Gonna be honest, I ain't reading that word vomit. You sounded deranged in your first paragraph. Sorry that bringing up the big bad evil WoW triggered you so hard, I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMagician
Still writes better morally grey characters than FFXIV. Still makes better set pieces than FFXIV - especially considering Endwalker's apocalypse being meaningless. Still does huge battles better than FFXIV.
Sorry not sorry if that triggers you.
#IllidanWasRight
Also this. My Azem and WoL would never forgive Venat for the atrocities she committed and the people she took away not just from the Unsundered, but from them as well. Yoshida can shove his mommy-loving fetish on me all he likes, that isn't my WoL in Endwalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
-
10-22-2022, 07:00 AMKaoru_Nagisa
-
10-22-2022, 08:52 AMStriker44Hahahahaha! Oh, that's rich! Excuse *wheeze* me while I *gasp* try to *chuckle* stop laughing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
This is common in practically every JRPG I can think of. Your character isn't "you" - you are playing the role of that character. I find it amusing when people play a JRPG and then complain that it has common elements of a...JRPG...Quote:
I would love it if Yoshi would stop taking away my character's agency and forcing them into ridiculous dynamics like the one the story prescribed for my character and Venat.
-
10-22-2022, 08:59 AMjameseoakesYes but most JRPGs make exploring the character of the main character a main part of the game, not make them a blank slate your meant to be free to use within a somewhat defined range and not thrown out at the very end of the the main story arcQuote:
Originally Posted by Striker44
-
10-22-2022, 09:02 AMBaconBits
Typical Striker44 moment.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm.../unknown_1.png -
10-22-2022, 09:10 AMjameseoakesHonestly I think this is getting to be a bit of a odd part of the story as given how close Azim and Venat are implied to be it seems very odd she doesn't seem have got him on side and which then makes her using him to make her plan at best cruelQuote:
Originally Posted by RukoBoshi
-
10-22-2022, 09:22 AMDevonEllwood
No idea why we have two threads going on about Endwalker discussion, and I guess this would belong in the other thread but I decided to put it here.
I don't have Venat as a character, but I hate that she's Hydaelyn. Venat is someone who is very into her own ideals. If she actually had intentions of helping the ancients, then she would have told them the truth. but she never did and the ancients remained in the dark. She stuck to her ideals that mankind should be "equal to Hermes's test" therefore she never intended to tell them and if they couldn't figure things out on their own and live through the despair, they would be sundered. Her ideals are playing fair to a genocidal idiot's game and to avoid a fate that happened on some other planet. We don't know if she took the "best" path because we never saw the outcome of her telling the truth. She even got people to sacrifice their souls to her without them even knowing fully what was going on because they liked and trusted her. She waited until Zodiark had halted the problem and restored life, then split up the world knowing full well many of the offshoots were just going to die. The souls in Zodiark were trapped in Zodiark .The sundered inhabitants lost their memories, their culture, and everything that made them them. Hades, Elidibus and all the other ascians were literally monsters of her own making.
She then proceeds to give the sundered every key possible to fix the situation, while giving the ancients none, only for her main plan to abandon the planet. If it were not for Zenos (great grandson of an ancient), Hades, Elidibus, the WoL would have died, died again, never made it to Elpis to get the last key and then fail and fail again. The fact that this person, who is a villain in every way possible, is Hydaelyn is what makes me hate the character. I was hoping that losing Hydaelyn would be sad, the sundering being a completely human accident or mistake.But I guess we can't have her being human and relatable, no has to be an all knowing powerful Mary Sue. But I guess it's fine since she's nice to us. Venat was a monster #NotMyHydaelyn
Also the end of days should have affected the whole planet, yes, but that would mean that Venat was wrong and humanity couldn't fight through their despair. Endwalker's own themes and push for Hydaelyn to be right was holding its own self back -
10-22-2022, 12:11 PMKaoru_NagisaI mean, at least people aren't treating Illidan in-world like some tragic hero who did all the atrocities he did for the sake of his brave little sparks. They treat him like the asshole he is, they treat him with distrust and wariness because of what he is and what he's done. He may be doing all he does for the sake of a good cause, but no one treats him like a hero or worship the ground he walks on or call him a savior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker44
Which is already miles better treatment of a morally grey/evil-leaning character than Endwalker.
Keep being triggered that people say WoW of all things has better writing than Endwalker, though. I'm sure one day Yoshi-senpai will notice you.
