If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So you play at a time when it was.....simpler? I'm confused as to why you go back to old expansions where you didn't have as much skills. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the classics just as much as anyone else, but the simple fact that the developers of FFXIV understand that the game feels a tad....complicated when it comes to controller players places the blame on those people. I shouldn't have to start using a M/K because the game demands it, which it doesn't, the meta community does i.e. ultimate, savage. The fact that I can play this game from my couch and still clear savage content is a testament to design of this game. Again don't get me wrong there are some things that I detest to savage, enrage comes to mind and I think enrage timers are incredibly lackluster to mechanics, but hey that's me.

Reducing button bloat IS NOT a red flag of simplifying a game. It's removing frustration of some jobs that just really have WAY to many buttons. I actually have to remove ALL my AOE buttons when I raid just so I can have everything on my main X-hotbar with out using to much switching or fumbling around.

Those that play on M/K as an Astro should BOW to those Astro's that play on controller. ESPECISALLY in P4S during Pinax....

The current method of adding buttons to jobs should be forgotten and replaced with TRAITS upgrading skills. It's simpler and you can still create new and interesting dynamics. Dragoon comes to mind with all the changes made for 60-80 you get maybe 1 actual ability/skill. Everything else is traited...which still changes how the job plays. Atonement on Paladin also comes to mind....trait that crap and change Royal Authority to atonement on completion. Currently Atonement is on the GCD anyway so it only makes sense.

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I think s/he is referring copy / paste jobs.

If you level 1 healer you don't have to try others because all of them same with different animation (excluding AST for unique card system.. but overall same thing 1 dot 1 dps skill with excessive healing skills, card system bonus).

DPS & tank jobs currently feels different but eventually SE will "fix" it :)

The fact that controller support is being blamed shows a very large degree of ignorance.

Controller issues are outside of combat. Inside combat they perform just as well as K+M, its all preference. Some find controller much easier to manage 30 buttons, some find K+M easier. They both work fine. The fact that MMORPG mice are popular speaks to the fact that many people find standard K+M limiting as well.

There 48 easily available slots to work with without swapping to a new hot bar.

The bigger problem to me isnt the number of buttons, its that complex rotations are (imo) tedious. Part of the reason why WoW shines in combat is that it keeps you on your toes more with what to press more. WoWs peak was also perhaps its peak simplicity in combat, but it was engaging. The 'simplification' thing that, imo, drove people away was removal of talent trees.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

It's not really the button bloat that people are mad about them addressing. It is the buttons that are being removed. Again I am not understanding where players are not understanding that part. No one wants more buttons, but no one wants iconic skills removed either.

Man I can't wait for PS support to end again.

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If the developers had the foresight to know where the game would be mechanically from ARR to now....I don't think they would have added more buttons. They would have traited EVERYTHING, then nobody would be crying at the moon with the removal of SAM buttons if they never added them in the first place. Hind sight is always 20/20.

I didn't care when they removed positionals from MNK for the sake of smoother gameplay. Anybody remember the REQUIRED positionals of Dragoon?

Four out of the 8 players in my static play on PS5 and I don't hear them whining about...."it's to hard...ugh" or "man I wish this game was more homogenized so it was easier to play".

It's actually the opposite when you think about it. It's harder to play on controller then it is on keyboard. With the vast amount of control you have on M/K they game is actually easier as I have almost literally everything at the ready on my main hotbars. Just a simple click of any skill.

With controller you really have to get clever with your skills and abilities and how you group them. If you place to many GCD abilities on your left side (D-Pad) it really hinders your movement with the left stick. Muscle memory plays a big part, and the game really becomes like a fighting game in style of how you press your buttons. i.e. Combo 1 = R2, Triangle, Circle, X or Gap Closer = R2+L2, Up. Again your muscle memory starts to take over when you place skills/abilities.

I honestly don't understand how people would rather play on M/K. Sometimes all I hear in the discord channel is keyboard clicks of them just constantly pushing a button 30 times every 2 seconds for an entire 10 min fight. I get why they do it...but I don't understand the "gotta hit this button 90 times....ok now that button....ok now that button." it's kind of silly when you think about it. I suppose as a controller player I have trained myself to hit the button a couple times just before the GCD comes off. I'll ready have my trigger combo ready for the next GCD or fight mechanic. When I play on keyboard it just feels less responsive to me for some reason...like having to shift or Ctrl my way through combos feels clunky to me.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

The fact that controller support is being blamed shows a very large degree of ignorance.

Controller issues are outside of combat. Inside combat they perform just as well as K+M, its all preference. Some find controller much easier to manage 30 buttons, some find K+M easier. They both work fine. The fact that MMORPG mice are popular speaks to the fact that many people find standard K+M limiting as well.

