Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

As a healer i can say i sometimes do that so the tank has a minor healing at the start :P Dont know if i am doing bad or right, but i have never been told anything about it.

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Why though? What is the minor heal going to do for you or the tank at the start of a pull?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Why though? What is the minor heal going to do for you or the tank at the start of a pull?

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Depends on the tank.

I have encountered well geared tanks that used theyr mitigation skills and left me a window to help with the dps. The only thing i had to do as AST was to buff(or gain them) and apply regen so he would be healed meantime. On the other hand we have those tanks that pull everything on the dungueon regardless of theyr equipment and i have to spam every heal aviable so they wont die, because they wont use any mitigation skill either. On the first example i dont do it, but on the second i have to or they die by the time i finish a cast.

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Originally Posted by Ersilon

Please don't apply regen before a pull. In that initial phase of a pull, the tank is trying to establish aggro. Attacks by the dps or healing ticks from your regen build enmity on the mobs that your tank has to compete against to maintain aggro control, meaning your tank has to work harder to keep the mobs from eating you. It's safer to wait for the tank to stop pulling and do at least one enmity AoE on the mobs before tossing that heal.

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Noted. It's good to see some good advice for a time... As i stated above, it depends on the tank i am healing.

Soo I got Library from my leveling roulette as a sch last night. My boyfriend went as blm. Anyways until we hit the first boss, this is what I've been doing in no particular order: bio and miasma and bane those, I deploy either adlo or eye for an eye, ruin 2, broil, and heal. If Deployment Tactic is on cd, I'll use Succor.

When we hit the first boss, tank calls me out because of the lack of shields and then he left before I can reply. Left my boyfriend and the bard confused but both agreed that the "tank is an idiot". We eventually finish the run. Boyfriend had to reque as a tank and we didn't get another dps until we finish the first boss.

Back at it in party finder trying to kill Nidhogg, what's that been, two months without ever actually killing him?

Most of my P/F time has been spent waiting to reassemble the group because people would rage quit after one or two deaths.... As if the party is queued as a 'farm' group and not a kill group, as in the singular. As in made for anyone who has yet to actually kill him but at least, vaguely, know the tactics. >_>

And what's this I hear you cry, 'why don't you ask a farm party to help you'? Well because anyone I do whisper just flat out ignores me; and anyone who does let me join? We don't even manage to kill him, even once...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...16885a5798.jpg ... until the boss actually dies.

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Originally Posted by Lokier

Back at it in party finder trying to kill Nidhogg, what's that been, two months without ever actually killing him?

Most of my P/F time has been spent waiting to reassemble the group because people would rage quit after one or two deaths.... As if the party is queued as a 'farm' group and not a kill group, as in the singular. As in made for anyone who has yet to actually kill him but at least, vaguely, know the tactics. >_>

And what's this I hear you cry, 'why don't you ask a farm party to help you'? Well because anyone I do whisper just flat out ignores me; and anyone who does let me join? We don't even manage to kill him, even once...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...16885a5798.jpg ... until the boss actually dies.

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This reminds me of my attempts to get Sephirot NM down a couple weeks after it had launched. Waited in queue for half an hour (as a tank), and everyone kept leaving after one or two deaths. Eventually the party wound up disbanding with 15 minutes left on the duty timer. No one bothered to explain mechanics, people couldn't avoid the obvious ones; it was just a train wreck of a DF run.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

Depends on the tank.

I have encountered well geared tanks that used theyr mitigation skills and left me a window to help with the dps. The only thing i had to do as AST was to buff(or gain them) and apply regen so he would be healed meantime. On the other hand we have those tanks that pull everything on the dungueon regardless of theyr equipment and i have to spam every heal aviable so they wont die, because they wont use any mitigation skill either. On the first example i dont do it, but on the second i have to or they die by the time i finish a cast.

Noted. It's good to see some good advice for a time... As i stated above, it depends on the tank i am healing.

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Speaking as a tank: please don't ever apply regen pre-pull or mid-pull. Shields are fine, but regen is going to give you buckets of healing aggro before we can get our enmity combo off. This makes the beginning of most pulls chaotic, and if there are multiple adds, it means that all of the ones we aren't targeting are going to want to come say hello to your face in the floor.

Also, when they're mass pulling, ask them to use their cooldowns while they're kiting mobs together. Big heals are going to strip hate from them, because they probably haven't had much opportunity to build enmity yet. If they die? You can blame them for going too fast.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Why though? What is the minor heal going to do for you or the tank at the start of a pull?

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Hi, tank main here (and I also heal). This can affect your tank in one of two ways. If you precast regen before the pull, or it's still ticking, and you have a group of widely scattered mobs, when the tank does their ranged pull on one mob, the other two make a beeline for the healer.