Yeah, this is pretty much my stance. I think Venat could have been a very well-written villain/villain-adjacent character, and I don't personally hate her as she is. I hate the way the writing bent itself over and into a pretzel just to defend what she did as being Correct and Right and Good and Out of Love.Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonEllwood
Write her how she is and let people react to her in a sensical manner, and I'd have no issues with her. -
10-23-2022, 02:10 AMVyrerusActually, their praying formed a forcefield of its own that had no relation to the Limit Break. Coincidentally right as her second Ultimate Fate hits. The second LB you're thinking of is part of the scripted fight given to the players after you defeat the Kaikodaimon. Along with the line, "Transcend your limits to survive!"Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
The fight goes on after the Scions' prayer field saves you to give you all of their prayer lines, popping up with the text message <Insert Scion Name Here>'s Prayers give you strength! Even though you don't get any stronger, nor gain any LB bars (And you can still even lose if your healers die).
It's more or less scripted to make up for the script discounting the Scions earlier to remove them from being used in the final fight. As the total sum of their powers were useless when used directly against Meteion. It was only by praying for the WoL and believing in the WoL almost like a deity that they could be useful to us in the end.
And even that is discounted in the end, due to the Zenos fight proving that we could have fought against Meteion with elevated personal strength. Spark of Hope gives us 6 more lives, and that means Meteion would have had to use Ultimate Fate 7 times in order to beat the WoL, if the WoL had been fighting with all of their might. -
10-26-2022, 01:18 PMTheodricI know I've said as much in the past, though that image never fails to make me laugh. So I'm going to quote it so it remains one of my final posts around these parts. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconBits
I won't rule out a potential return altogether though I've let my subscription lapse so my posting rights will run out any day now.
Needless to say there isn't really anything in the recent patch that appealed to me. I've always loathed Hildibrand and appreciated that it was locked away in its own little bubble rather than tied to major content. The latest batch of beast tribe quests continues the bizarre trajectory of making strawmen out of alien races/pushing some utterly bizarre 'themes'. Then there's the criterion dungeon desperately trying to sanitise Ul'dah's dark past.
With the Ascians/Ancients and Garleans cast off of the playing board there isn't much other than the Void that really interests me in the game these days and that, in itself, seems to be set to be the next target to be wrapped up in an all too neat little bow.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if that isn't the case - though even if it isn't, my complaints towards this game extend beyond the story. -
10-26-2022, 01:29 PMAwesomeJr44It's a shame to see you go, you're one of the most fair and intellectual posters on the forums, but hopefully you find greener pastures wherever you decide to head next. *gives a virtual bro hug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
-
10-27-2022, 03:48 PMReynTime
I have unsubbed too. Though I'll admit it's not the first time... I resubbed with expectations for variant/criterion.
It seems like a lot of people I know from my other circles have been losing interest in the game. Usually everyone gets excited for when new content gets introduced like this. This time it feels like most of them silently moved on. So there isn't a lot keeping me anymore. I was already pretty jaded with the game since Shadowbringers so...
The writing has gotten extremely formulaic, as if the gameplay wasn't already. And I'm frankly tired of this game's bizarre cultist community.
Unless a new mmorpg comes out that is closer to what I liked in XIV during anytime between the late patches of 1.0 and end of Stormblood... I'll steer clear from MMOs. -
10-27-2022, 04:21 PMaveyond-dreams
While I'm not unsubbed, my interactions with FFXIV the game itself are at an all time low. Log in every two weeks, click to turn in leves, then nothing. Rinse and repeat. My confidence in the current writing team has been destroyed, and due to the relay style way the patches are being written it's hard to say for certain whether or not 7.0 will be a story worth enduring. I'll judge that depending on how Hiroi wraps up Pandaemonium.
To echo what others have mentioned, I too have long since tired of this wonderful community that cannot accept change, good or bad, unless sanctioned by Yoshi himself. I'm not going to say that those people can't think for themselves, but you'd be forgiven for believing that. Speaking truth to power can only do so much when the powers at be decide to double down on everything that was criticized of them, from the childish preaching about hope to hamburgers, now in outer space.
FFXIV needs to get a grip. I only hope that in order for FFXVI to do well that FFXIV doesn't end up sinking as a consequence. Either way, Valisthea is a world that calls to me more than "Etheirys" does in its current form. Rejoin it, mash it up with the Void, do whatever. A cookie cutter planet where everyone is holding hands like they are right now is of no interest to me, not to mention how lacking it is in fantasy elements that were slowly destroyed over time.
