The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Having ways to screw up makes it feel rewarding when you don't screw up.

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To you.

Answer me this question if no others:

Can you understand that some people do not enjoy the things you do but enjoy other things?

Some players like Jobs that are easy and they can feel good about playing, feel like they're contributing to the team's effort even if they're lower skill or mess up their Job. Can you understand, at least on an "IN THEORY I could see it that way..." level, that some people enjoy something you do not and do not enjoy something that you do? I'm not asking this to hammer you or insult you. I'm just curious if it's something you do actively realize or if you don't and actually more think that everyone does enjoy what you do.

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EDIT: For a little perspective, I do.

I get that people like different things than me.

My old FC we had a guy who derived TREMENDOUS joy about perfectly executing his opener or his burst window. He'd make sure we heard it in voice chat, lol

I'd never want him not to have the option to do that.

It's because I understand different people like different things that I advocate for the spread/change 3(4) position.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And still clear Savage?

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Frankly, if a person can't be bothered to hit more than 1 buttons for the majority of their actions, nor meaningfully engage with more than it and "hit the oGCDs on CD, give or take the few seconds to the mechanical cue", they're not likely to be the sort to enjoy Savage for anything other than the credit of having cleared (been carried) through or the gear that's useless elsewhere for anything but epeen.

Nor do they need to be able to have the same performance as everyone else when doing only that.

Those who don't enjoy the combat anyways aren't a group we should be catering the design of skill ceilings towards, especially given how likely it is to simply turn everything else into simply a worse choice (far more work and less reliability for the same best-case results simply because the one job's floor is tuned to equal anyone else's ceiling).

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Again, this is an argument I've never made.

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But you have. Repeatedly.

You have repeatedly asked for one job to be left as is -- to specifically not benefit from improvements possible for the role.

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I'd be sacrificing SGE, AST, and SGE - just so you can have more fun

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So what this really comes down to, is what, that you want to be able to do as much the ceiling of any deep kit with a bare minimum of effort, and so WHM has to be held back to a bare minimum just because you would otherwise feel bad that you could have done more?

Well, at least I'm glad we've dispensed with this hypothetical "majority" of players who are "entirely satisfied" with healers as is and can see what's what now.

All that malms long of essay...

Remind me again why this is pointless to argue... oh yeah, this post:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Don't worry, you have me for that. I don't feel bad about it. Because I feel like at this point I've seen every single angle on the Sylphie attack vector. I'm beyond over it and uninterested in a "good faith discussion" about it. Because there really isn't common ground. You see, every discussion in this vein starts seemingly neutral. I want X, they want Y, there's a vague attempt to describe a world where X and Y have their time in the sun. But push them on it even a little bit and they start stamping their feet and revealing what they actually want: not X. They don't want Y. They want -not X-. Suggest a skill ceiling and the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins.

These people don't want low skill floors. They want nonexistent skill ceilings. They don't want accessible content, not really. What they want is healing to be an easy path to free stuff. Paying attention to your job's resources is bad. Even the existence of a suboptimal-but-still-present GlareMedica2 rotation that could satisfy the zero interactivity isn't enough. They want the lazy no-thought gameplay to be the optimal gameplay. They don't want to climb the mountain before them. They want to bulldoze it down, walk into the rubble, and declare they're at the peak now. They want an easy job that they can be told they're masters of by dint of unlocking the job stone.

Prod literally any Sylphie who claims they sympathize with the desire for more complex gameplay and that's the tantrum you're going to get. Every single time.

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I don't even know where to start with this...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Frankly, if a person can't be bothered to hit more than 5 buttons, they're not likely to be the sort to enjoy Savage for anything other than the credit of having cleared (been carried) through or the gear that's useless elsewhere for anything but epeen.

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What is it with all of you and arguments of the form "The only reason someone would <think thing I don't want> is if they <insult>"?

When I have friends running Savage say "Ren, we need a healer!", I go because I enjoy the company of friends and want to help them out. There's no "credit" on my mind, or even gear, honestly (though my OCD does like being able to get a second ring that isn't 10 ilevels behind anything else). Also, Savage gear isn't useless anywhere that isn't synced. What you mean is isn't NECESSARY, not "that's useless".

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Nor do they need to be able to have the same performance as everyone else when doing only that.

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Nor do they need not to. What's your point?

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Those who don't enjoy the combat anyways

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They enjoy the combat as it is right now.

