Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Why should black mage get raise. It doesn't come from class that had raise in first place. Summoner has it because its also a scholar and class they both come from had it. Red mage is hybrid class that combines healer and caster class together. Black mage doesn't come from any type of healer class. If they take raise away. Then they need to take away endless mp a black mage gets.

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I see where you're coming from and agree that BLM should not get a rez. However, I'd argue that SMN has a rez only because it hasn't yet been able to escape its loveless marriage to SCH, and RDM isn't a hybrid class in this game; there is no room for a DPS-based healing hybrid in the current game design. It works for healers and tanks to maximize DPS because they can do so helpfully while still performing their primary functions; a DPS Job's primary function takes up virtually all of their actions if they are doing it correctly.

I wouldn't base my argument against BLM rez on reasons why the other casters have it, because SMN never really needed it, and RDM is shoe-horned into a rez dispenser role because of theirs and how it works so easily with Dualcast (though it admittedly comes with a DPS cost).

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

RDM isn't a hybrid class in this game

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Yes it is, because lore.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Yes it is, because lore.

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Hybrid as in it uses both black and white magic? Yes.

Hybrid as in it's a DPS and a healer? No. It's a dps with some healer mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hybrid as in it uses both black and white magic? Yes.

Hybrid as in it's a DPS and a healer? No. It's a dps with some healer mechanics.

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If anything, its a hybrid between a caster and a ranged DPS.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

If your relying on a DPS to raise your party members...your doing it wrong.
The issue is not where you think it is. DPS'ers shouldn't be healing in the first place....if they happen to have the skill...its for emergencies/mistakes/screwup's.
IMHO.
Is it wrong that a redmage can raise/cure? No...its handy when things go wrong. Note what i just said...... ;)

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Actually, in early progression, raising is a very valuable tool to let you see/attempt later phases even after mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Yes it is, because lore.

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It's not, because context.

Lore is a different discussion from gameplay. I explained in the same post in what way it cannot properly be considered a hybrid class in FFXIV.

Real hybrid class don't mesh well with role based MMOs anyway, one could say that RDM is as hybrid as the system allows it but it still remains a damage dealer job at it's core

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hybrid as in it uses both black and white magic? Yes.

Hybrid as in it's a DPS and a healer? No. It's a dps with some healer mechanics.

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Which is what makes it a hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's not, because context.

Lore is a different discussion from gameplay. I explained in the same post in what way it cannot properly be considered a hybrid class in FFXIV.

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What people like you have to understand is lore is equally as important as gameplay to any RPG. Maybe not to you, but you're not a developer. But to humor you, the red mage is a DPS Disciple of Magic with four weaponskills (which you otherwise only see on Disciples of War) and an Intelligence-based healing spell (Physick is Mind-based so summoner can't really be expected to use it ever and simultaneously be considered to be "using its full kit"). Therefore, hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Which is what makes it a hybrid.

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Okay, goalposts are now at "if a class has mechanics of a different role it's a hybrid."

All healers are now hybrids. All tanks are now hybrids. Most dps are now hybrids. Hybrid means next to nothing now.

EDIT: Worth noting if you're using its weaponskills, you're being bad at the job. When enchanted, the attacks are unaspected magic, not weaponskills.

EDIT2: Ignore edit 1; I'm not redacting it, as people do have the right to see my stupidity in full. JohnnyDevo has the right of it, and I never looked at the part of the skillcard where it says "Weaponskill".

The theme/lore/history of Red Mage is a hybrid white and black mage, the gameplay and implementation is DPS that has been cursed with Raise dispensing and an okayish recovery tool in Vercure.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

EDIT: Worth noting if you're using its weaponskills, you're being bad at the job. When enchanted, the attacks are unaspected magic, not weaponskills.

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Not quite. While it is true that most things do physical damage as weaponskills or unaspected magic damage as spells, red mage's enchanted weaponskills are an exception. While they deal unaspected magic damage and benefit from all things that help magic damage, they are still weaponskills and follow all rules that apply.