Can't wait to go to Sanbreque next summer and play a real Final Fantasy game again. God willing all the "light-heartedness" that ruined FFXIV will be absent in FFXVI, along with the community that can't handle more mature storytelling.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/wp-content/...-Sanbreque.jpg -
10-27-2022, 05:24 PMGraeham
We will not be unsub now but will keep lighting the candle for the fallen guild of the No Shadow God. And be stocking the Universal Cafeteria with cheesieburger for the return in the patch 63. Garlemalding forever! Always Garlemalding!
-
10-27-2022, 11:12 PMkpxmanifestoDude, it kills me that your sig says "our principal is in violet."Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeham
-
10-28-2022, 07:07 AMAwesomeJr44
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Graeham is the forum's national treasure.
-
10-28-2022, 04:26 PMVyrerus
Sad to know there'll be no Theodric posts until/unless XIV gets better. You will be missed, and I guess by extension... is Lauront quit too? D:
-
10-28-2022, 06:26 PMKozhMaybe I'm being too sensitive about it, but I always hate when people acting like mentally challenged just to troll other people. Feels like it's offensive tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44
And it's not even funny in the first place. -
10-28-2022, 11:03 PMKaoru_Nagisa
I'm giving the game until 6.3~ and its minor patches to turn around in any capacity.
At this point, I'd simply be satisfied with the story getting better - instead of it continuing on this downward trend of sanitizing any problematic elements, defanging certain places or peoples, getting rid of any and all conflict via use of the WoL nuke, and never giving its long-time cast of characters a well-earned break so that we could have some new faces and personalities rotating in and out. Ultimately, I played all these years primarily for the story; the game has had a building list of problems, a death by a thousand cuts, but I ignored them or grit my teeth about them for the sake of the story I loved - up until it got flushed down the toilet with Endwalker. Without the story, there is very little keeping me invested in the game enough to play it.
I haven't decided yet whether I'll fully unsub come time, or if I'll simply yeet my extra retainers into the nether and delete all my characters except the one that has no real strong ties to any lore or area that the game has, or will, screw up. Easier to RP someone like that, at this point. My other main and longest-lived RP character has found new life and lore in ESO and WoW, so while I'll be sad to let go of her here, at least her entire backstory and lore in those games won't get torn apart because we can't have dangerous places or consequences in this one anymore. Deleting everyone save my main would let me drop down to an entry-level sub and pay bare minimum to SE.
Considering all the game really has to offer anymore is gpose and glamour, I may as well treat it like the bloated photography platform it is and pay a minimum sub to continue using it for that. Not that I've really had that much desire to do even that little, lately.
I've found more enjoyment in other games, and feel they are more worth 15$ a month subs than FFXIV has been in a long while. SE's continuing trend of bad decisions and poor content doesn't give me any hope for the future to get brighter. At least Blizzard is kind of trying, with Dragonflight; amazing what a massive loss in profits and unobstructed critique and complaints will do to get a company to pay attention.
Perhaps one day SE will get there. -
10-28-2022, 11:04 PMLustreEven funnier is the fact they think people don't know who it is. Best not to pay any attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
-
10-29-2022, 12:34 AMaveyond-dreamsAll I know is that Endwalker was our burning of Teldrassil. A bizarre twist to the story that the game nor its world needed, but unlike WoW we're likely to be denied the blessing of Endwalker's patches being cut short so that we can get out of this disaster expansion faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
-
10-29-2022, 01:46 AMAdamantini
Before my sub runs out i need to ask a question that is bothering me, about new beast tribe.
Doing the new beast tribe quests, we see two peoples from worlds that have ended. The "humans in armor" and the "otter people in diving suits". Weren't these two people supposed to be extinct?
I have to say that I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe I missed something. -
10-29-2022, 05:47 AMEgilTheStressedMageI think they explained it with them being complete reconstructions based on what was found in the Dead Ends. The entirety of Ultima Thule is this as well. I'm not going to go too far into it because I stopped caring when Yoshi thought Coincounter needed danger zones. Also as these are the same people that created Omega, it's really not that far off that they're capable of recreating life.................wish they would stop though as the worm can that will open is bottomless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantini
-
10-29-2022, 08:41 AMSassyAssassinHow do we know he’s acting though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
-
10-29-2022, 08:42 AMRestonance
Man, lucky people. Must be nice to be able to unsub. I'm still stuck with half-assed slaving away in HC1 prog. Once I finish up the next ultimate, I think it's time to put my WoL to rest. Everything's too sanitized and sterile to be fun anymore. I got other MMOs that have hooked me far deeper than 14 has anyways.
