Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

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The Blood part of that is also why people have been pushing for Blood Gauge spenders to heal, you're technically using stored up blood, so why not have a heal attached to them? Doesn't need to be a strong one, 400 potency per use (not per hit) would work.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

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Honestly, if you're ever feeling like you've done everything between patches, try 11 out. It's a different type of MMO altogether for a whole bunch of reasons but it's also weirdly similar and you might get a kick out of seeing some of these origins. Avoiding any spoilery stuff, 11 has a city state of french inspired, highly religious elves who have a great reverence for their dead famous dragoon king. It also has a middle eastern inspired city state and the Sultana/Empress' most loyal servant is Raubahn, leader of the The Immortals. The twist is that Not-Ishgard is one of the 3 starting zones and Not-Ul'Dah is the isolationist that opens up in an expansion pack.

If you've ever wondered why AI companions are called the Trust system here in XIV, it's because in 11 there's Trust Magic that just lets you summon a copy of someone you trust.

In terms of jobs, 14 DRK is like half 11 DRK and half a job called "Rune Fencer" which was the anti-magic tank in 11, but also now the half of 11 DRK that didn't make it into 14 DRK became RPR so that's neat.

I love 11 a whole lot and just had to gush about it off topic for a second, sorry

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Originally Posted by Weetzlo

I love 11 a whole lot and just had to gush about it off topic for a second, sorry

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Making me miss playing it...except for the undead, I HATE fighting against them as a DRK...that accursed "Reverse" status they have with drain magic. Really wish they'd do a "bundle" with FFXIV so I can play both without spending $30 a month.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The Blood part of that is also why people have been pushing for Blood Gauge spenders to heal, you're technically using stored up blood, so why not have a heal attached to them? Doesn't need to be a strong one, 400 potency per use (not per hit) would work.

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I take it that is just to keep Quietus from Bloodwhetting levels of brokenness?
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Related lore-ish question: Has Souleater always (prior to XIV) been an HP-spender nuke? It seems also that HP-spenders are far more prominent than drains.

And a hot take: I honestly think it'd be fine for DRK to spend HP so long as it also had that much better a way than other tanks to bank and deploy self-healing. Such would allow for reduced healing waste, moving healing needs from damage spikes, to which the DRK could shuffle HP such that healers need spend less time on them (especially, when they'd rather be healing the raid) than on most tanks, to damage lulls, where oGCDs, Kardia, and HoTs could otherwise overcap.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I take it that is just to keep Quietus from Bloodwhetting levels of brokenness?
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Related lore-ish question: Has Souleater always (prior to XIV) been an HP-spender nuke? It seems also that HP-spenders are far more prominent than drains.

And a hot take: I honestly think it'd be fine for DRK to spend HP so long as it also had that much better a way than other tanks to bank and deploy self-healing. Such would allow for reduced healing waste, moving healing needs from damage spikes, to which the DRK could shuffle HP such that healers need spend less time on them (especially, when they'd rather be healing the raid) than on most tanks, to damage lulls, where oGCDs, Kardia, and HoTs could otherwise overcap.

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Not only to prevent Bloodwhetting levels of brokeness, but also because Abyssal Drain covers the "per hit" function...though I really wish Abyssal Drain was 300 cure potency instead of 200 cure potency (and also 200 instead of 150 for damage).

On lore response, yes, Souleater has ALWAYS been an HP-spender for big damage, as it is known by another name for old FFIV players...Darkness.

I think the Blood gauge was their answer to "spending HP" without actually making us spend it, since Souleater (which normally drains the user's HP) gives us Blood gauge.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I think the Blood gauge was their answer to "spending HP" without actually making us spend it, since Souleater (which normally drains the user's HP) gives us Blood gauge.

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Though it sadly gives the HP in the same move, and is therefore limited by (in balance for) being available, initially, every third GCD, such that Blood skills actually then reduce our healing over time and that healing never feels choiceful, timeable, or significant. A less frequently available, bankable skill, on the other hand, could feel far more powerful and skillful*.