This, however, is mostly irrelevant, excepting one case. A red mage using his enchanted melee combo while buffed with brotherhood will have a chance at giving the monk additional chakras. Not much benefit for the monk since it's only 3 weaponskills in the duration, but it's there.

Related, brotherhood buffs physical damage, which benefits the red mage's ogcd abilities specifically. Making this relationship one of the lowest-benefit two-way synergies in the game.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

Not quite. While it is true that most things do physical damage as weaponskills or unaspected magic damage as spells, red mage's enchanted weaponskills are an exception.

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You are very right. I apologize, the difference between the two confuses me at times; I extend that apology to Ceallach, for making such a claim without making sure.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

What people like you have to understand...

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This is getting absurd. I was extremely clear when I explained my comment. You have an enormous chip on your shoulder when it comes to lore discussion and are reading disparagement where it doesn't exist and hasn't even been hinted at.

Nowhere have I said or implied that lore is unimportant. I have, however, stated that lore discussion isn't necessarily (and is usually not at all) the same thing as gameplay discussion.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Okay, goalposts are now at "if a class has mechanics of a different role it's a hybrid."

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That's not what I was getting at. It makes sense for white mages to have attack spells because it's not historically inaccurate. They had Banish and Dia for ages, for example. Besides, the red mage has always been a jack of all trades, so having elements of basically every role other than tank and physical ranged DPS makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You are very right. I apologize, the difference between the two confuses me at times; I extend that apology to Ceallach, for making such a claim without making sure.

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No worries.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Nowhere have I said or implied that lore is unimportant. I have, however, stated that lore discussion isn't necessarily (and is usually not at all) the same thing as gameplay discussion.

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Actually, that "it's not unimportant" bit was not clear to me. The way I see it, ignoring or disrespecting the lore (the latter of which mainly Llugen is guilty of) is tantamount to not understanding what an RPG is, or even disrespecting the devs themselves.

And if you think I'm hard on you, you should see what I do to myself when I make mistakes...

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Actually, that "it's not unimportant" bit was not clear to me. The way I see it, ignoring or disrespecting the lore (the latter of which mainly Llugen is guilty of) is tantamount to not understanding what an RPG is, or even disrespecting the devs themselves.

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A game with great lore and terribly balanced gameplay is the same thing as a game with terrible lore and terribly balanced gameplay.

XIV gameplay is miles more balanced than people try to make it look.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

XIV gameplay is miles more balanced than people try to make it look.

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Just look at FINAL FANTASY XI. If you were a dragoon, puppetmaster, rune fencer, or even a red mage (later on), you were basically just not wanted by anyone ever. In FINAL FANTASY XIV, black mage does decent DPS. The balance problem lies in the fact black mage does only DPS while summoner does more than DPS and more DPS than black mage. Whether black mage should get a Raise variant is a stupid question. Black mage needs more DPS and really not much else.

But hey, people like Kabooa can not care about the game's lore all they like. As long as it's understood lore shapes what jobs and classes can do, that's enough to satisfy me.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Just look at FINAL FANTASY XI. If you were a dragoon, puppetmaster, rune fencer, or even a red mage (later on), you were basically just not wanted by anyone ever. In FINAL FANTASY XIV, black mage does decent DPS. The balance problem lies in the fact black mage does only DPS while summoner does more than DPS and more DPS than black mage. Whether black mage should get a Raise variant is a stupid question. Black mage needs more DPS and really not much else.

But hey, people like Kabooa can not care about the game's lore all they like. As long as it's understood lore shapes what jobs and classes can do, that's enough to satisfy me.

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That absolutely is not the issue though (SMN). If you think BLM's problem is just SMN - you are flat out incorrect. Black Mage not only needs DPS, but a whole lot of QoL/class design changes as well as changes to the general meta of DPS classes - SMN infact isn't actually the problem. Its DRG/BRD/MCH/NIN.

Black Mages are flat out not wanted by anyone ever.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

That absolutely is not the issue though (SMN). If you think BLM's problem is just SMN - you are flat out incorrect. Black Mage not only needs DPS, but a whole lot of QoL/class design changes as well as changes to the general meta of DPS classes - SMN infact isn't actually the problem. Its DRG/BRD/MCH/NIN.