Theodric and co. were great fun to read on here. Gonna be sad to see 'em go. Was a great reason to pull up the OF and were one of the few people on here that still have some sanity when it comes this game. o7 -
10-29-2022, 10:13 AMAwesomeJr44When I say that Graeham is our national treasure, I don't mean that he's funny, for he is no laughing matter. Graeham is the ideal that the posters of the forum aspire to be. We've had many who have tried to follow in his footsteps. Deveryn, Atelier, VelKallor, Silverbane, and many more. They have come close, but all have failed. None can match the perfection that is Graeham. He is truly our role model in every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
-
10-30-2022, 10:22 PMDevonEllwoodPost history. They also stated they were "trying" when someone commended them on their broken English trolling in a now deleted thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyAssassin
I don't post very often but I do read what's going on on the forums since I have nothing better to do at work and it's more entertaining than reddit.
I've been doing the newest beast tribes and got a late start on them because I was not enthused to start. I don't know how they gave the robots more personality than most of the scions, but they did it. Positives: Minimal amount of rabbit, robot dialogue is good and pretty funny. Negative: Still a coin flip if they adhere to the "themes" of endwalker...
Forge ahead? No, no, give them what they want, reward them
People in robes and masks bad? Yes, always -
10-31-2022, 11:56 AMLunaxia
Seeing as the thread is rather listless at the moment and I have my sub back (Pandaemonium is doing some tremendous heavy-lifting when it comes to my interest in the game lately), I thought I'd share something that I've been wondering on and off since finishing EW: did they perhaps shelve a chunk of planned Garlemald content because it would reflect poorly on Emet's character, and after his popularity and the sudden upswing in player numbers during ShB, they chose to play it safe and cater to fanservice than paint him in his original darker shades of grey, thus potentially threatening a large part of what contributed to their success in the first place?
It seems to me there was more in the works prior to Garlemald's fall; the power plays for the throne, the civil war, Fandaniel's comments concerning Zenos' memories and that Emet-Selch might be behind them - which I dare to stretch to hinting at experimentation, along with the cloning - and regardless of how you may choose to look at it, any relatively lore-rich Garlemald content wouldn't have exactly cast him in the best light. However you may want to spin his reasons, his changes of heart, his soft spots, he created and used that empire for his own ends, manipulating an entire race of people by preying upon their vulnerability and latent desire for power and revenge into committing terrible atrocities against other nations, and ultimately, even if somewhat indirectly, set them up for the collapse of their society one way or another. I was actually surprised how light of a wrist tapping he gets during the Garlemald portion for this - the most noteworthy reference to him being in a sightseeing log entry - and there was a part of me that, as fond of him as I am, found his moral whitewashing in EW to be a bit disconcerting. His complexity was part of his appeal as a character, but the curious motives and emotional turmoil behind the flippant facade wound up stripped down into a grumpy heroic tsundere stereotype. I don't regret seeing Ancient Emet, and I won't deny I enjoyed him, but I wish his character had retained some of the depth, mystery and inscrutability that had made his original appearance so memorable. His moody affectation felt almost a little like lazy writing at times.
To see darker sides of Emet's character against the Garlean backdrop alongside his brighter portrayal pre-Sundering would have been interesting, but perhaps they feared the fans wouldn't think so? Or mayhap it simply boils down to what many of us have been griping about all along when it comes to Endwalker, and Emet was one casualty amongst many in oversimplifying the story and its characters to achieve their desired sugarcoated ending and inspirational message. Thoughts? -
10-31-2022, 01:52 PMMidareyukkiIf, if, that were the case. In this hypothetical scenario. And assuming your assessment of Emet Selch is correct. If I were reading a book with a character nuanced because of reasons like those, this is what I as a reader would think of them: I would say the writers are insecureQuote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
Because they're relying really hard on what gave them good publicity and made Emet Selch a memorable character. And I say "memorable character" rather than "good villain" because, to me, they're separate concepts and separate identities of Emet Selch. The Good Villain is the guy we had in early Shadowbringers: completely uncaring about whether we lived or died, affable toward us and manipulative. Someone whose backstory was tragic, but his motivations didn't justify the means, simply made him jump off the slippery slope. Rather than the villain being a stereotypical evil man, this guy was once a good guy. Or at least someone we would have befriended. He just had a really rough time, and because of that, he basically set aside any pretense and care. He views whatever remains as meaningless, and while he doesn't relish on it, views the suffering he inflicts as a necessary evil. One that, because he views the lives of the suffering as meaningless, has zero bearing on his moral compass as far as he can see.
