Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

Yet another painful-to-see hot take right after the whole 'guise we should have duty finder tiering'.

Again the answer to your woes has been handed to you on a several platter several times by different people: enter as premade.

Like, I get the frustration. I've had encountered tanks who won't AoE, tanks who won't use stance, healers who only cast cure, healers who don't dps, dps who don't aoe, dps who don't stop dying. What I do is not dismiss them right-away but offer advice. Try to help. And I find that if you word things nicely people tend to listen -- i've seen a WHM go from cure/medica spamming at the start of a dungeon to using holy and cure II at the end of it. I've seen tanks adjust and begin using AoEs, pull bigger, use cooldowns better. I've seen DPS doing their rotations semi-competently after a few pulls.

And there are those who don't improve, or bite back when given advice. At which point you have two options: leave, or kick. If you personally are offended by the other player's conduct but the rest of the party doesn't mind? Leave. If you feel like the entire party is fed up? Kick.

People who are doing (or not) 'bare minimum' might be lazy, but they might also just be unskilled and/or not given the proper guidance. Or they might be having issues irl (hardware, situational, emotional) that might be barring them from doing what you'd consider 'ideal'. They might also be hampered by the actions of another person in the group (I once kept dying in Breach because other people kept on getting me killed)

So yes. Take a seat please.

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So its okay for one group to be toxic and grief another portion of the the player base? Its okay for a section of the player base to be taken advantage of? Pretty bad take.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

So its okay for one group to be toxic and grief another portion of the the player base? Its okay for a section of the player base to be taken advantage of? Pretty bad take.

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You're the one here going 'i'm being taken advantage of' simply because another person is not performing up to what standards you yourself have set. That is a bad take. And, again, you have more than enough the tools on hand to avoid this if you want to actually do something about it - - namely, you can run as a premade, or leave a duty, or kick the offending individuals[1]. Furthermore you can file a report for harrassment if someone is actually being toxic and griefing you.[2]

And I did mention that people who are doing bare minimum (or not) might not necessarily be doing it with the intent of 'having a free ride' - - - in my experience the people who do this are few and far between. Most of the time people just need guidance and/or patience, people on average get better with time. I try to help them, and see good results most of the time, and it probably helps that I don't get annoyed when people mess up and I do honestly like teaching people.

You think too highly of yourself and fuss too much about others, honestly. Just chill down. It's duty finder of all things, there's no need to get particularly heated about it. If people are consistently 'leeching' on you in party finder content like extremes and savages? You have a platform to stand on. Duty finder? Yeah no.

[1] - make sure there is an actual valid reason for the kick, like someone being offline, refusing to play (as in, not participating at all), or if the party just straight up can't clear because of them (like being a gladiator in dohn mheg, or wearing level 20 gear in a level 41 duty)
[2] - It must be an actual and provable case of griefing, like aiming cleaves with the intention of wiping the party, rescuing people into AoEs, hurling slurs at the chat, and the like.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

You're the one here going 'i'm being taken advantage of' simply because another person is not performing up to what standards you yourself have set. That is a bad take. And, again, you have more than enough the tools on hand to avoid this if you want to actually do something about it - - namely, you can run as a premade, or leave a duty, or kick the offending individuals[1]. Furthermore you can file a report for harrassment if someone is actually being toxic and griefing you.[2]

And I did mention that people who are doing bare minimum (or not) might not necessarily be doing it with the intent of 'having a free ride' - - - in my experience the people who do this are few and far between. Most of the time people just need guidance and/or patience, people on average get better with time. I try to help them, and see good results most of the time, and it probably helps that I don't get annoyed when people mess up and I do honestly like teaching people.

You think too highly of yourself and fuss too much about others, honestly. Just chill down. It's duty finder of all things, there's no need to get particularly heated about it. If people are consistently 'leeching' on you in party finder content like extremes and savages? You have a platform to stand on. Duty finder? Yeah no.

[1] - make sure there is an actual valid reason for the kick, like someone being offline, refusing to play (as in, not participating at all), or if the party just straight up can't clear because of them (like being a gladiator in dohn mheg, or wearing level 20 gear in a level 41 duty)
[2] - It must be an actual and provable case of griefing, like aiming cleaves with the intention of wiping the party, rescuing people into AoEs, hurling slurs at the chat, and the like.

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I find this line of reasoning questionable. "Oh they just need guidance and a patient hand!" Its absurdly easy to read your tooltips, or take five minutes are look at a rotation chart. You follow that, boom you are completely passable. I am not asking for Savage/Ultimate level performance, just for other players to hit their buttons in the correct order or just hit them at all. However, this seems to be too "hard", as about half of all my roulette runs have multiple players leeching or not contributing. SE needs, at the minimum, introduce more roadblocks for a player to pass before they get let out to general population. Just to make sure they aren't braindead.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I find this line of reason questionable. "Oh they just need guidance and a patient hand!" Its absurdly easy to read your tooltips, or take five minutes are look at a rotation chart. You follow that, boom you are completely passable. I am not asking for Savage/Ultimate level performance, just for other players to hit their buttons in the correct order or just hit them at all. However, this seems to be too "hard", as about half of all my roulette runs have multiple players leeching or not contributing. SE needs, at the minimum, introduce more roadblocks for a player to pass before they get let out to general population. Just to make sure they aren't braindead.