That would imply they are the people we should be catering the design towards. Which is literally what the game is doing right now.

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But you have. Repeatedly.

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You're going to have to quote the specific argument - I said this to you several times because you claimed several times I made arguments I have not made.

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You have repeatedly asked for one job to be left as is

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...I have.

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-- to specifically not benefit from improvements possible for the role.

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Find one quote from me in this entire thread where I said "I want one job to be unchanged so it doesn't benefit from improvements".

Find me making that argument one time. That specific argument.

Remember, to me, your proposed change is a downgrade, not an upgrade. It's an dis-provement, not an improvement. Since I see what you're asking for as making the Jobs worse and less fun, how could I be arguing that not changing a Job is so it doesn't benefit from an improvement when I don't see what you're proposing as an improvement?

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So what this really comes down to, is...

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No. Sometimes I like to play different things, and from time to time that means I like to play DPS - in which case I get on RDM or SMN, btw - and sometimes I Tank - I often enjoy that more, actually, than playing a red DPS Job.

There's no point where I want, for me, to have as much of a skill ceiling blahblahblah feel bad blahblahblah.

Now, while we're on the subject of "made up highly insulting personal attacks on others instead of understanding other players like different things than we do", I could just as easily argue that you want this change because you are selfish, want only your playstyle to be allowed, want only you and those like you to have the clears and epeen gear so you can flex around the Limsa Aetherite and look down at people, and you are selfish and lack any sense of compassion for anyone else, such that you don't care about other players, who is harmed by your actions, as long as you've got yours, you're happy and screw everyone else.

...if I was going to make up an insult and slap it all over you instead of just saying "Shurrikhan likes things I don't like, and so I want there to be a Job in the game that plays the way she wants so she can get enjoyment playing the game, too".

I wonder, which of our positions is the more compassionate, caring, friendly, and benevolent here...

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Well, at least I'm glad we've dispensed with this hypothetical "majority" of players who are "entirely satisfied" with healers as is and can see what's what now.

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Yes, we can:

That you are a selfish and mean person who doesn't care about anyone else as long as you get what you want.

...oh, we weren't playing the hypothetical insult game? You were engaging in a rampant ad homenim fallacy and TOS violation of being disrespectful to other posters because I've beaten your arguments so thoroughly you have no other recourse?

Glad we got that cleared up. Because that's what just happened.

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Aside: Now I remember why I stopped posting on these forums...

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

All that malms long of essay...

Remind me again why this is pointless to argue... oh yeah, this post:

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If you were replying to me, that's the weakest response possible.

All Semirhage said there is "Everyone I don't agree with is a baby throwing a tantrum", which is the worst kind of "argument" possible.

"Everyone I don't agree with is invalid, so I'm going to invalidate them, say they want things they don't want, tell other people what their mind is even though they've told me otherwise, and insist I know people better than they know themselves - while also knowing myself better than they know me - thus I can disregard their position because they're a whiny baby throwing a tantrum."

That's not an argument, it's an excuse.

That's proving to the world you've abandoned reason AND respectful discourse in favor of just insisting you're right and not just refusing to listen to anyone telling you you might not be for any reason, but also insulting them for good measure.

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Anyway, at this point, I'm done.

I've given you reasons to ponder why your ideas may not be the best, and I've given you a valid proposal to get MOST of what you want while not ruining the game for everyone.

The Devs aren't going to listen to this anyway, so have fun continuing to play EW healer in 7.0, 8.0, and beyond, friends! o/

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Originally Posted by Renathras

snip

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That was meant for the entire lengthy, pointless 'back and forth' essays from the past several pages---an analogy. You are merely a part of the discussion.

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[...]That's proving to the world you've abandoned reason AND respectful discourse in favor of just insisting you're right and not just refusing to listen to anyone telling you you might not be for any reason, but also insulting them for good measure.

Anyway, at this point, I'm done.

I've given you reasons to ponder why your ideas may not be the best, and I've given you a valid proposal to get MOST of what you want while not ruining the game for everyone.

The Devs aren't going to listen to this anyway, so have fun continuing to play EW healer in 7.0, 8.0, and beyond, friends! o/

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Kinda like what job devs have done to certain playerbase that makes up a part of the entire healer community, then. Oh how surprising...

If that's the same kind of treatment I get from my fellow player who's enjoying the current iteration of the role, then I see no merit in trying reason with them. Because like the devs, they cannot and/or will not listen, much less in trying to understand.

