Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

the op is right there is a culture of enabling in this game enabling of ToS violations SE should strike down the ban hammer on this sinners and banish them from our sight

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Remember the main reason OP is feeling this way isn't because intrinsically that there are people who play, for simpler terms, bad. It's the amount of people he has encountered that has led him to believe half the playerbase plays bad. If we take that as face value, then that half becomes a real number. But the real number is based off an exaggeration. That's why the concern becomes diminished. Not over his frustration. Even myself, I can understand encountering bad DF sessions and expressing frustration. I won't undermine that and you'll find most empathizing with frustrations. That's why we have a Tales of DF thread. It's concern over this claimed quantity and it's giving the impression to a lot of people in this thread is that it's being blown to proportions, thus casting also a diminished concern over OP's experience as well.

I mean put it this way, if that number was much smaller in his case and by much, let's pretend that only 5-10% of the playerbase played "bad" in his encounters, do you think he'd have this thread up?

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Personally going based off what I have seen with the OP yeah. Since at the core I do not think the frequency is so much the issue per-se. The fact it happens and in his view the community enables it is the core issue.

Granted I fall into the camp that thought his claims where an exaggeration, but the core of his message I did agree with. That our community does enable a degree of poor play because the skill floor is so low in which one has to play to clear the content. Thus creating this environment where trying is not even required especially when you have other players willing to make the difference.

His personal experiences does not detract from that, though even if I do think his claims may be exaggerated, we still cannot throw around the notion that in his experience over half of his encounters have someone who is playing poorly. I guess what I am saying is overall the possibility exists that his claims are his true experience.So what is the point of focusing on that claim since we really have no way to say otherwise.

Granted, SE will not do anything so I get that largely makes this topic moot.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

I see I am receiving "I am going to hate you and make fun of you since I don't have better use for my time" treatment.



What's more foolish is admitting there is a problem and making fun of those who encounter the problem.

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To be fair, I wasn't poking fun at you specifically, but more at the collective whole of individuals who claim (falsely) to be plagued by DF problems endlessly, or those who exaggerate their personal encounters and claim that this is the reality of the entire player base. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy some of what's being said. I realize that probably isn't much consolation though. I've been playing since ARR open beta (8 years-ish soon) and I can honestly say that this is not the truth. Sure, there are a number of players who could be considered "bad" and/or toxic, but they are hardly any sort of majority. In the DF, you will encounter all kinds. Like the roulettes we queue for, the people are also random. Be prepared to deal with that or don't queue. People in this thread are making a pretty big deal out of players they will most likely spend only 15-20 minutes with at most. It takes more time to stop and lecture them. Sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Tbh he did win that argument. Finally called people out on their hypocrisy and double standards lmao.

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Nah, nothing that the Alliance did could compare to what Varis planned to do, which would've been bad for the Eorzean tribes as well.

Pointing out someone's bad treatment is irrelevant when what you're trying to do will be worse.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Honest question, let us just say it is exaggerated why does that even matter?

Does that make what they experience less valid or not a concern?

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Honest answer:

Yes, because this is a community, and the OP is trying to get the community to act in a certain way, but it is filled with diverse people with different values.

It's like the people who say the hardcore raiding community is toxic. There are people here who would say it's actually not and any toxicity is actually rare occurrences or even exaggerated. Even if so, that doesn't change people's individual anecdotal experiences, but people still wouldn't want the raiding community to be viewed by what people would claim to be the minority/exaggerated experience.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Wait but I thought people were all about giving someone the benefit of the doubt especially over issues over personal experience which can often not be proven to be false in such contexts though.

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The benefit of the doubt only extends to admitting that people's experiences might be true. It doesn't extend to discussion on what should then be done about it. Other people could chime in with different experiences. Thus, taking all of them together, there could be discussion on how bad the problem really is or whether it even matters to the community as a whole. Also, context matters. Maybe it's a problem when you're trying to pug and learn/farm a difficult content, but not when you're just doing your daily roulette. Again, people have different experiences and opinions on it.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Nah, nothing that the Alliance did could compare to what Varis planned to do, which would've been bad for the Eorzean tribes as well.

Pointing out someone's bad treatment is irrelevant when what you're trying to do will be worse.

Honest answer:

Yes, because this is a community, and the OP is trying to get the community to act in a certain way, but it is filled with diverse people with different values.