The memorable character was that of a bitter old man who wanted nothing more than to chill and be respected among his peers. A no-nonsense serious face whose conversion to evil was simply because he was in the bad guy club. As in, "I'm in the bad guy club, I need to do bad things, but just because I'm bad guy doesn't mean I'm bad guy".
HOWEVER. at the end of Ultima Thule, he reiterates that he'd do it all over again. That he isn't remorseful of all the bad crap he got. But that's one line out of all the rest of his portrayal, meant clearly to "redeem" him and pass him off as someone respectable. It's all framed like he's a good guy deep down, even when the content of what he says is "I literally would nuke you guys right now if I could, but I can't so go on". He's always portrayed as someone who is fair and cordial to his enemies, though. Hence why even when he loses and admits his motivations are evil, he still sees your goal as being something you earned from him. So one could make the argument that they just explored him being fair even when he's an antagonist. The issue I take with this is that the game considers him to be redeemed, which... sure, it's what most fans feel, but it kind of ignores the consequences of what he did. We would not do this in real life.
And by pandering to this, it makes it look like the writers are insecure about having written a character people enjoy despite being evil. That they realized the hole they dug by making him likeable, and in capitalizing on why he's so likeable casually excuse the crap he's done.
Another way of showing insecurity is shirking responsability for what they've established. For whatever reason, be it because fans love the character and you want to give them a brighter outlook, or because of real-life biases and opinions of the author, they just didn't believe it necessary to harp on all the crap that's been shown with him as the origin point. For expansions we've been consistently told that Garlemald's expansionistic motivations stem from Emet's lies and nationalistic rethoric. We've seen the effects of Garlean hate and might through Ala Mhigo, Doma, Bozja and Werylt. And we know that the height of the Allagan empire came due to his machinations, as did the establishment of Eulmore as a power nation of decadence. It wasn't just "Oh I cutely blew up a world and nearly blew up this one for my God" like the story likes to present it. No, to lead those worlds into such a direction, he motivated a lot of torture, death and pain for people and didn't bat a single eye. For whatever reason, the devs insist on excusing those "smaller" but more realistic issues (nationalism, dictatorships and abuse of power are real-life threats, not dimensional merging...) in favour of the more fantastic sins. Because the other stuff is far too "real" and they thus feel insecure in writing these things, either because they don't know how to approach it or don't feel comfortable exploring them, and thus don't tend to focus on those things.
Now, these are criticisms of the way Emet is written, sure, but I'm saying it right now. This is hypothetical. I do see some of these as potential reasons why Emet is written the way he is, but a) I'm not thinking of every single interaction with Hades from start to finish, just his overall path and how it made me feel, which isn't enough to say whether that's what happened or not, b) this is again assuming I knew that that's what happened. That the authors really did beat around the bush with Emet past Shadowbringers and cast him in a better light. But there's no way for me to know, so I'm only relying on observations and purposely approaching them from that angle. My only observations are that Emet IS cast in a much more benevolent light in EW and they DO focus more on the fantastical crimes than the more realistic crimes. But as he does at least mention that he doesn't regret his antagonistic side and some more I might have missed, so I can't say for certain that's actually happening. Much less that that is the road they took.
What do you guys think of Emet's portrayal? And if it did indeed shift, why do you guys think it did? -
10-31-2022, 02:25 PMKozh
I think the writer being insecure is pretty spot on. It was so apparent in EW, but now that I lost my nostalgia goggles, I noticed that it has been that way since HW. They're so afraid of killing beloved characters (the final one is haucherfant). They always kill or sidelines characters that aren't as popular, like papalymo, minfilia, lyse, arenvald. And ever since shb, the writers have double down on their insecurity and prioritizing fanservice. Like in 5.3 when they decided to not kill the exarch because the fans love him. And then we get the biggest insecurity in the form of Venat. A character whose crime is so whitewashed nobody called her out..
Now regarding emet and EW... Even though I love him, I do agree that the game tried to "soften" him a bit too much. However, I'm not sure I agree with garlemald section getting shelved due to emet. Not because I don't think emet didn't make the suffer in the long run, but more because I expected EW to flesh out garlean civilian/non military stuff, and perhaps set up their next leader who will be able to save garlemald from their tragic situation.