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Originally Posted by glamazon

The problem is this will never change until someone with power takes an interest.

For example:
If Yoshi p mained a healer job we would not be in this situation.

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Completing MSQ from fresh to the end is a starter for sure. Should be an AST, too.
Oh yeah, no job changing allowed >:U

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That was meant for the entire lengthy, pointless 'back and forth' essays from the past several pages---an analogy. You are merely a part of the discussion.

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...and yet...

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Kinda like what job devs have done to certain playerbase that makes up a part of the entire healer community, then. Oh how surprising...

If that's the same kind of treatment I get from my fellow player who's enjoying the current iteration of the role, then I see no merit in trying reason with them. Because like the devs, they cannot and/or will not listen, much less in trying to understand.

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You address this directly to me, despite the fact that my posts have clearly shown I HAVE and DO listen to your side of the argument, and UNDERSTAND it as well.

If you read any of my posts at all, you'd see me repeatedly propose that there be changes made to healers to accommodate people that want a different playstyle. Because unlike the people I'm arguing against, I understand that other people like things I don't like, and I want them to be happy, too.

I'm actually the only person in this thread not doing what you're accusing me of. /shrug

There's merit in trying to reason with me - yet you aren't. Instead you're insulting.

EDIT:

I guess this is the stage of the "discussion/debate" where it devolves into the people unable to counter a better argument attacking the person making the argument. As such, it's run its course.

As I said, the Devs aren't listening ANYWAY, so I guess it isn't relevant. My exasperation with you guys isn't malice, it's exasperation. The game's currently a way that many find acceptable. You want to make it into something else than it is and something many wouldn't find acceptable. And you reject any compromise which gives you some of what you want but not all of what you want. The end result will simply be you getting none of what you want.

People tend not to accommodate folks who make demands and accept no middle-ground, or insist getting their initial ask (which they move on to ask for even more) is somehow the middle ground instead of their opening bid.

In the end, the game is what it is.

People like it.

If you want change, you have to accommodate those people.

If you refuse to do so, you get no change.

And that's the state of the game - and the way the world irl works as well.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

If you were replying to me, that's the weakest response possible.

All Semirhage said there is "Everyone I don't agree with is a baby throwing a tantrum", which is the worst kind of "argument" possible.

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It's completely true, though. Look at what the thread has become. Every interaction began cordial, but every statement about the poor quality of healer gameplay is interpreted as an attack of your character and an insult to the "little guy." Every response becomes a novel on how everyone else in the room is crazy and doesn't understand what they're talking about. No one understands that you're the hero here trying to teach them why their opinions are so wrong and why yours is so right. No one else can see the light, but you can. And no one seems to appreciate that, even though you're sacrificing SCH, AST, and SGE out of the goodness of your heart for us, the highest charity.

These are not the responses of someone who's willing to have a calm, engaging good faith discussion. They are, ultimately, a tantrum of someone who is unwilling to yield an inch.

Roe and I have gone back and forth many times of this forum, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing. And never have we disagreed and started attacking each other at the throat, claiming the other's opinion as slander at every step. That's what a discussion that doesn't devolve into a tantrum looks like.

And Semirhage is entirely correct. It's been argued many many times that this expansion of gameplay and depth for the healers could ultimately result in, let's say 25% of your current DPS potential is moved to your additional actions, and spamming your filler spell can get you 75% of the way there. Thus if you want to continue playing WHM the way you'd want to, it would be entirely feasible for you to do so, and no one would be the wiser. Almost every aspect of the game doesn't even ask that of you since there are no enrage timers on everything below EX. It'd be more than enough for EX, and also even doable in Savage after a few weeks. But that's not the point. It's not about having the flexibility to play the way you want, your way needs to be the best way because anything else would be sacrilege.

That's why people continue to bring up the point that, whether you realize it or not, what you ultimately want is to be able to "bulldoze the mountain, step into the rubble, and claim that you're at the peak," wanting the satisfaction of performing your job at its highest without having to put in 40% of the effort all of your teammates are expected to. If this wasn't true, then you wouldn't be bothered by having the option of WHM's additional rotation actions and be content playing the way you want to, because that would be entirely allowed, and all of us would encourage you to do so.

And that is not me putting words in your mouth. It's just deductive reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Remember, to me, your proposed change is a downgrade, not an upgrade. It's an dis-provement, not an improvement.