This is not a big deal for a small pull or an experienced tank. They simply do their group aggro move and everyone starts working on those mobs. At a lower level, or with an inexperienced tank who may not yet have a tank stance, the healer may find one or two mobs chewing on their face because of regen aggro.

The practice sets a bad precedent because small pulls are only standard in lower level content. If you apply a pre-pull regen and the tank pulls one group then keeps going for the next one, your regen or any regen/cure you apply before they stop moving will interrupt the pull. If they're a good tank, they will stop, get aggro back, and continue the pull. But the eager dps may think that's the end and start beating on the mobs and compete for aggro, too.

If they are a bad tank they will keep going regardless, and you're going to have one or two mobs chewing your face while the tank continues on their merry way. Then you'll have to blow cooldowns you may need when a tank has a big group gathered, just to keep yourself up until (and IF) he takes aggro back on your regen magnet mobs.

Contrast with no pre-pull regen: tank does a ranged aggro move, all mobs aggro on him because no one else is doing anything, everyone follows the tank as they repeat with the next group, and the next, then they come to a stop and do a few group aggro moves, pop cooldowns, dps begin aoe rotactions, healer applies regen/shielding/whatever, everything is smooth and life is good.

Also: this is going to affect different tanks differently. PLD's group aggro move is circle of scorn, which has a cooldown, and flash, which is a pain to do on the fly. WAR has overpower and steel cyclone. Overpower is a frontal cone and has to be aimed at the mobs - also a pain to do on the fly. DRK, by contrast, can just merrily Unleash their way through groups of mobs until they run out of MP so this won't be as big a deal for them.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Speaking as a tank: please don't ever apply regen pre-pull or mid-pull. Shields are fine, but regen is going to give you buckets of healing aggro before we can get our enmity combo off. This makes the beginning of most pulls chaotic, and if there are multiple adds, it means that all of the ones we aren't targeting are going to want to come say hello to your face in the floor.

Also, when they're mass pulling, ask them to use their cooldowns while they're kiting mobs together. Big heals are going to strip hate from them, because they probably haven't had much opportunity to build enmity yet. If they die? You can blame them for going too fast.

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I get your point.

The problem with the mass pulling is that they ran away and i have to decide very fast what to do in this case. I dont have the time to write and tell them to slow a bit when that happens because... Well, if i get distracted while they are doing that it wont end well, so to say. I got runs in some dungueons where we got to the last boss and i had to ask for a stop for me to regain MP.

Even after using the card AND the ability to regain it.

That being said, not always happens but... It has given me the bad habit to be cautious in that way.

If the tank can't survive a full pull without a regen, they shouldn't full pull. Shields/stoneskin, cooldowns and the tank's gear level are supposed to take care of things until the tank establishes group aggro.

Ideally tanks shouldnt stop until they finished the pull. There is nothing worse than a stop and go tank.

Tank stops pulls finished bards drop flaming arrow ninjas doton. My scholar a shadow flare and off the tank goes to continue the pull.

Or tank stops dps pops raging strikes and buffs i tell fairy to covenant and off the tank runs to pull more mobs. Misses covenant and Next time he stops the dps buffs all droppedal off..

As a tank if the dps /healers pulls aggro during a pull they can keep it till I've finished at which point I'll pull it back with my aoes. I won't stop to get the mob back and then start pulling again for the reasons just stated.

Healers have the advantage here as they can avoid the mobs that aggroed to them just hitting sprint to catch up to the tank.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

snip...

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Wow, uh, big reply... I'm just going to start by saying thanks for trying to be helpful. But I've been playing WHM for a couple years now so I already know the ins and outs of dungeon pulls. I wasn't asking about the consequences of using a regen pre-pull, I was asking what possible benefits there are to it.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

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As an AST you have Essential Dignity in all dungeons so there is really no excuse for them dying because they won't survive a cast. And if they die within the the span of the 2.5 seconds that it takes you to cast a spell, how is a regen that heals less every 3 seconds possibly going to keep them alive?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

As an AST you have Essential Dignity in all dungeons so there is really no excuse for them dying because they won't survive a cast. And if they die within the the span of the 2.5 seconds that it takes you to cast a spell, how is a regen that heals less every 3 seconds possibly going to keep them alive?

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Let's just say that sometimes i panick when things seem to go wrong (even if they dont) and sometimes my fingers mess up a bit ">.>

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

>.>

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I've been there, I know it can suck. You get less panicky with more practice though.
Anyways, that's all the explanation I need. Lol

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I've been there, I know it can suck. You get less panicky with more practice though.
Anyways, that's all the explanation I need. Lol

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This! Eventually your hands just go on auto pilot.