But on that larger note of "HP-spending", I could perhaps see why you wouldn't, with so many parse-minded players out there, want to give HP-spending to a DPS since it'd just then more than likely be balanced around dealing its normal dps only when hooked up to rolling HoTs (and just a weaker DPS otherwise when not awkwardly constraining healer actions), but on a tank, when you have different periods under which that HP is more vital and other periods where it can go to waste... HP manipulation seems a fine and fitting mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

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Ffxi is a major time sink but it has been streamlined over the years so it’s doable now. It’ll take all the way to the end but see the cool things you can do with drainIII and dread spikes. It gives you a window into what DRK could be.

It is frustrating that there are two different visions of DRK between the devs and player base - they haven’t matched up since HW and the gap has widened. So shouldn’t the players get what they want?

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Originally Posted by Danelo

It is frustrating that there are two different visions of DRK between the devs and player base - they haven’t matched up since HW and the gap has widened. So shouldn’t the players get what they want?

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Thats really where i feel all the "gripe" about drk stems and why people are so critical of it's minor nuisances. In HW it had a well defined identity, a playstyle that a lot of players chose over the two other tank options(myself included) for its unique and fast paced gameplay. It is common that someone debating with me that "drk is fine", didn't even play during HW and so never actually experienced the unique gameplay it had. Now it is a carbon knockoff of war with none of the dopamine hit war gives.

Reaper made me realize that a huge part of enjoying a class is a "rewarding" gameplay aspect. On reaper i constantly want to build up to that 50 enshroud so I can have that extremely fun "burst" phase with a fast gcd, several ogcds between, and a big numbers finisher. Drk hasn't had a uniquely rewarding gameplay aspect since HW, when you would pop blood weapon for haste and mp regen so you could Dark Arts "EVERYTHING" lol

For those that weren't around then Drks original playstyle was utilizing Dark Arts(an oGCD, no dmg, mana spender) to buff other actions. Half of drk's kit had additional effects when used under Dark Arts and that was the appeal to the class. Choosing when to buff skills with dark arts and when to pop them dry to use the mana on another resource like buffing your defensive skills or aoes vs single target skills was a very unique playstyle and attracted a strong fanbase. Unfortunately it was COMPLETELY stripped from drk and nothing resembling a unique playstyle has been seen since.

We have a war kit without the big rewarding exclamation marks(our weak version of inner release), without the self sustain on big pulls(we used to have it, they took it away), with a convoluted double resource system for dps(they added a beast gauge er blood gauge to a tank job that was "unique" for using mp), a bunch of oGCD that have little to no impact(just a bunch of buttons to spam to take the place of the Dart Arts mechanic we used to have), and a gameplay that can be summed up with "hit all the buttons when they light up"(no thought once so ever. Hit everything when available, save 3k mp for TBN) The drk playstyle is literally "Weak Warrior with more Buttons".

Going forward I would love to see the job get some love in the playstyle aspect. If I had to suggest something, we are a magic tank, not a War. Ditch the blood system and the inner release *cough* Delirium spam and lets use our mp!

Sorry Danelo, I got carried away with what was supposed to be an agreement that DRK was very unique and fun in HW and has steadily been stripped of its identity since with "we haven't seen any complaints on the forums" as an explanation from the devs.

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Originally Posted by Jit

Sorry Danelo, I got carried away with what was supposed to be an agreement that DRK was very unique and fun in HW and has steadily been stripped of its identity since with "we haven't seen any complaints on the forums" as an explanation from the devs.

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No worries, fun read.

I would love to bring back the identity of “the more you hit me makes me stronger” aspect with blood price. When you OT do like a “dance partner” with MT except reskin as fray so hits to the mt benefit you with mp and drain effects from your kit can benefit the mt and/or you when you. We’ll see.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

No worries, fun read.

I would love to bring back the identity of “the more you hit me makes me stronger” aspect with blood price. When you OT do like a “dance partner” with MT except reskin as fray so hits to the mt benefit you with mp and drain effects from your kit can benefit the mt and/or you when you. We’ll see.

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Ideas like this are why I think DRK needs its own version of Cover.