Black Mages are flat out not wanted by anyone ever.

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I wouldn't mind things like Enochian becoming completely a trait and Disciples of Magic being more wanted in general. My points are simply that black mage should not get a Raise variant and whatever changes are made need to match with the game's lore. That's it. That's all I care about as far as this thread is concerned.

Now, if this thread were about overall balance in the meta, then sure, we could talk about the party composition problems, and I do agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

I wouldn't mind things like Enochian becoming completely a trait and Disciples of Magic being more wanted in general. My points are simply that black mage should not get a Raise variant and whatever changes are made need to match with the game's lore. That's it. That's all I care about as far as this thread is concerned.

Now, if this thread were about overall balance in the meta, then sure, we could talk about the party composition problems, and I do agree with you there.

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I absolutely agree that Black Mage shouldn't get a Raise variant. However it needs a lot more than just a dps numbers buff that will never be enough.

I stopped following this thread (finally) after I felt satisfied that I'd finally been heard/understood, but another thought just struck me yesterday: it might not feel like "black magic" to use resurrect, but it is black magic to want to cheat death, most certainly. So I might be inclined to have some kind of "Immortalize" skill that functions similar to Living Dead.

Shatotto kinda defies death and so does Ququruka in a way so it's not impossible also it's the reason Why I said a phylactery-like skill could work

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Shatotto kinda defies death and so does Ququruka in a way so it's not impossible also it's the reason Why I said a phylactery-like skill could work

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I don't disagree, but it's pretty clear that there's a subset of players who consider FF Black Magic to be limited to Fire, Ice, Thunder, and virtually nothing else. Even if one wanted to advocate a raise or a "second chance" sort of skill, these players won't be having it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I don't disagree, but it's pretty clear that there's a subset of players who consider FF Black Magic to be limited to Fire, Ice, Thunder, and virtually nothing else. Even if one wanted to advocate a raise or a "second chance" sort of skill, these players won't be having it.

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I'd love a proper bolt spell. *glares at Raiton*

BLM is supposed to be the SAM of casters. It is not bad to have as long as it is bringing up high numbers.

At the moment SMN is topping BLM in DPs (This should be fixed).
BLM > SMN > RDM (this is how it should be).

Lets hope 4.2 fixes that.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I don't disagree, but it's pretty clear that there's a subset of players who consider FF Black Magic to be limited to Fire, Ice, Thunder, and virtually nothing else. Even if one wanted to advocate a raise or a "second chance" sort of skill, these players won't be having it.

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TBH as I said in the past raise is problematic and can break fights easily if overlooked and because of it I'd rather have it moderated on the existing sources rather than spread, also there's the fact of job identity that goes against that.
That said It's true that there are some death-defiying elements in the BLM job quests as such I think discussing about those it's fair at the very least regardless of what we personally think and quite frankly if SE devs decide to give BLM a raise I'd rather have it so that either makes sense or that they make raise as role action

To those still hanging unto the idea of blm getting a raise


http://jackklumpenhower.com/wp-conte...Go-670x372.jpg

I just thought about coming here to have some laugh, because at the quest level 10 of BLM, one of our masters, Cocobani, laughs saying "Aha! You arrive before me upright and breathing. Wonderful! It is so much simpler to pose questions to a student without having to resort to necromantic divination" --> So they actually know necromancy :p And I don't believe it's only a joke from them.
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/T...eat_of_Paucity
(Disclaimer, I'm against giving a kind of Raise in order to balance them, but it just seems the fact they can't use necromancy is actually not true, and not only done by evil characters).

Not exactly relevant but Thaumaturge used to be able to cast resurrect before the meteor smashed their guild. Then again conjurers were able to cast high level black magic... let’s just see what 4.2 is going to end up with.

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Originally Posted by StragoMagus

Not exactly relevant but Thaumaturge used to be able to cast resurrect before the meteor smashed their guild. Then again conjurers were able to cast high level black magic... let’s just see what 4.2 is going to end up with.

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They didn't. They could before 1.2, but that was just Thaumaturge... being run by a void mage.