That being said; I'm still a little panicky in new dungeons <_>!

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Originally Posted by The_Shang

What's with healers and the tendency to apply regens whenever they're down?

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It may just be habits carrying over from other MMO's - i've got AST to 60 and on an alt WHM to 50 and I still do that sometimes. It comes from playing druid in WOW and Warden in Rift. There the hots go up at before the first pull and you strive to never let them drop - their aggro is insignificant. I understand it is different here but old habits die hard :-)

As a WHM, I cast regen on tank after first group of mobs depending when stoneskin drops. What I also do is run right after tank and stop where they stop after mass pull. Because of regen I don't have to spend Tetra or stop to heal the tank. There's also no reason for me to stay further away until proper aggro has been established (takes one or two aoe GCDs that a tank should do anyway). The only part where I get aggro with this method of mine is from two mobs in Xelphatol with the second big pull when two mobs come from behind the rock. I'm already next to the tank at that point.

DF stories: Human errors with the "please, don't stand in front of mob if you're not a tank" in Ifrit HM, tiny healer in Brayflox NM who had trouble keeping tank alive due to healing in Cleric's while a lot of mobs were aggroed. Luckily it was sorted out quick and no wipe happened. A not so experienced AST in TamTara HM who I had to push a little to not be scared of using cards amongs the healing.

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Originally Posted by The_Shang

What's with healers and the tendency to apply regens whenever they're down?

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Putting an early regen is bad so this WHM was in the wrong. However, with experience, you can gauge when you should toss another or just let it fall off. Regen, on its own, is more potent than Cure 1 in a vacuum and it DOES help keep health up. Always good practice (like in boss fights) to keep it up as much as possible.

-Queue for trial as SCH
-Bismarck
-dps decide now is a perfect time to start a conversation
-one dps falls off
-dps continue to talk
-Get to snakes
-Wipe at 1% on second snake
-I leave duty.

It already kinda irks me, probably more than it should, when people decide to use party/alliance chat to hold conversations with their friends. But then to wipe at 1%? I don't understand how anyone could think anything other than "hmmmm, maybe if I wasn't so busy talking, we might have cleared it."

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, but like...c'mon, the rest of us are trying to get stuff done too.

Off topic. I've been reading this thread page by page on my days at work and the drama around pages 107-112 is interesting to say the least.

On topic. I did Stone Vigil the other day and 1 of the dps, a MNK kept pulling ahead of me and the WMG healer complained they were taking too much damage during a boss fights. But I held the hate the entire time on the boss and the healer kept stepping into AOE. They eventually left. A mentor came in and the run went super smooth after

For the first time someone complained about my tanking. I play WAR and I switch between tank stance and DPs stance.
Healer saw this then as asked me to keep tank stance on. I was confused because as a WAR my tank stance does not reduce damage taken, it is all about CD management.

I will use my tank stance to get lead in enmity and before tank busters because it is a healing buff (increase healing by 20%).
I do heal myself as well, I did not see my HP going low nor the damage I was taking was insane.

Maybe the healer doesn't know how WAR works or how any tank work but they generally have an idea that tank stance must be on all the time.
I didn't bother explaining why I was turning it off because we were speed running things with two MNKs who are rushing to next pull before their buffs fall.

That moment when you are running POTD with your significant other and he gets vote kicked for not going fast enough through the floors.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

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As long as you managed aggro properly and the healer had no difficulty managing your HP, I don't see what he had to complain about xD

Maybe it was a lazy healer who did not want to miss on the 20% healing bonus from the tank stance :p

Hadn't played MNK in nearly a year. Started my anima and bought some fresh new gear.

"How come I stopped playing this job?" Queue up for dungeon. Get to first enemy. Tank keeps spinning it around.

"ooooooooh, now I remember."

I main AST, but my secondary healer is WHM. They're equally geared, and I play WHM enough to not be a complete tool.

Yet, just now in SV (HM), I couldn't not feel like one. Though my brain kept telling me that when a PLD keeps pulling as many mobs as he can, while switching between ShO and SwO (mid-pull), stopping long enough for the NIN to drop Doton and then running off again, not using HG until they were done pulling (at 8% health), and let dragons eat me (because that's what happens when heretics turn into dragons while the healer is healing)...well, I can't help that. Nor can I help it when it's decided to repeat this experience, and I just can't keep up with the sprints around the corner, the ShO/SwO switcheroos, or lack of cooldowns (I imagine they're for chumps).