@midare, honestly that single line from emet is kinda weird. He talk much about agreeing with venat etc, but then on the next scene he said his ideal is invincible. It's strange to me because his ideal is the opposite of venat, you can't have him agree with venat but then said that line, because it's contradicting.
At least that's what my view. -
10-31-2022, 03:32 PMXeronia
If I may I had always suspected Garlemald was the cut expansion premise (we know the original idea was to have the story conclude in 7.0, not 6.0) due to Stormblood being the black sheep of the family and how much a Garlemald expansion would be banking on stuff from that expansion's lore. I get the feeling after ShB they felt another Stormblood style war story would have killed the pacing. There could have additionally been some push to veer away from a war storyline due to real world events at that time.
Overall I feel EW was and still is a terribly paced mess of incomplete ideals when factoring in what came before it. I surely hope this expansion is just like this due to late changes and the next expansion is a bit more fleshed out. I admit my subscription at this point is to get an adorable space jellyfish and just in case auto demolition comes back as I have my own house and an FC house to save. -
10-31-2022, 06:04 PMKozh
Regardless of their reasoning, I'll forever be salty we were robbed of garlemald expansion. I just find it strange that Yoshi-p, who proclaimed himself as matsuno's fanboy, decided not to do any war stories because...They sort of fail on writing SB? So instead of learning from their mistake, they opt to not do it at all; and that's my biggest problem with them.
Ishikawa seems confident enough to write one or two more expansions (where one of it would be garlemald focused) before meteion reveal. It's truly unfortunate Yoshi-p we're against it. Heck, garlemald expansion doesn't even have to be a war centric. Maybe it could be a political story with spy flavour. Imagine if we have to infiltrate garlemald to look for fandaniel and zenos, while at the same time working with populates. -
10-31-2022, 09:25 PMKageTokage
At this point, I'm just really hoping they'll opt to go to Ilsabard in 7.x and cover some of the plot threads from the scrapped expansion there.
I'd very much like to see if perhaps some of the provinces have actually flourished under the Garlean occupation due to being ruled by a legatus who isn't a racist scumbag as opposed to more of the usual oppression. -
11-02-2022, 02:54 AMThenightvortex
As many people in this thread will be unsubbing or have already done so, here is a discord server if someone wishes to keep in touch.
https://discord.gg/9UtBdHjKkH -
11-07-2022, 11:32 AMLunaxiaSorry for the delayed reply (to the thread in general) - life has been very fun, if you catch my drift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
That's more or less the question I was posing - were the writers insecure? Perhaps as you say, they had intended to "lighten" (no pun intended... or maybe a little bit) him up all along. It's very possible. I couldn't make up my mind, honestly, which is why I was interested in others' opinions. Perhaps they really captured lightning in a bottle with Emet in ShB, and his subsequent characterisation was just more of what we usually get. But they do show they've really got in them on occasion to deliver great, nuanced characters and a gripping story - 3.0 and Pandaemonium in particular say hello - and Endwalker to me was such a let down compared to all the other expansion packs that it seemed more the exception rather than the rule, even if Emet and Amaurot were unusually spectacular high notes. Even Stormblood, which lags behind in public opinion, didn't necessarily feel out of place or struggle with bland, Disneyfied writing - it was more an issue of an identity crisis where it stretched itself too thinly in too many places. There's an identifiable thread running through the other games that connects them in terms of the tone of the plot's writing that just seemed to abruptly end with Endwalker (hah), and the reason for that being their trying to deliver a big, fan-pleasing finale to match what came before with ShB and believing the best way of achieving that was by playing it safe made the most sense, to my mind.
I'd forgotten about that line in Ultima Thule though - I think somewhere along the line I've unconsciously chosen to block that part out. What was it he said, exactly?