It's like the people who say the hardcore raiding community is toxic. There are people here who would say it's actually not and any toxicity is actually rare occurrences or even exaggerated. Even if so, that doesn't change people's individual anecdotal experiences, but people still wouldn't want the raiding community to be viewed by what people would claim to be the minority/exaggerated experience.

The benefit of the doubt only extends to admitting that people's experiences might be true. It doesn't extend to discussion on what should then be done about it. Other people could chime in with different experiences. Thus, taking all of them together, there could be discussion on how bad the problem really is or whether it even matters to the community as a whole. Also, context matters. Maybe it's a problem when you're trying to pug and learn/farm a difficult content, but not when you're just doing your daily roulette. Again, people have different experiences and opinions on it.

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What I am saying is the perceptions of others regarding on the validity of the claims be it the frequency or if the community is toxic in the case of your raiding example seems kinda of moot at the heart of the discussion present and only seems to add conflict. Generally, as a forum we may disagree with the claim for whatever reason be it faulty or not. We can still have a discussion on the matter, even if nothing may come from it.

Though having that discussion is hard when people focus on aspects of their claim that to be fair at the very least is kinda irrelevant. Sure the OP’s post did not help, but also having others jump on the bandwagon that focuses on the the exaggerated point does nothing either to move the discussion along.

Personally when I give people the benefit of the doubt just as I did with this thread and many others I focus on core point of the OP and hope to have a discussion about it, the context that brought about the thread does not matter much to me personally, all that matters if the core topic and what kind of discussion could be hand around it. Many of my most enjoyable discussions I have had on this forum really stemmed from a topic that by in large would never be fixed by SE. I do think many of the claims regarding straw mans or being hyperbolic would go to the way side if people forgo this aspect of trying to win a debate or prove the other side wrong by looking past the flaws in the OP and had an open discussion regarding why people may feel like the OP in terms of having a community that enables poor play.

Like personally I do not care if people call PvE or PvP toxic because in their eyes it very well can be, though I would still love to have a discussion as to why they may feel that way just to gain a greater understanding for how players think or feel about certain things. Though it appears such things boils down to many people as either arguing for the sake of arguing or trolling. Which is a shame because their are some interesting views regarding the stance that FFXIV does foster a sense of poor play is fine just due to the nature of content, and while I know SE will not do anything about it is also interesting to see what in theory could SE or the community do about it.

As you said people have different experiences so focusing on the frequency seems weird to me. Instead why not just talk about the core topic of their post which is they feel FFXIV has an enabling community, asking what do they mean by that having them expand on that, and then maybe just talking about steps they and others that feel that way can take to try and prevent such things, and maybe at the end in a hypothetical world talk about what in theory could be done alter that perception altogether.

Granted, I am the type of person that still sees value in a troll thread if it has an interesting topic at the core like the whole hide glamour option that was a fun thread for me because I got to see different insights to how people view their character.

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Originally Posted by Awha

all that matters if the core topic and what kind of discussion could be hand around it.

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What do you think is the core topic? To me, based on the OP, it's asking what the community can do to fix the OP's negative experiences:

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

What can we do about it? It seems to infect almost every corner of this game.

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To answer that question/discuss that topic fully, you'd have to start with whether there needs to be anything done about it in the first place, whether it has a noticeable impact to the community at large if indeed it truly "seems to infect every corner" of FFXIV.

It's actually a pretty broad topic because the OP also mentioned "creepy habits" and such in PFs. There's some nuance to the answer depending on the specific part in discussion.

Another thing to add onto Linayar's point. The OP also ignores any and all solutions offered that would allow people to minimize the issue for themselves. Instead insisting on silly things like 'tiered df' or 'automatic kick if some arbitrary number isn't met'. OP and a good few of the folks that agree with them also keep insisting 'SE should/could do x, y and z' when they know already that SE won't. That is why I for example have been so explicit in stating what they themselves can do rather than relatively pointlessly discuss what they feel SE, or even funnier, those bad actors themselves, should do. You can say a hundred times that you feel all these bad players should do something.. but it's exactly because of their nature, namely, malicious malcontents, that you should already know they won't.

