P1N Warrior solo kill

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Can someone please explain to me why a tank should be able to constantly self-heal itself, either through direct heal abilities, hots, or heal via damage? Do we not have the healer role for a reason?

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Because standing front of boss while your hand completely tied without self sustain or some form of contribution to group boring.. Everything happening outside of your control.. all you have to do press mitigation skill when boss stats casting certain skill, you are expected to act like dummy.. It is not fun..

If healers feeling not engaged to combat it is healer or / and content design problem. IMO removing fun from tanks not going to contribute anything.

I'm not sure what's up with the seeming huge influx of bad healers in roulettes lately (it's probably just me having terrible luck), but it's making me appreciate all the more the ability of three of the tanks to self-sustain. In the last few days I've been consistently grouped with people that would in no way have been able to complete given content were it not for the ability of my preferred tanking jobs to simply not die. This isn't something I'd like to have taken away just because "muh healers." They've got plenty of red DPS to heal. Let the blue DPS have their fun.

I don't want tanks to be nerfed, I want healers to actually be fun. If tanks get to a level where even a mediocre tank doesn't need a healer then it's a problem, but I still see an incredible amount of tanks that have 0 idea how to use their mitigations even in level 90 content. Restore previous healer DPS options, flesh out our downtime kits, do something so we're not "rewarded" with mindless 1 spam boredom when we get a good tank. If being able to be "unkillable" is the reward for being a good tank who is able to properly leverage your kit, healers appropriately need to have a fun reward as well when their tank or party isn't full of glue sniffers.

The problem is really that we have a huge bloated kit of meaningless heals that we don't need to use that they're never going to require smart usage of in most of the content in the game. Remove some of them, add charges to some heals and then give us more to do during downtime or when we aren't needed. Nerfing tanks accomplishes nothing other than forcing them to have as little fun as we're having, because we all know that realistically SE is not going to retune almost all of the content in the game to actually require us to use these bloated healing kits that we have. Between the options of "everyone gets to have fun" and "nobody gets to have fun" I will always choose the former, where as SE has done the latter with healers.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Because self-healing/drain tanking has been an archetype since.... MUDs, even? Even discounting those it's still a thing in Lineage, WoW, Ragnarok Online, FFXI... It exists as a concept in games outside of MMOs too.

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The problem is that in those other MMOs the healing is that the tanks could not do enough healing to keep themselves alive fighting a current tier raid boss.
In other MMOs if the tank doesn't have a healer constantly healing them then they quickly eat dirt.

Perhaps the healers should get rid of their healing kits for more complicated DPS rotations.
Perhaps "Healer" should be removed from FF14 and renamed to "Support DPS"

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

I get what you are saying, but isn't that kind of the point of a tank though?

The only thing that I would possibly entertain is a flat reduction to all tank dps. I don't see anything wrong with the defensive/healing abilities, this was one of the easy fights they did this on. Lets not pretend that there are droves of tanks running EW and all its content completely solo.

Start cutting tank dps AND their abilities and watch the que times become 30+ minutes in regular duties. Because who would want to play them? I wouldn't play them if they were extremely weak dps just wearing slightly stronger armour who's sole purpose is to hold aggro and sit there being a punching bag while everybody else has fun.

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Perhaps another angle on this is addressing the naked double standard between the tank and healer roles.

Tank:
> Oh they'd better have really high defense because that's what tanks are
> Oh they'd better have mitigation and threat generation because that's what tanks do
> Better give them really good sustain because we don't want to rely on healers that may suck
> And let's also give them really good damage because it feels silly to not have decent output when you're chopping at something with a sword or axe

Healer:
> Better give them healing spells because that's what healers are
> Defense? POPPYCOCK! That's what tanks are for! Squishy caster armor for you! You'll get one shot like the rest of the non-tanks and like it.
> Mitigation? Okay you get a little but don't you dare do as much as tanks, that's breaking the trinity
> Decent damage? PREPOSTEROUS! You're the giggling one in the white dress, you can't attack things!

Basically, tanks openly defy the trinity? Sounds fun, let's go! Healers defy the trinity? HEALERS should HEAL ONLY, back in the cage Sylphie.

Now, it's not like tank damage rotations are all that gripping or give the element of choice, but they're at least a half step above Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil ZZZZZZZZZZ. But remember, healers "can't handle" more than that, because healers invalidating tanks is grounds for immediate emergency patching, while tanks flaunting the trinity is just a Tuesday.

Sounds like tanks are well designed and actually fun to play and healers need to be reworked, then.

It's the problem of trying to balance around every situation, and because of that the "best" players tend to suffer the most.

It's a weird feeling because it's only in struggle bus Duty Finder scenarios that I feel most like a tank. I'm mitigating on time, throwing people Aurora and HoC that are low health who maybe missed a heal, rotating mitigations to take as little damage as possible while my party recovers, using my invuln as an actual invuln smartly and not just to bypass a tank swap, and really use my kit to the fullest. Then when I raid with my static, I just feel like a DPS who Provoke's to invuln and cheese a mechanic while my healers are falling asleep at the wheel. So if you strip from the tanks to make the good healers more active, you will have a more useless tanks in Duty Finder scenarios, where adversely if they are strong enough to carry a struggling party, the good healers get bored.

You can give healers more DPS options, but you will have people feel overwhelmed and unwilling to try(Earthly Star timings are scary, don't @ me), or you have people too focused on DPS that they ignore the healing part, not to mention button bloat. I think they did really well on Sage coming from someone who normally doesn't heal, so I feel they are still working on what works best for everyone.