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I think your claims of "half" of your roulette runs being plagued by "leechers" questionable and speaks more of how you see others rather than how others actually are. And on tooltips, sometimes they can be confusing/misunderstood (I have had to explain many times to different people that Arm's Length slows enemy attack rate (Slow) and not their movement speed (Heavy) and that's why it makes for a good defensive GCD). Sometimes people can see the numbers and not have the pieces click together until someone nudges them, or they might have misread and needed someone to point them at it again. Sometimes tooltips can even be outright harmful (Freecure). That you can weave OGCDs is intuitive enough for those who have played the game a while but nothing in the tooltips make that crystal clear to new players.

Oh yes, sometimes lag causes people to mess up GCDs / combos.

So yes, sometimes people need help and, as I have said, a gentle hand does wonders. I've had very good results with that -- and that I've seen people get better does mean that my line of reason isn't entirely questionable, my approach works, and that it's best to not outright assume the worst of people unless proven otherwise.

And push comes to shove? Look at those options I've enboldened for you in the reply you've quoted above.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

I think your claims of "half" of your roulette runs being plagued by "leechers" questionable and speaks more of how you see others rather than how others actually are.

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I run tons of content rarely have problems. Yes it certainly does.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

You're the one here going 'i'm being taken advantage of' simply because another person is not performing up to what standards you yourself have set. That is a bad take. And, again, you have more than enough the tools on hand to avoid this if you want to actually do something about it - - namely, you can run as a premade, or leave a duty, or kick the offending individuals[1]. Furthermore you can file a report for harrassment if someone is actually being toxic and griefing you.[2]

And I did mention that people who are doing bare minimum (or not) might not necessarily be doing it with the intent of 'having a free ride' - - - in my experience the people who do this are few and far between. Most of the time people just need guidance and/or patience, people on average get better with time. I try to help them, and see good results most of the time, and it probably helps that I don't get annoyed when people mess up and I do honestly like teaching people.

You think too highly of yourself and fuss too much about others, honestly. Just chill down. It's duty finder of all things, there's no need to get particularly heated about it. If people are consistently 'leeching' on you in party finder content like extremes and savages? You have a platform to stand on. Duty finder? Yeah no.

[1] - make sure there is an actual valid reason for the kick, like someone being offline, refusing to play (as in, not participating at all), or if the party just straight up can't clear because of them (like being a gladiator in dohn mheg, or wearing level 20 gear in a level 41 duty)
[2] - It must be an actual and provable case of griefing, like aiming cleaves with the intention of wiping the party, rescuing people into AoEs, hurling slurs at the chat, and the like.

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Or 3 say nothing and quietly remove them from the group.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

You could play a single player game.

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I would argue that the people who refuse to learn how to play the game should play a single-player game instead.

But then who am I kidding? There isn't a single-player game on earth that caters to people who don't wanna learn how to play the game the way XIV does. Imagine if Mario presented you with a "very easy" option every time you die. Yeah right!

FFXIV is a uniquely casually atmosphere where the very worst among us are coddled and people with standards are ostracized actively by game management.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There isn't a single-player game on earth that caters to people who don't wanna learn how to play the game the way XIV does. Imagine if Mario presented you with a "very easy" option every time you die. Yeah right!

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Actually, a lot of games have an "easy" mode so that you can decide you don't want to have to play well to beat the game. It's pretty standard.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I run tons of content rarely have problems. Yes it certainly does.

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Same here. I may not have the thousands and thousands of dungeons and trials under my belt that some people do, but I have been playing the game for years and have done almost every piece of standard content via DF. When I encounter the rare issue, I'll offer advice and, if it's not taken, the run turns from a 12 minute clear into a 20 minute clear. It's not the end of the world and I don't feel personally attacked by someone else's poor play (especially since I'm well aware my play may be seen as poor by others too). I can count the number of truly disastrous groups on one hand and, in those extremely rare cases, I've initiated a kick vote and/or just left on my own accord.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I would argue that the people who refuse to learn how to play the game should play a single-player game instead.

But then who am I kidding? There isn't a single-player game on earth that caters to people who don't wanna learn how to play the game the way XIV does. Imagine if Mario presented you with a "very easy" option every time you die. Yeah right!

FFXIV is a uniquely casually atmosphere where the very worst among us are coddled and people with standards are ostracized actively by game management.

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Are you being sarcastic? I think you're being sarcastic but I can't tell in text. Don't all the new mario games give you like the super duper shiny suit that makes the level WAY easier if you die too much?