On the matter of exaggeration and such, yes, sure, you can still have a discussion, but that goes both ways. OP and most of those that share their view have been just as dismissive if not even more dismissive towards anyone that says 'I don't share your experience', either calling us blind, liars or outright accusing us of just 'defending these bad actors' out of some weird desire to perpetuate the problem.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Another thing to add onto Linayar's point. The OP also ignores any and all solutions offered that would allow people to minimize the issue for themselves. Instead insisting on silly things like 'tiered df' or 'automatic kick if some arbitrary number isn't met'. OP and a good view of folks that agree with them also keep insisting 'SE should/could do x, y and z' when they know already that SE won't. That is why I for example have been so explicit in stating what they themselves can do rather than relatively pointlessly discuss what they should SE, or even funnier, those bad actors themselves, should do. You can say a hundred times that you feel all these bad players should do something.. but it's exactly because of their nature, namely, malicious malcontents, that you should already know they won't.

On the matter of exaggeration and such, yes, sure, you can still have a discussion, but that goes both ways. OP and most of those that share their view have been just as dismissive if not even more dismissive towards anyone that says 'I don't share your experience', either calling us blind, liars or outright accusing us of just 'defending these bad actors' out of some weird desire to perpetuate the problem.

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Very much the truth. And on that last point, I find it particularly funny when there have been many of us who have specifically championed actually helping those who are struggling get told you can't help anyone because doing so will get you reported and insta-banned. I'm not really sure how actively wanting to help and offering to help (particularly in light of the supposed omnipresent threat of the ban hammer) constitutes enabling anyone. If anything, wanting to escape the supposed rabble with forced kicks and locked out DF tiers is a much more "enabling" perspective.

Personally I do not think the quality of the discussion or merit of the discussion is not predicated on the notion that a problem is large enough to solve especially which issues that by in large will not be solved by SE or even the community.

Though I am a fan of discussing hypothetical situations and problems. My view of the core problem with the OP is in the title that FFXIV has a culture that enables what they view as poor play. Which I think could be an interesting discussion.

Sorry on moblie. Though I will say that I disagree with the notion that of kicking those one view as a problem as enabling mainly because it is overall not my place to tell another person how to play. Idc how someone plays that is why I do not ask people to change I just wait the 5 min and start the vote. People are free to play how they want and while I may question why someone may want to play a certain way it is not my desire to educate others on how to play. If someone wants to improve by in large I do think they will take the time to personally reflect on why they may have been removed and thus take steps to avoid such things if they are removed often. That is why i feel people should kick people more often.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally I do not think the quality of the discussion or merit of the discussion is not predicated on the notion that a problem is large enough to solve especially which issues that by in large will not be solved by SE or even the community.

Though I am a fan of discussing hypothetical situations and problems. My view of the core problem with the OP is in the title that FFXIV has a culture that enables what they view as poor play. Which I think could be an interesting discussion.

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I think whether or not FFXIV has that culture is not really an interesting topic by itself.

Let's say people "agree" that the community has that culture. Then the question is, so what? And that brings us back to whether we need to do anything about it, which means talking about whether it's a problem in the first place and how big of a problem if it is.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I think whether or not FFXIV has that culture is not really an interesting topic by itself.

Let's say people "agree" that the community has that culture. Then the question is, so what? And that brings us back to whether we need to do anything about it, which means talking about whether it's a problem in the first place and how big of a problem if it is.

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I disagree I think the so what is the most interesting aspect of the discussion. It lends itself to see what people may value in their MMO experience. Why certain things matter especially when in the grand scheme it may not have any value so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I disagree I think the so what is the most interesting aspect of the discussion. It lends itself to see what people may value in their MMO experience. Why certain things matter especially when in the grand scheme it may not have any value so to speak.

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It's not that it doesn't have any value, but it's so subjective. It's like an online store item that may have value for some, but not for others.

SE might very well do something is the clamor gets loud enough. See male Viera andfemale Hrothgar. It's also not that I am ignoring your solutions, it's that those shouldn't be where we have to go to in the first place.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It's not that it doesn't have any value, but it's so subjective. It's like an online store item that may have value for some, but not for others.

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That is why I said so to speak, because the value varies from person to person which makes it interesting. I agree some subjective topics are bland like favorite food. Though subjective topics that revole around a perception of a community can often be enlightening personally.

