doing slightly more damage.
And a little more on the topic, I don't know if you are unaware or simply find it inefficient. But WAR is able to go in and out of Defiance while in combat. What does this mean for WAR DPS?
It means once a minute a WAR can turn on Defiance, pop Infuriate, let loose Inner-Beast and turn off Defiance. To add a little icing on that cake, Internal release also shares the 60s cooldown. So every minute that can be a 300 potency attack with a 30% bonus to crit chance.
And also means every 180s a WAR can effectively turn on Defiance, pop Infuriate and then Unchained > Berserk, combo as normal and Inner Beast and turn off Defiance.
And on the topic of Brutal Swing. Yes its damage might be crap... but if you aren't worried about building up the enemy's stun resistance it is FREE crap. Just every 30 seconds between cooldowns free.
And on the topic of AoE damage. If you think a PLD can touch a WAR.... haha...ha...ha...hahaha. Yes, Overpower is expensive. But you act like a WAR has to spam it to the high heavens to compete with PLD. If you include Maim, OP has a potency around 144. PLD's CoS has a potency of 220-250. That means all a WAR has to do is use OP just twice every 25 seconds. Then you add in the buffs and the fact that because of the cooldown PLD can only fit two CoS in FoF and WAR can fit... roughly 7 into Berserk. And if they are taking advantage of their stance, every minute they can do the above stance dance but instead of using IB just pop off Internal released buffed Cyclones.
Since you like math I have a fairly simple word problem for you:
If a WAR engages, with Heavy Swing > Maim > Defiance > Infuriate > Berserk > Steel Cylcone > Click off Defiance > Spam Over Power until Pacified and then went immediately afk to make a sandwhich. How much time does the WAR have to make that sandwich until a PLD makes up the difference in AoE damage using CoS?
Of course threat wise arguing which is better between either class is just too derp-mode for me. End of the day both classes can successfully hold hate in their sleep. Its like arguing which is better to shoot fish in a barrel with... either way you end up with a bunch of dead fish.
As for the original point of this topic.... Vit is the easier option. Str you will struggle a lot but as someone said before str's returns gets better and better with gear. Same can be said for vit (higher defense means higher ehp) but in the end it boils down to playing style. If you are a reactive WAR who like sitting on your stacks and sticking to SE/BB, Vit will serve you better. If you are an active WAR who is less frugal with stacks and gets SP in whereever it can fit in, str will serve you better once you get the gear to make the most of your returns. -
10-02-2013, 09:14 AMExrage
Well put Junk, couldn't build on that anymore if I wanted to. Merely a reminder that the Dev team uses one of each class when making/testing content for a reason- each plays off another's strength and the warrior is vital to more than just buffing the paladin.
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10-02-2013, 10:49 AMKitruNo, I specifically chose to ignore it. The math is correct. You may not agreed with the method, but the math is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Common sense would also dictate that they don't follow *nearly* the same use paradigm. Spirits Within deals a helluva lot more damage with a much less important status effect. Ignoring that difference is like ignoring the vast gulf in state between Flash and Overpower (which you also do, so I really shouldn't be surprised).Quote:
Im saying do one or the other. Don't pick one side and leave another sides abilities out. Common sense should dictate that.
Really? Because it's pretty obvious that you can't even correct me correctly.Quote:
That is going to be my new sig. You are clearly inept in every way.
Overpower's enmity modifier is 2x, not 4x. That's 240 potency as enmity per use, pre-Defiance. I find it amusing that you're bringing up Overpower's numbers in a vacuum. You're acting as if 240 potency as enmity per GCD is somehow supposed to be monumentally high without even giving a point of comparison. If you want to claim that Overpower generates *way* more threat than Flash does, actually bring up a point of comparison because, unless Flash is complete and utter rubbish (on 3 targets, cycling the BB combo generates ~240 potency as enmity per GCD on each; Halone generates ~230; Flash needs to generate at least that much for it to provide meaningful enmity generation in realistic AoE scenarios; even at ~200, it would still be useful thanks to evenly distributing it rather than loading it on the third target), Overpower has nowhere near the absurd advantage that you think it has.Quote:
Overpower is 4 x damage x Defiance. That, even at 25% increased Enmity, is a potency of 5. At 2x, its 8. So, what again?
TP generation is 60 per 3 seconds. The GCD is 2.5 seconds, which equates to 50 TP/GCD. 130 - 50 = 80. If you want to math, math properly.Quote:
Also its a loss of 70, not 80. And the reason WAR is better at AoE is the combination of Overpower AND Flash. You haven't been to coils yet, clearly.
As to needing both Overpower and Flash, I seriously have to wonder why the hell you would ever need 3-4 uses *per fight* of a single, non-damaging AoE that provides no debuff. While I haven't been to Coils yet, I find it hard to come up with a situation where you actually *need* Flash, considering how little WAR actually gets to use it.