That's a very good point, and one I hadn't considered. They may have believed a military/ war-themed expansion would have been received poorly and went with what worked previously - i.e. a more fantasy-leaning direction. But the irony is that the Garlemald section was probably one of the best parts of EW, and after playing it I imagine such an EP would have played out more like HW than SB, which is far from a bad thing. Another thing that gives me cause to doubt that is I really would have thought they'd jump at the chance to flesh out the lore surrounding Emet's time in that region - given his popularity, it felt like an easy way to rope the fans into the story, but instead we really hear and see very little about any of it, even when it seems they established several starting points to explore. Why? Hmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeronia
-
11-07-2022, 11:49 AMMidareyukkiIt's the part where he and Hythlo leave after you tug at Meteion's heartstrings. Something along the lines ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
Again, what I felt at the time (even as someone who likes Emet Selch and understands there's more to him than the actions he's done), and taking it from the viewpoint you presented, it didn't feel like a benevolent farewell. While to many people it just seems like he's stubborn about wanting to bring everyone back, to some, especially to players whose native places were destroyed due to his machinations, it comes off as rather insensitive. Almost like he's saying "Yeah, I don't care if I knowingly and willingly caused mass murders a hundred times over. I'm still feeling justified in my actions."Quote:
"But more than that [having to live by Hydaelyn's design], the future you seek is not the past we loved. That is why we fought. And why I lost. But though you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate. Invincible."
Because keep in mind that one of his most famous spiels is him saying that he does not view us as truly alive. Therefore he cannot be convicted for murder. This is one of his ideals, which he claims are inviolate and that we have not changed his mind on.
While it's great that he holds us with some respect, and is benevolent enough to appear before us and urge us to explore Hydaelyn's world as he once did, it still comes off a bit "oof". Because in the middle of his ideals comes his primary justification to continue taking lives. And it's simply brushed off as "oh that silly Emet, still evil >w>".
However, that's my interpretation of his line. I don't remember if there's any other that would fit better, but as far as I can remember, that's the one that struck me the most. I was like "What do you mean you still feel justified? Dude, you murdered a bunch of people just for a chance to have your own back! Don't you have anything to say for that? We're just expected to believe you're the Kingdom Hearts villain-is-a-good-guy-now because of how you're behaving?". Because actions speak louder than words, and he did commit atrocities for which he apparently still feels the justification holds! Those were actions too, with far dire consequences than him telling us "I don't like it, but at least I concede defeat"... BUT I understand if other people have a different reading of that. Perhaps I'm looking too much into it, and I won't deny if people see differently.
Otherwise, yes, from your perspective and based on how I saw parts of the story, it did feel like the authors were insecure. But that was my interpretation of less positive parts of the story, and it's from the lens of a perspective that I obviously don't know whether it's true or not. Could just be the authors just thought that was fine? :| who knows -
11-07-2022, 12:38 PMjamjeeshoul77
The fact that this thread is still going after all these months makes me real sad for the writers. Endwalker wasn’t perfect but this thread feels like a contrarian circlejerk. Oh well. I loved it. I’ll always have fond memories of playing through it for the first time. I’ll never forget the final solo duty. Completey unexpected, it blew my mind. What a rush that was. I loved endwalker
-
11-07-2022, 12:51 PMKaoru_NagisaIf this thread makes you sad, then why bother posting in it and continuing to push it to the front page?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77
Good for you if you enjoyed it. Genuinely, I'm happy for people who can still enjoy the game in some way. But just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean it is free of severe problems, nor does it negate the disappointment and frustration many felt when playing through it or thinking on it after the 'magic' wore off.
Never going to understand those who feel the need to say "yeah well I loved it!" as if that somehow invalidates nearly 730 pages of discussion and critique on why it was not good for a lot of people. Go enjoy it then, if you loved it. None of us are stopping you. Only asking to not have our disappointment, frustration, and annoyance swept under the rug just because X forum poster totally loved it and thought it was the most amazing story ever and competes with classic literature in its awesomeness. -
11-07-2022, 01:10 PMLunaxiaI had to go back and rewatch it upon you reminding me, and the whole scene was as staggeringly awful as I remember (damn it, Midare, I'd almost managed to forget that "I bid them remember, but I'm the one who forgot!" line!) Apologies to the people who enjoyed it and found it moving, but good god, the entire scene was Emet's characterisation bouncing around the scene like a yo-yo so the writers could make use of his popularity and make him their mouthpiece. The almost gentle chiding of the woman who caused him to suffer absolute misery, the lighthearted buddy cop show banter between him and Hyth during the supposed emotional highlight of the entire series when everything they've fought and sacrificed for is at stake, those endless godforsaken theatre kid puns that should have died with Emet's Garlean facade and the subtle justifications for the nebulous story, claiming mortals had fared better than anything they could have achieved...Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
But to focus on that line in particular, because it is the most interesting - I do distinctly remember feeling very ??? upon hearing it, because I wasn't actually sure what the writers were trying to get at with it either. The first part, I actually really like as a stand alone quote - it feels very much like the Emet we defeated at the end of ShB, and the poignancy of that "and why I lost" line is beautifully heart-breaking, as if he's admitting aloud for the first time what we knew, but he had never allowed himself to think - that his heart had gone from the fight, and he had lost the will to continue. They could have ended it there.
