Okay they weren't lying about the relic

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

On the case of relic weapons, they have NEVER been classed as catch up weapons. The grind for them was too much for them to be classed as catch up weapons, until the current weapons that is. The catch up weapons would have been the older tome weapons, in this case, spending 500 tomes of causality and clearing P8 4 times for a weapon, which you can then use to clear p12, this is assuming you don't want to use crafted weapons.

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This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it. I mean, let's be honest here: clearing 60 different fates from 2 expansions prior just for a single step of a single relic is neither engaging content nor even remotely an "achievement", except perhaps of mindless persistence, and that's an order of magnitude more if you're farming multiple of these relics. And I think that's the piece lost in all of this. It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done, and that was for a single relic, and the mere thought of doing another has made it so that I've gotten through exactly one step of my next ShB relic in all of EW. And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead. You can get ~750-850 tomes per day if you clear all of your roulettes, but you'll only get about 400-600 per week if you just do the roulettes to cap the gated tomestone, plus maybe clear the normal raid floor and the a-raid, so 10k is ~2 weeks if you focus grind it and ~15-25 weeks if you do it passively. And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

Flowchart developing :3

Easy to do and the investors will be happy, well and some players obviously.

I can just shrug tho~

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Originally Posted by Kaedys

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider.

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Not done a savage raid since the start of ShB. Doesn't mean I'm not capable, I just don't have the necessary time to effectively do it (I work a shift pattern) and i don't feel like trying to do it through PF.

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Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later?

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Where did I say they had to? I mentioned P8N so that you can get the tome weapon from the uncapped tomes, but I never mentioned P8S as a 'catch up' weapon.

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And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

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But that is what a catch up weapon is. It is designed as a weapon that is easy to get so that, if someone stops playing for a while and needs better gear, they have a quick way to get one. That has historically been the tome weapon. Once the current tier has been out for a while, the tome weapon, for the current tier, becomes easier to get, making it another easy catch up weapon for someone to get.

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The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content.

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So does the tome weapon.

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It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content.

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Which is true, it, however, traded people's skill in clearing said content for time invested.

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It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

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Weirdly enough, this isn't WoW and, whilst I have no experience with the items there, there is no reason why both have to follow the same model, however, the tome weapon is what fits that definition.

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The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it.

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Which is the issue here.

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It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done,

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And that is how it is meant to be tackled. Something you can work on around other things.

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And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

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Only if you want those weapons to glam. Tell yourself, are you really going to use it? You don't seem like the person who cares about the content, just the glam at the end.

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Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead.

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Whilst that is a better option, I am of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to get a head start in the quest, just because you happen to have tomes in your inventory, or at least, only give a minimal increase. If you want tomes, you need to have something else to grind out on the side to step away from the mindless tome grind. Think the umbrite/crystal sands step for the ANima weapon.

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And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

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They always make steps easier when they aren't relevant anymore, so this is par for the course. However, the current relics are so easy to get, they haven't nerfed a single stage of it. Tells you something when that happens.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

We are getting new relic zones thank you SE. Eureka and Bozja have some of the best content this game has to offer in my opinion. Just took a Hali alt though Eureka for her WHM relic and plan on doing BA with her at some point. Hit 25 in Bozja yesterday and Dalraida is up next. Never gets old for me.

This relic grind has been a real disappointment for me personally and I'm glad they are at least for 7.0 going back to instanced zones.

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They confirmed we're getting new exploratory zones but I haven't heard anything about relics and if they will be involved or separate questlines. Is there an interview somewhere where it was mentioned? I try to keep up on the post-Fan Fest interviews but sometimes there's one I don't see.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They confirmed we're getting new exploratory zones but I haven't heard anything about relics and if they will be involved or separate questlines. Is there an interview somewhere where it was mentioned? I try to keep up on the post-Fan Fest interviews but sometimes there's one I don't see.

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It has not been mentioned one way or the other.

Considering the Field Operations zone appears to be a late content add to the expansion, I suspect the relic questline will be independent of it. That doesn't mean that the zone won't be an option for getting whatever is needed for the relics, just that it won't be a primary factor for them unlike Eureka and Bozja.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Sounding like Dawntrail is going to have more FFXI callbacks than just the alliance raid.

Maybe we'll get FFXI relic weapons too...

Step 1 Find rusty relic weapon, Collect 400 ancient currency items and acquire 3 rare crafting materials. Trade to an NPC and wait 1 game day
Step 2 Collect 1400 of a different ancient currency than step 1 along with a collection of weapons from the same weapon type and trade to an NPC and wait 2 Earth Hours
Step 3 Collect 6100 of yet another ancient currency different than the previous 2 steps. Complete tasks to acquire item needed from specific NMs. Trade to an NPC and wait 1 Earth Hour
Step 4 Collect 10,000 of the ancient currency used on step 1 along with 2 specific drops from specific enemies. Find the hidden ??? clicky spot in the world that is different for each weapon. Trade stuff there to get finished weapon.

Oh I can already see the rivers of tears this would create with a certain part of the player base. :3

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Other than the arbitrary time gates, this sounds a lot like previous relics. Collect currencies or items from specific FATEs, or in the case of Eureke NMs, then turn in for a weapon.

Also just going to link the Everquest Magician relic quest for people that think they want a grind.
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...html?quest=760

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Originally Posted by Kaedys

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

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Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, they should be achievements, just as much as clears and savage BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame (and to be able to do extremes and savages you can prog/clear these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

Edit: The only thing required by the game from the player that wants to engage in hardcore contents, is the min. IL, which is easily reached with a crafted set in the case of extremes and savage. For ultimates, well, they still need to clear the tier of the ultimate they want to do, thus acquiring gear sets and items to prepare for the ultimate in question, at this point in time, most BiS pieces to tackle an ultimate are from dungeons anyways, this last step of the relic isnt even the optimal weapon anymore because of the way the status distribuition is made.

So my question to you is: If you believe a relic is a catch up weapon, what endgame content does the game have that the player can't access unless they have a relic in hand? If the answer is "none" its because there's simply no catching up the relic offers (and if you say savage/ultimate then you are objectively wrong, since they are not required to enter/clear said content).

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Originally Posted by Jargal

Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, its an achievement as much as a clear and BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame, to be able to do extremes and savages (you can easily prog these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

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Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Other than the arbitrary time gates, this sounds a lot like previous relics. Collect currencies or items from specific FATEs, or in the case of Eureke NMs, then turn in for a weapon.

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Well... the part left out is in FFXI the currency had to be obtained from Dynamis which at the time was accessible once per week as basically a large scale raid that I think had a player cap around a full Bozja Instance. Not sure if they ever changed that later since the last time I played was during the cycle of that mini expansion with the naughty moogles.