SCH needs some nerfs

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

You have the right the be angry.
But... don't deform reality.

Devine Benison, Presence of Mind, Plenary indulgence, Assize, Thin Air are single unique ability.
While some needs a great rework because, it's sounds like good on the paper (plenary), that's still unique.

This isn't because WHM needs help that those skills suddenly vanished.
And no, this is not an argument to say "whm's fine", but because you say he has nothing exclusive... well it still does.

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They may be unique abilities but I think the person you replied to was pointing out that whm doesn't really bring anything useful (<-- important keyword) that the other 2 healers can't. They can certainly bring big powerful heals but in content that doesn't need it it's kind of a waste. The other 2 healers can at least bring something that increases the overall rdps of the group which is what people generally prefer.

Edit: If they do something that increases the synergy between whm and the other healers I could see it working out though. Example a Deploy POM.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

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Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

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The thing is in a vacuum WHM still has the strongest pDPS of any healer because Stone IV is the highest potency nuke. With a relatively small dps buff to WHM and some more GCD healing coming from AST and SCH I could definitely see WHM pDPS at least making it a reasonable choice to bring instead of a universally regarded detriment.

I think at this point the only potential rDPS that WHM could bring would be the indirect rDPS buff of a faster kill. SE has made it clear that they aren't going to give it any party-boosting ability so the alternative is to make it the true "BLM of the healers" and buff it's own damage instead. A selfish healer may not be meta but it could at least be a reasonable choice instead of a truly questionable one. I say this as someone with a WHM in my static that I love. As much as I would never pressure her to go AST I can objectively see how it isn't doing us any favors.

If we acknowledge that WHM pDPS needs a buff the question then becomes how much of one? That's why I would request SCH specifically be reigned in, to close the gap between the healers to make the requisite WHM buff a smaller one and thus minimize the change to healer dps overall by as much as possible.

Glad I explained well enough though, most of these are typed out quick on my phone at work so I'm glad I got my point across xD

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

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In a post before you said SCH brings more pDPS than AST but it doesn't. With the new AST changes in 4.3 and the changes to Miner Arcana in 4.4 AST will bring more pDPS than a SCH with average lord luck. The only reason AST is doing less than SCH in some fights is because they are forced to use the tome weapon for BiS (which isn't really that good Crit/Pie) instead of the raid weapon, while SCHs got a pretty good raid weapon. And ASTs are playing for the party not themselves, if an AST were to play selfishly you'd see a much bigger gap between DPS. I'd say SCH is more balanced than AST in it's current state as well because everything a SCH does has a equivalent exchange(?) system to it. If you want to Indom or Excog you're giving up 150 potency/1200 MP to use them because you're losing an Energy Drain. This is the main reason why SCH abilities aren't used much in the high end environments unless they're saving a GCD which is barely a 70 potency gain.

While ASTs can just use Earthly Star every 60s, Collective every 90s and Essential Dignity every 40s. You overestimate SCHs abilities way too much and underestimate ASTs just by reading your responses and don't really understand just how strong AST is. AST in it's current state is the reason SCHs can get away with not having to GCD heal or use their aetherflow stacks at all because ASTs kit is just so powerful.

SCH needs a nerf on the fairy but that's about it. Everything else in SCHs kit is a double edged sword because you lose potency regardless of what you do.

Nerf embrace or get rid of it and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing and you'd have a pretty well balanced job. A passive single target regen that you can control for the whole fight without the cost of resources is too strong and is the sole reason SCHs are brought aside from the rDPS.

Actually, weaving solutions would make a difference for White Mage. I mained AST a bit, and I was so happy to move at the end of my Malefic cast, and still be able to Draw, or any oGCD.
When I do some roulettes or normal raids in WHM, I feel so SSSSSLLLLOOOOOOWWWW.
A slight pDPS buff and a 1.5sec cast time on stone could have fixed it in 4.4 - I don't see them doing too much for 4.5.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

In a post before you said SCH brings more pDPS than AST but it doesn't. With the new AST changes in 4.3 and the changes to Miner Arcana in 4.4 AST will bring more pDPS than a SCH with average lord luck. The only reason AST is doing less than SCH in some fights is because they are forced to use the tome weapon for BiS (which isn't really that good Crit/Pie) instead of the raid weapon, while SCHs got a pretty good raid weapon. And ASTs are playing for the party not themselves, if an AST were to play selfishly you'd see a much bigger gap between DPS. I'd say SCH is more balanced than AST in it's current state as well because everything a SCH does has a equivalent exchange(?) system to it. If you want to Indom or Excog you're giving up 150 potency/1200 MP to use them because you're losing an Energy Drain. This is the main reason why SCH abilities aren't used much in the high end environments unless they're saving a GCD which is barely a 70 potency gain.

While ASTs can just use Earthly Star every 60s, Collective every 90s and Essential Dignity every 40s. You overestimate SCHs abilities way too much and underestimate ASTs just by reading your responses and don't really understand just how strong AST is. AST in it's current state is the reason SCHs can get away with not having to GCD heal or use their aetherflow stacks at all because ASTs kit is just so powerful.

SCH needs a nerf on the fairy but that's about it. Everything else in SCHs kit is a double edged sword because you lose potency regardless of what you do.

Nerf embrace or get rid of it and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing and you'd have a pretty well balanced job. A passive single target regen that you can control for the whole fight without the cost of resources is too strong and is the sole reason SCHs are brought aside from the rDPS.

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You should just post on your main =p It might help your argument some more due to respect level, to be perfectly honest~

Also I wish I could AFK during during/after Panto2 but my team will never be that good =p Thanks for the SCH CD advise though earlier. I'm still learning to play the job and it's driving me nuts.

[edit] I'm also going to add here that I feel the reward-to-effort ratio for AST is far too high and needs to be knocked down for the sake of healer balance.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

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SCH being able to ignore virtually all GCD healing is what currently allows SCH to rDPS as much as AST (which btw is only a thing because of how AST complements the SCH toolkit as someone mentioned earlier). If AST is 100% then SCH is 100%. Yes SCH's oGCD game makes for a different gameplay but the end result is the same rDPS.
Saying SCH is better because they spend less time healing than AST is beyond the point. It's not like they use that extra DPS uptime to pull away from AST, they use it to keep up with AST.

This thread is still alive, who knew. Someone should cast Bio II and Miasma on it, lol

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Actually, weaving solutions would make a difference for White Mage. I mained AST a bit, and I was so happy to move at the end of my Malefic cast, and still be able to Draw, or any oGCD.

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I want to agree, but I think doing that would just make WHM feel more like AST and I don't really want that.
Really they just need another instant GCD ability similar to SCHs Miasma II or Ruin II, and I do feel like Fluid Aura would be just the thing here if they put it on the GCD and gave it some damage.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I want to agree, but I think doing that would just make WHM feel more like AST and I don't really want that.
Really they just need another instant GCD ability similar to SCHs Miasma II or Ruin II, and I do feel like Fluid Aura would be just the thing here if they put it on the GCD and gave it some damage.

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I'm really thinking about "band aid" solutions. What should have been done along with AST changes.
Not so relevant in regards to 5.0 rework :)