There 48 easily available slots to work with without swapping to a new hot bar.

The bigger problem to me isnt the number of buttons, its that complex rotations are (imo) tedious. Part of the reason why WoW shines in combat is that it keeps you on your toes more with what to press more. WoWs peak was also perhaps its peak simplicity in combat, but it was engaging. The 'simplification' thing that, imo, drove people away was removal of talent trees.

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Great answer. I loved Cataclysm personally. It was perfect looking back on the amount of buttons and Heroics. It was pretty much the only time I felt WoW was "perfect".

Eh, required positionals weren't that bad and to be fair the game did have a solid balance of complexity and approachablity in SB. However, they've swung too far one way in ShB and now EW.

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

I understand accessibility, but there is also supposed to be a progression in difficulty or complexity as things go on, no? To build upon previous concepts learned? I'm not a game designer, but I think that's a core staple. Here, though, we seem to keep things at a basic level.

I forget who suggested this, but I'll parrot it; I wish there was a mode where things are consolidated and easier for those who want to have that sort of experience; and then have the same content available for people who prefer a little more going on. Sort of like: Solo - Duty Finder, or maybe even some radical change akin to choosing a style in fighting games (Simple Input Method vs Advanced, etc.). Perhaps the Trust System can be used to make this sort of thing happen and we slowly bring back some difficulty.

I don't know where I'm going with this!

Feel free to pick apart my takes!

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

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The problem is, "class identity" and high difficulty in small group content do not fit really good. Because if the classes are too different then it is very likely that one class handles some situations way better than the other. Imagine, you have a fight with a great number of adds. Then you have a class with good AoE and a class without AoE. Which class would you choose for this content?

And then it comes, that the players create a meta for this specific content. If you do not fit that meta then they kick you out of their group. And yes, it happened already in other games like WoW. :) You are an elemental shaman and you want to do heroic Shattered Halls or heroic Magister's Terasse? Become a healer or GTFO. Because classes with crowd control made those instances way easier and an elemental shaman did not have very good CC. The perfect meta was 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 mages. :)



Cheers

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

What I find to be really interesting about this whole homogenization aspect of the game is that they CLEARLY are able to give classes identity. Check out the PvP changes on the classes!

I understand accessibility, but there is also supposed to be a progression in difficulty or complexity as things go on, no? To build upon previous concepts learned? I'm not a game designer, but I think that's a core staple. Here, though, we seem to keep things at a basic level.

I forget who suggested this, but I'll parrot it; I wish there was a mode where things are consolidated and easier for those who want to have that sort of experience; and then have the same content available for people who prefer a little more going on. Sort of like: Solo - Duty Finder, or maybe even some radical change akin to choosing a style in fighting games (Simple Input Method vs Advanced, etc.). Perhaps the Trust System can be used to make this sort of thing happen and we slowly bring back some difficulty.

I don't know where I'm going with this!

Feel free to pick apart my takes!

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There was some discussion on that here.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Blizzard stopped reporting subscriptions during WotLK, and the player base began to decline as the expansion grew older. Everything came to a head, and exploded in Blizzards face with the release of Cataclysm.

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Blizz stopped reporting subs during WoD when the game lost 50% of its playerbase due to bad game management decisions.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Yoshi P said in a video that FFXIV wouldn't exist were it not for WoW. The game was a major inspirational source for this game. My question really is: Is the dev team willing to learn from the mistakes Blizzard made?

Blizzard literally went on a raging simplification spree. Notably pruning and removing tons of abilities from each class and specializations in the name of "accessibility". Shortly after the game went downhill big time. Skill expression is today completely gone in WoW. Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

I truly do not understand why the developers want to do the same thing to FFXIV. Heck, Blizzard even recently stated that pruning was a mistake. They're now trying to "undo" the damage, but that's likely going to take multiple expansions of work. Why on earth would you want to repeat this same mistake in FFXIV?

Having easy jobs is perfectly fine, but there needs to be jobs that offer also medium difficulty and high difficulty. Pruning and dumbing down existing jobs is not in any way acceptable, and is an insult to players who main those jobs. If you want to make something simple, then you need to create new jobs that are simple from the beginning - period. People are invested in their jobs and you're actively disrespecting their affection by making changes none of them asked for.

By all means, continue to remove abilities and make the game play itself. You will not gain more subs; but you will lose half your player base from your arrogance.

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I love that the Hardcore Minority think they are half the user base lol if that was the case FFXIV 1.0 would of made it since that game was made for you people.

WoW died when they started making it hard in CATA and then insulted the casuals with the joke race expansion. Now the staff there makes content as hard as possible and no one plays anymore except you people.