But the ideals part baffles me. What ideals? Did Emet have ideals? I thought he was painted as a "by any means necessary" kind of guy adhering to his duty who had little regard for principles, morals, notions of good and evil - he frequently resented being seen as a villain, and seemed to view to everything through the lens of "is this useful to me?" rather than anything else. His ideals that the Ancients were superior? That the world should have been rejoined? As you say, were they genuinely trying to shoehorn in a quick "I don't regret any of the suffering I caused" in the same moment they were trying to make him a grudging protagonist?
The kindest interpretation I can give is him referring to his sense of duty to his people, meaning he would always have done whatever he could to save them, and that he still believed the past world was a better place... which isn't much better, but a little less of a spit-in-your-eye goodbye, I guess. -
11-07-2022, 01:22 PMMidareyukkiQuote:
Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77
:| I liked the story. I just know that there were less successful parts and parts that rubbed me the wrong way. And as many people have told me before, people are allowed to post their opinions on the forums. Keep in mind that both of my latest replies always make sure to point out that it's both hypothetical, personal and that it's possible reality wouldn't match. I was just entertaining someone else's perspective, which happened to agree with some of the takes I, personally, got from the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
And it's fine to enjoy the story. I'm sure there was another thread lurking around that was dedicated to praising it. Yet you don't see it being touted half as much. I wonder why... Still. The most obvious vitriolic answer is "because the forums love to complain and be negative, so all positivity is buried". And I got no good answer to that, I'm not the entirety of the forums, and I did try to make positive posts before.
Some people were frustrated at parts of the story that I wasn't. And some stuff I shine a more negative light because of how I personally interpreted a certain scene or two. But upon revisiting them, I start to understand why some people interpreted them as neutral or even positive. I won't shy away from criticising my own views. Emet Selch's quote that I posted doesn't need to be met with a negative outlook. Nuances of writing are hard to iron out, and there's only so much anyone can say. He's not real for us to ask him any further questions, nor are we playing a game where we were given such a luxury. Meaning you can interpret what Emet said differently than me. And at least I can agree that I might be looking into things a bit too much.
Ex falso quodlibet. The moment you have a false premiss, you can come up with anything. That's my stance on my last two entries.
I won't deny that some people are more negative than I might be, nor that I myself haven't posted that much here that could be met as positive. But, two things:
1 - I don't have to judge those people, nor do I have to judge you for being any more positive/negative than me.
2 - As many people love to point out, the forums are barely 1% of the playerbase. And overall, Endwalker was very well received. The only lamentable thing about this thread might just be that it's on the official platform. That's all.
But it's because of those two things that reacting to things with "Ugh, circlejerk, poor writers" is you doing the exact opposite face of the coin of what you complain.
It's good that people enjoy this story. At best we have people who want it to be improved upon, at worst we have people who just don't enjoy it anymore. All three are valid. If I think the writers got insecure at some point in the process, I'm not pointing fingers. I'd like them to be more comfortable with what they got, and wonder why that would be. I'm not out for their blood :p and hey... as English speakers say, "everyone's a critic".
I think so, at least from how he put it in Elpis and the rest. "By any means necessary" was just his method. A way to achieve his ideal. Which is the interesting part in Elpis, knowing that he wasn't a murder hobo before and held life in great esteem. When he got Tempered, that got warped, and so too did his ideal. Which is what rubbed me wrong at Ultima Thule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
"My ideals are inviolate, you didn't change them" made me feel like he was still clinging onto his latter ideals than the ones we discussed at Elpis. That he'd do it all over again given the chance. And "it" implied killing a bunch of people, which his elder self was disgusted by.
:x If that was the case, then I agree it was clumsy. On the virtue that there were better-executed references to songs in the game. Stuff that people quickly spotted. Usually lyrics. Good catch though Kazhar xD I only ever think of "Who Brings Shadow", so that completely went over my head!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
-
11-07-2022, 01:34 PMKazhar
I believe the "ideals" quote was just so they could make a clumsy reference to his battle theme ("Invincible"), just like the entire ten years saga was jeopardized by the probably late decision to make it fit Answers's lyrics.
This is after all, the same scene where Emet-Selch was blatantly used as a living advertisement for future content, their focus wasn't on writing a compelling closure for his character.