Final Fantasy XIV has enabled me to tank and heal in dungeons. That's a win in my book. Keep doing what you're doing Final Fantasy XIV. I haven't run across one toxic person or any toxicity for that matter.

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

Final Fantasy XIV has enabled me to tank and heal in dungeons. That's a win in my book. Keep doing what you're doing Final Fantasy XIV. I haven't run across one toxic person or any toxicity for that matter.

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Then you are either blind, or just not wanting to see. Toxicity is everywhere, more so in casual play. High-end play toxicity has largely been leashed by ToS. The same cannot be said for low-end toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Then you are either blind, or just not wanting to see.

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So now you're dismissing other people's own experience?

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Toxicity is everywhere,

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This kind of statement is why people would accuse you of lying.

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more so in casual play. High-end play toxicity has largely been leashed by ToS. The same cannot be said for low-end toxicity.

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Then I guess the ToS doesn't consider the latter to be toxic.

I'd assume low-end toxicity isn't common because people tend to have low expectations from others in dungeon finder to begin with and are not likely to call them out for poor play unless it's actively preventing from finishing an instance (Which is rare as there are little to no meaningful DPS checks or total party wipe mechanics in normal modes).

There definitely are people who will get offended if you dare suggest they're doing something wrong, though I find that people who are playing badly tend to just not respond at all if they get called out.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

SE might very well do something is the clamor gets loud enough. See male Viera andfemale Hrothgar. It's also not that I am ignoring your solutions, it's that those shouldn't be where we have to go to in the first place.

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The thing is, I haven't heard enough people state that they've had the same experience as you.

I think you don't really have as many bad runs as you think you've had. Not saying that that's how you remember things.

But we humans tend to remember negative things more than positive things. It's a survival instinct back from before we knew what was safe to eat or not. It was better for us to remember that that berry killed Joe than that fruit tasted yummy.

Couple that with the human nature to assume everyone has their own play style and learning style/speed, it can be easy to see how you might have a perception that so many are bad and that it's because they want to be carried.

No one has stated that they have had as many bad experiences as you, even those who tend to agree with you that the game enables being carried.

By not backing down on the frequency of bad runs you've had and stating that that is the case with conviction, it's not hard to see why some feel you are intentionally exaggerating your experiences.

When you exaggerate your experiences in an effort to get people to feel something is a problem, you will get people saying that it is not true and therefore is not a problem. You get people arguing about if there is a problem in the first place rather than arguing about what can be done to fix the problem. You want to reduce the frequency of bad runs. Whether that frequency is 50%, 25%, or some other percentage, I'd bet that anything short of 0% would cause players to agree that something that would reduce the percentage of bad runs wouldn't be a bad thing.

Then solutions can be discussed that would be relevant to how much investment it would take to implement the solution vs the pros and cons of the solution.

Your likely exaggeration, intentional or not, has everyone discussing the problem, when I'd imagine you really want discussion to be on the solution.

We have data that supports my point, but due to ToS we can't really discuss it.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Then you are either blind, or just not wanting to see. Toxicity is everywhere, more so in casual play. High-end play toxicity has largely been leashed by ToS. The same cannot be said for low-end toxicity.

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Thank you for your diagnosis. Yeah, think I'll just pass with you cuz, cringe. But, you do you.

if high end Toxicity was actually leashed by the tos half of you would not be here you'd be facing a permanent ban but se is weak in the knee when it comes to enforcing their tos against Parsers, Act and all the other stuff

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

Thank you for your diagnosis. Yeah, think I'll just pass with you cuz, cringe. But, you do you.

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Catboys don't get to call anyone cringe chief

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Catboys don't get to call anyone cringe chief

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I'm the one that's cringing. Pal.

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

I'm the one that's cringing. Pal.

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I dunno, I see a fedora. Regardless, feel free to present data that backs your point.

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

I'm the one that's cringing. Pal.

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Yeah and you offered nothing of substance aside calling the OP cringe just because they disagreed with you, so I'm not sure you have any room to cringe.

If that culture was not real or not a problem, this thread wouldn't be 75 pages long and going, there wouldn't be that 3.1k pages thread or a whole sub dedicated to DF horrors.