I can usually deal with tanks who apparently think that 60 healers have full access to the 60 toolkit in 50 roulettes. But this one...I couldn't. Couldn't even dps on boss fights, he was getting smoked.

I couldn't even use E4E, because I was so busy spamming Cure 2 (and 3, and DS on cooldown), and I kept looking that I wasn't in CS, because...he was getting that smoked.

:(

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

-Queue for trial as SCH
-Bismarck
-dps decide now is a perfect time to start a conversation
-one dps falls off
-dps continue to talk
-Get to snakes
-Wipe at 1% on second snake
-I leave duty.

It already kinda irks me, probably more than it should, when people decide to use party/alliance chat to hold conversations with their friends. But then to wipe at 1%? I don't understand how anyone could think anything other than "hmmmm, maybe if I wasn't so busy talking, we might have cleared it."

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, but like...c'mon, the rest of us are trying to get stuff done too.

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As I levelled pld, I got into a vault where people kept gossiping about how terrible the first tank was for leaving them and criticising their dps.

I used rampart thrice on that trash pull.

I was running A10n for my last bit of loot and as OT I get the tether mechanic on me. So I run away, trying to point it at as few people as possible, but it catches the nin standing by the boss and he dies. Later I get the tether again, so I run away in exactly the same direction, and again the nin ends up standing in the way and dies. Then he shouts at me in all caps to stop doing that. Shortly after that we down the boss, and he starts trying to explain that I did it wrong. I'm not sure what else I should have done, though. There were a couple of melee surrounding the boss - if I'd run in another direction, someone else would have been in the way of the tether. Unless they moved, of course. When I tried to tell him as much, he made a remark about how mentors were brainless. Others started agreeing with him about how wrong I was. He said he was trying to help me, and I told him I don't mind being corrected, it's namecalling I have a problem with (also, starting off the conversation with an angry all caps generally does not make the other party more receptive to your arguments). Once the loot rolls were completed (I got my loot, at least) and I left, I got a comm. So now I'm totally confused, lol. How are you supposed to handle the tether? It was apparently my fault that the nin died, even though he could have moved out of the way of the clearly visible line?

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Originally Posted by Nix

This! Eventually your hands just go on auto pilot.

That being said; I'm still a little panicky in new dungeons <_>!

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Sometimes, very rarely, like once every third full moon, my hands auto-pilot and I do terrible things. It doesn't even last long, it's just like a 3 second spasm until I get my shit together. And then I sit there, with 4 different menus open while fighting brute justice on savage mode as a BLM with 0 MP in Astral fire with transpose on CD and raging strikes up.

I main nin and my hands go on auto-pilot way too much.

I kept trying to do Suiton and getting confused when nothing would happen. For a while I thought there was something wrong with Suiton, or bosses were invisibly immune to the ability when first pulled. Eventually I caught myself doing the combo for Huton and realised it wasn't a bug, it was me passively going from left to right on my controller, instead of right to left. I don't really think about what I'm doing when I fight, I've memorised all of my action lay-out, combos, etc. I don't even look at my keyboard when I type any more, lol.

Still, sometimes I just automatically go to refresh Huton when I don't want to, lmao.

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Originally Posted by Cherub

Sometimes, very rarely, like once every third full moon, my hands auto-pilot and I do terrible things. It doesn't even last long, it's just like a 3 second spasm until I get my shit together. And then I sit there, with 4 different menus open while fighting brute justice on savage mode as a BLM with 0 MP in Astral fire with transpose on CD and raging strikes up.

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It happens to me whenever i have to quickly cast benediction (or any of the "oh sh*t" heals), 50% of the time i accidentally cast it on myself or someone with full health.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

How are you supposed to handle the tether? It was apparently my fault that the nin died, even though he could have moved out of the way of the clearly visible line?

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I guess you're supposed to aim it at as many party members as possible for a high score? Run over all three buttons for bonus points too, don't forget that.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

How are you supposed to handle the tether? It was apparently my fault that the nin died, even though he could have moved out of the way of the clearly visible line?

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If its normal, you wanna aim for an empty line of just you and him. Really depends where he is being tanked. In savage for us he is usually between the 2 button on the edge so we are free to run to the wall where no one should be. For normal, just run in a line with the least people to one of the electric sides if possible, rarely OT that one so not 100% but basically just commit to it so the dps/healers can move out of the way.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

If its normal, you wanna aim for an empty line of just you and him. Really depends where he is being tanked. In savage for us he is usually between the 2 button on the edge so we are free to run to the wall where no one should be. For normal, just run in a line with the least people to one of the electric sides if possible, rarely OT that one so not 100% but basically just commit to it so the dps/healers can move out of the way.