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If just having more available to your kit than just what we have now --which, for the content you're doing, there is no requirement to fully utilize-- is necessarily a downgrade to you worth limiting any number of jobs, then yeah, we're probably never going to see eye to eye.

You can do most floors of Savage with about an eighth of the existing kit. If you want it to stay easy... it would remain so anyways.

What's been most popularly suggested without isolating any particular healer to be capped shorter is simply for healers to get a higher rDPS ceiling through optimizing a deeper downtime kit and for less of the HPS to fall to rigidly timed oGCD (which would actually make the floor lower, since it wouldn't be so reliant on a bloated assemblage of oGCDs).

You want there to remain 1 Glare Mage; you'd still have 4 jobs, though, for which you could put just as little thought into downtime and still do fine even in almost every Savage fight.

And if you were expecting to be able to swap to a job you're completely unfamiliar with and do Ultimate, let alone near-optimally... why should that be a thing at all? Why does that need to be pandered at the expense of balance among other jobs?

Shurrikhan - Since this discussion is happening in other places (here and on ffxivdiscussion) related to another Job; extra niche buttons aren't a problem. PLD has Shield Bash, which actually has a use in Deep Dungeons. If you were asking for extra buttons that people legitimately don't have to interact with if they don't want to, this would be a different discussion.

Shield Bash IS a good example of added complexity that isn't required.

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Ty - I'm trying not to respond to you until you stop the sniping, but when someone says I just want carries, yes, that is a personal attack on my character, not a reasoned rebuttal to my arguments or a cordial statement on healer overall gameplay. Can you admit that?

EDIT: Indeed, re-read your own post! Those aren't reasoned arguments or cordial comments on the state of healer play.

"becomes a novel on how everyone else in the room is crazy""No one understands that you're the hero here"
"No one else can see the light, but you can."
"ultimately, a tantrum of someone who is unwilling to yield an inch."

(This last one is the most absurd one - I'm willing to yield 75% of healers to you! That's a hell of a lot more than an inch. Meanwhile, what are you willing to yield here? What are you proposing yielding to me and those like me? Literally nothing other than people who don't like it can "be bad". When you aren't outright telling them to quit the game, that is. You do recall you did that earlier in this discussion, do you not? How you could even type that seriously is beyond me. If I was "unwilling to yield an inch", I'd be arguing that NONE of the healers change and that healing as a whole never change, either. Neither of which I've done. That is what "unwilling to yield an inch" looks like. Willing to yield 75% is not only willing to yield an inch, it's offering you a compromise that is more than fair and more than tilted to your benefit. That statement of yours is absurd to the point of farce by even a cursory examination of this discussion and our expressed viewpoints, as well as highly hypocritical, given your own unyielding position and statements. If you meant it legitimately, you need to reexamine your entire understanding of this discussion.)

I could go on, but tell me which of those is a cordial comment on the state of healer play and not an attack on me? I suppose that's the reason you agree with Semirhage. Because you are engaging in the same kind of petty insult as a substitute for argument.

(Seriously though, I could go through that entire post you made and rebut every point. There's no point, since you won't listen anyway and will go on as if your points weren't contested. But it wouldn't even be difficult since my own posts and position already have done so, you just ignored that, too.)

"And that is not me putting words in your mouth."

...audacious of you to say this, as that's exactly what it is you did. Perhaps a bit of Freudian slip there as subconsciously, even you realized it was exactly what you were doing.

You cannot use "deductive reasoning" to determine people's positions when people are outright telling you what their positions are, and they do not agree with your supposed deduction. When people tell you what they believe, believe them. Further, deductive reasoning does not, in fact, support or dictate that conclusion.

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But anyway, again, not to hammer the point but...it is what it is:

This is the way FFXIV is. You guys aren't getting what you want.

And you certainly won't get it with that uncompromising, unyielding position you have. Yoshi P clearly does not want to alienate people playing healers now moreso than people already are, nor drive anyone away from the role. Your proposals would do those things, so he's not going to do them. You can argue all you want the role will bleed people if it doesn't change, but it will lose people if it changes the way you want, and likely more people. You have no way of knowing.

If you want to have any shot at such changes, you have to be willing to yield and compromise and embrace solutions like mine as ways to get at least something you want.

Because the alternatives here aren't "you get all of what you want" or "you give up 1 thing you want". The choices are "you give up 1 or some things you want" vs "you get nothing".