And ironically posts like "wow I never see it, must be fake" or "it's just a game" are some of the things OP calls out. Look at your healer's castbar every once in a while. It's very easy to tell when someone is half-assing their job, and it does affect everyone in the party in all scenarios.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

If that culture was not real or not a problem, this thread wouldn't be 75 pages long and going, there wouldn't be that 3.1k pages thread or a whole sub dedicated to DF horrors.

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It's not, it's only 19 pages. *cough*

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Originally Posted by Mykll

It's not, it's only 19 pages. *cough*

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We're on page 75 right now, and this is on page 3116 unless page counts somehow change across browsers.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

We're on page 75 right now, and this is on page 3116 unless page counts somehow change across browsers.

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Go into forum Settings (top right corner), then on the left, under My Settings, click General Settings. Change Number of Posts to Show Per Page. So I always find it amusing when someone states the number of pages, when there are 5 different settings on the number of posts per page. So, yes, for me, 19 pages.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...80/unknown.png


Edit: And the second reason why I made that first post (*cough*) is because it fits into the overall thread. You see 75. Someone else can say "You are crazy and exaggerating! There are only 19!" Two people see two different things. But I didn't want to draw that parallel in the first post outright, thus the little cough instead of a picture drawing it out.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I dunno, I see a fedora. Regardless, feel free to present data that backs your point.

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Nice strawman er fedoraman. Data. I tanked and healed in dungeons with zero, nada, none, goose egg, zilch ..... toxicity. That's my experience. Not your experience? Oh well. I can think of a number. Number one comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Yeah and you offered nothing of substance aside calling the OP cringe just because they disagreed with you, so I'm not sure you have any room to cringe.

If that culture was not real or not a problem, this thread wouldn't be 75 pages long and going, there wouldn't be that 3.1k pages thread or a whole sub dedicated to DF horrors.

And ironically posts like "wow I never see it, must be fake" or "it's just a game" are some of the things OP calls out. Look at your healer's castbar every once in a while. It's very easy to tell when someone is half-assing their job, and it does affect everyone in the party in all scenarios.

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Pot kettle. I didn't call OP cringe. Clarified it for you. I'm the one cringing. You're on me because I disagree with OP.

I didn't call OP fake. Just stated my experience. His experience not my experience? I can see that for sure.

I've spent enough energy on this post. I'm off to do Housing Extreme and send some positive waves to Soken.

LUL am I the only that that cringes a tad when people say things like sending positives waves / vibes / energy to someone? Joking aside people are right no one persons experience will be the same, all we have to really go by often is our own personal experience. Which is cool, best of luck getting that house.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Go into forum Settings (top right corner), then on the left, under My Settings, click General Settings. Change Number of Posts to Show Per Page. So I always find it amusing when someone states the number of pages, when there are 5 different settings on the number of posts per page. So, yes, for me, 19 pages.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...80/unknown.png


Edit: And the second reason why I made that first post (*cough*) is because it fits into the overall thread. You see 75. Someone else can say "You are crazy and exaggerating! There are only 19!" Two people see two different things. But I didn't want to draw that parallel in the first post outright, thus the little cough instead of a picture drawing it out.

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We both see either ~750 or ~31k posts though depending of the thread, regardless of how they are presented, about the topic and the subreddit still exists.

Though I do agree that depending of the person and/or the job they are playing, they might see things differently.

As an AST main, it's absolutely critical for me to observe what everyone is up to, and very aware of how people are handling their rotation and mechanics, or how my cohealer heals, DF is nothing short of cursed a majority of the time.
And I don't really blame "underperformers" as much as I blame the lack of proper in-game tutoring and the coddling from the community when for example I tell a WHM that they should use holy during pulls because it's the single best mitigation tool in the game and it's fun, but someone chimes in and say "they're fine, no one died". At least, until said underperformer gets aggressive, because this is a multiplayer game.

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Originally Posted by CobraChicken

Nice strawman er fedoraman. Data. I tanked and healed in dungeons with zero, nada, none, goose egg, zilch ..... toxicity. That's my experience. Not your experience? Oh well. I can think of a number. Number one comes to mind.

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Okay, well I've tanked, healed and dps'd dungeons, 8 mans, 24 mans, Bozja and DR. Even PvP. And in 50% of instances I find one or more players severely wanting. Furthermore, like I said we have data we just can't discuss it but it is easily accessible to have a looksie. I would suggest you do so.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

We have data that supports my point, but due to ToS we can't really discuss it.