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That's what I was trying to do. He was tanked in the middle right at the back, not a position that gives you a lot of room on either side, so I ended up running at a 45 degree angle from the boss so that I wouldn't be too close and take a ton of damage. I did it exactly the same both times, and there was plenty of time for others to run away if necessary. I ran another run afterwards, where the boss was tanked as you describe, and when the tether came it was run directly to the other side and all the melee parted like the Red Sea. Which is what I normally see happen, hence my confusion that the ninja got killed twice and it was apparently my fault.

A11 normal, and seeing no fewer than 4 new people is kind of intimidating. Still, I'm not so far gone that I automatically leave just because someone is new, and with luck, I never will be that jaded.

I suggested taking the time to explain mechanics, started explaining mechanics, and was faced with the problem that there are just so many little tips and tricks about the fight as a whole that it's almost impossible to explain it in its entirety, in any sort of reasonable timeframe. The tank decided to pull while I was still explaining mechanics, but I'm amazed I even got any time at all to explain anything.

Note to devs: Having "Optical Sight" be the name for approximately 2-3 different kinds of attacks for the boss makes it really difficult and annoying to describe the fight.

I spent most of the first attempt juggling my rotation, dodging, and typing out mechanics explanations as they were happening, while fighting a bad case of the shivers, because I was slowly freezing to death at the time. We wiped, and the most tragic thing about that was that we were so close to LB3 and the healers could've picked us all up, but nope.

Still, we cleared it on the 2nd try. 4 new people, on A11. True, 5 people including me were all dead when we cleared it, but we cleared it. And that's why I don't eat a penalty just because someone is new.

I was just in a gubal run where everything went flawlessly and we finished in 15 minutes. Last boss didn't even have a chance to cast meteor

Had a ninja in expert, dps was quite slow...and I assume it was them mainly because no Kiss of the wasp or whatever that and the other buff is, No Huton, nothing but oh god, let me tell ya, they sure had some priority's like when they stopped to whine about the dps, in front of the boss...and took 3 cleaves to the face and died.

Here's one that happened just a moment ago:
Paladin can't keep hate on trash or the boss. Both DPS are constantly pulling aggro as well as the healer. After the first boss is when we finally say something after nearly wiping, mainly due to all four of us taking damage nearly the entire time.
http://i.imgur.com/yPn3pV6.png
(Click the image to make it bigger)
This is one of the reasons why you can't mentor in FFXIV - not the way it should be, anyway. It's not like you can report the guy, even though he's purposely potentially screwing you over if other tanks decide to leave immediately (which did happen until we finally got one that stayed). All this person cared about is, I guess, the feeling of being bullied because other players were too nice to stop and telling them they aren't performing their job previously, potentially running into the same situation we did. An overly sensitive player being told they aren't doing what they need to be doing, being called out on it and then dealing with a tantrum.

And yes, the tank said that and left immediately; so fast that they were gone before the "just helping" got sent.

To the random PUG that just had to deal with my connection issues and crap tanking in Toto-Rak, I am so so so sorry. My flashes weren't going off, my combos wouldn't proc, and I disconnected while trying to grab a photocell from the first room. Hopefully a much more stable tank was able to save you. ;__;

My expert today was three elezen and a lalafel. Guess which one was tanking. Thought that was funny. Even in 24 raids, it's rare to run into another Elezen and here we are making up 75% of the party.

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Originally Posted by Heliantheae

My expert today was three elezen and a lalafel. Guess which one was tanking. Thought that was funny. Even in 24 raids, it's rare to run into another Elezen and here we are making up 75% of the party.

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I know, right?! Funny enough, I ran into three other Elezen in my expert roulette today :o

#elezenmasterrace
#moreelezenforeorzea

This exchange that recently happened during D.Darkhold (I'm playing an alt).

http://i.imgur.com/TCGrFPq.png
Colour coded for convenience.

The NIN (who I do not know) only pulled ahead once and that's because they didn't expect the tank to STOP before the Aether Crystals after we killed the drakes. The first time the NIN 'pulled' something was in the same place, but with the drakes still alive. Tank didn't move out of the Aether Crystal area, so the skeletons noticed the NIN and then all hell broke loose (but at the time, the tank just commented on how obnoxious that area was).

Tanks, if you have a DPS running ahead and pulling mobs, ask them to stop that. If they persist, then let them keep the mob... but do not. EVER. Punish the party overall because one player got under your skin. That is how you make a kick towards you justifiable. I asked my FC if there was a tank available, just in case.

http://i.imgur.com/Hpaphfs.png

I hate to be that player, but why does it always feel like it's tanks?