Not to mention this was the first fight of the first raid tier, and they are always pretty braindead mechanic wise. If they added some tower or add failsafe that could not be done solo no one would even be here talking about it. However, I do think some of the EX and Savage fights damage output is low or at least inconsistent. If they would at least add more consistent damage rather than damage in spikes that you can kitchen sink every time that might help. Though it's also hard to say how difficult does SE want these fights to be? Is Normal Easy, Savage Medium, Ultimates Hard? Are they intentionally designing these fights like this knowing they are releasing Ultimates for the true try-hards? Maybe. We'll have to see the changes in 6.1 and see how the Ultimate turns out.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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Well, to be fair, we as a community kinda fell out of the core of the "Trinity" back in Alexander, whereas before that tank and healer dps was not as largely of an idea, and have just never looked back. Some of the trinity is still there, not saying it's perfect, but it's there.

Tanks naturally have higher HP's and Defense from being a tank and being the main focus of the enemy, so it wouldn't make sense for a healer to be as "tanky" like a tank, or any other role for that matter. "Really good sustain" outside of WAR is highly fight dependent, I can tell you not every fight is doable without a healer. It depends on what your threshold of "good damage" is, because the best tank is still 1k behind the worst DPS. If you mean that they just do more damage than healers, I see no reason why healer damage could not be brought up to tank damage, but that's for SE to decide(Though the "Clemency is better than a lost Glare for DPS" had it's own issues lol). If you exclude the solely self mitigation tanks have, tanks and healers are pretty neck and neck when it comes to mitigation. In fact, Sage can output more party wide mitigation than any of the tank can with Kerachole and Holos. Just like no tank competes with a Spreadlo or how busted Macrocosmos can be like in P3S.

I'm not saying things are perfect, I just don't think they are leaps and bounds apart, and only need a few minor adjustments here and there for things to fit better. I'd rather them make encounters that challenge a healers kit before I would have them swinging the nerf bat to all the non-healer sustain just so healers can GCD heal more.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

You can give healers more DPS options, but you will have people feel overwhelmed and unwilling to try(Earthly Star timings are scary, don't @ me), or you have people too focused on DPS that they ignore the healing part, not to mention button bloat. I think they did really well on Sage coming from someone who normally doesn't heal, so I feel they are still working on what works best for everyone.

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The argument of "more DPS options would overwhelm healers or they'd focus only on that and then I'd die! So they can't have them at all!" is such a tired argument in regards to the overarching issue with healers at all right now.

If you get DPS players who are bad and can't bring the DPS in content or they're focused on their rotation so much they continually fail mechanics, the game becomes incredibly frustrating with how long things take or continually hitting enrage over and over in a fight if you're doing harder content. But nobody says that the amount of DPS options that DPS players have should be reduced because having more would "overwhelm them", and nobody makes the argument that "DPS players are too focused on DPS, and they're ignoring mechanics! This is why we need to reduce DPS rotations!" because everyone readily accepts that there are just bad DPS players and that you should move on, kick them or leave the party.

If you get tank players who are bad and who focus only on their DPS rotations, don't mitigate and have 0 awareness, it can make healing hell and can make performing well as a DPS player incredibly frustrating when suddenly you have aggro because the main tank died and the off tank is not paying attention at all and is just slapping away at the boss without their stance on. You take a tank buster as a healer/DPS and you die for no reason other than your tanks being bad. Nobody makes the argument that "DPS options overwhelm tanks!" or that they're "too focused on DPSing that they ignore the tanking part" and thus should have less DPS options and more of a focus on mitigation. Everyone accepts that there's just bad tank players and moves on.

Yet when it comes to healers, people who do not play them make the argument that "more things to do than spam 1 would overwhelm healers!" or "they'd just focus on their DPS rotations when they need to be HEALING!", as if healers are not allowed to have any agency at all. When it comes to our entire role, it must be continually reduced to the lowest common denominator because it's simply more visible to players when a healer is bad than when a DPS or a Tank is bad. And thus it warps around to people who do not play healers complaining about how our entire role plays, clutching their pearls at the idea that we may have more things to be doing than spamming 1-1-1 and that it would keep us from pressing our huge number of oGCD heals, which is how healing works.

We're in the situation where players feel as if it's fine for tanks and DPS to fail at content, but it's not fine for healers. But now tanks have an absurd amount of self healing and can help heal/shield DPS players and there are DPS with utility that allow them to heal like Reaper or Dancer. I know people are reluctant to kick bad healers because of how long it can take to fill their slot once they're gone, but perhaps it's the philosophy "healers shouldn't be allowed to fail at all and can't have anything more interesting to do during downtime" because it's annoying to tank/DPS players to have a bad healer which has led to that current situation?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

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I mean, you can say it's tired argument but it's literally one of the reasons why they changed it. You're talking to someone who loved HW DRK but had it changed by SE cause it was too difficult for most players. I'm not saying you're not wrong, but when the argument comes to who should we listen to the 75% of casuals or the 25% of hardcore players, the money is gonna follow the percentage. Do I think healers DPS should be as simplified as it is? According to my static healers it shouldn't, but according to the WHM in DF I have getting two glares off in an eight minute fight it should stay. Plus, every role is reduced to the lowest common denominator, it has been for years. Not saying it's right, just saying that's how it is. Tank stance was too hard so they chucked it. Three combo's were too hard give them two, or one.