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Just because people perform at different levels doesn't make a run bad.

Someone could be new and performing badly, but accepting criticism and getting better each time. I'd call that a good run.

A group of top tier players could be arguing over strategy and getting multiple party members killed by trying to force their strategy. I'd call that a bad run.

Your data would call both of those runs bad.

Data is just numbers and facts. Given the nature of the tool, it will never have enough information to really tell the why's of things. It can't tell you if the poor performance was due to laziness, bad habits due to bad teachers in the past, ignorance due to be new, or other issues.

Given that no one else has come in claiming 50% of their runs are bad you are either:

1. Knowingly exaggerating for effect
2. Unknowingly exaggerating due to misremembering the total of bad vs neutral vs good runs - totally possible due to human memory

I'm choosing to believe you are under #2 and don't want admit that maybe your memory is faulty. Because I'd feel that anyone under #1 would have come clean by now on the exaggeration just to get people moving towards discussing the possible solutions to the problem.

My question is this:

Why are you so fixated on getting everyone to believe that so many players are bad rather than trying to get players focused on discussing possible solutions to reduce the number of bad players?

Because even I, who hasn't had anywhere near 50% bad runs, would agree that the game could do more to encourage players to learn their class and role. To increase the skill level of the average player.

Well let's speak in "hypotheticals" here to illustrate my point. Is it acceptable for a single dps player to be contributing 30-40% of overall damage in any given 8 man fight? Or a tank to be the highest damage player in an 8 man or dungeon? These things are the norm in DF.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Well let's speak in "hypotheticals" here to illustrate my point. Is it acceptable for a single dps player to be contributing 30-40% of overall damage in any given 8 man fight? Or a tank to be the highest damage player in an 8 man or dungeon? These things are the norm in DF.

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Probably an unpopular opinion, but to me it's not an issue as long as we still win.


I mean yeah I probably could talk to them about it or try to get them kicked, but a) I can't see these numbers anyway (not gonna install unofficial addons) and b) I'm not up for a potential drama that it may cause, so I just stay silent, shrug it off and move on.

Anyone else feel there are people screen licking way too much?? :D

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Just because people perform at different levels doesn't make a run bad.

Someone could be new and performing badly, but accepting criticism and getting better each time. I'd call that a good run.

A group of top tier players could be arguing over strategy and getting multiple party members killed by trying to force their strategy. I'd call that a bad run.

Your data would call both of those runs bad.

Data is just numbers and facts. Given the nature of the tool, it will never have enough information to really tell the why's of things. It can't tell you if the poor performance was due to laziness, bad habits due to bad teachers in the past, ignorance due to be new, or other issues.

Given that no one else has come in claiming 50% of their runs are bad you are either:

1. Knowingly exaggerating for effect
2. Unknowingly exaggerating due to misremembering the total of bad vs neutral vs good runs - totally possible due to human memory

I'm choosing to believe you are under #2 and don't want admit that maybe your memory is faulty. Because I'd feel that anyone under #1 would have come clean by now on the exaggeration just to get people moving towards discussing the possible solutions to the problem.

My question is this:

Why are you so fixated on getting everyone to believe that so many players are bad rather than trying to get players focused on discussing possible solutions to reduce the number of bad players?

Because even I, who hasn't had anywhere near 50% bad runs, would agree that the game could do more to encourage players to learn their class and role. To increase the skill level of the average player.

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I am willing to bet if I count how many dungeons I do where as a tank or healer I am doing more damage then a DPS in the group, it probably would amount to 50%. I get for many that metric is moot, but for another using ACT data for dungeons and trials can account for a 50% of their encounters having someone that is playing subpar.

The 50% metric can be supported, but it just depends if you as a person care that a player is doing less damage then they should on average for someone of their ilvl and job.

Though I do think much of the back and forth on both sides stems from the fact that neither side does not want to be viewed as an asshole. This problem could be easily solved if people just took the time to remove people that view as underperforming. From personal experience it makes the run far more enjoyable. I kid you not I kick at least two people a day from doing my dailies because I just do not like to deal with players doing less damage then they should. I do not expect perfection but I also do not think it is right for a dps to do less damage then a tank or a healer especially during a boss fight.

Granted my view is harsh.