5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most attacks in this game that are direct 1-hit kills are telegraphed in some way; a mechanic that kills you outright without providing some means of reading and reacting is garbage.

I get the feeling that a lot of people who play MMO's a lot don't get a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat.

Regardless, I like the fact that SE is recognizing and addressing some of the shoddy designs in their old content. The coincounter change was a good one.

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I mean it has a name for the attack, sure it's not telegraphed by a huge glowing orange indicator, but attacks that you can only dodge by reading its name exist in the game. (Shiva's axe/scythe kick and starboard/larboard from Omega come to mind among other things, as well as ram's/dragon's voice)

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I mean it has a name for the attack, sure it's not telegraphed by a huge glowing orange indicator, but attacks that you can only dodge by reading its name exist in the game. (Shiva's axe/scythe kick and starboard/larboard from Omega come to mind among other things, as well as ram's/dragon's voice)

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I don't believe any of those are 1 hit kills, but this is what I mean when I say I don't think people who play MMO's have a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat. Finding other examples of poorly designed combat mechanics in this MMO doesn't make them less poorly designed.

If there are other instances in this game of completely untelegraphed 1 hit kills then they I wouldn't be opposed to them being changed as well. It's just lazy crap design that honestly shouldn't even be in MMO's, regardless of how low the bar is currently set for MMO gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most attacks in this game that are direct 1-hit kills are telegraphed in some way; a mechanic that kills you outright without providing some means of reading it and reacting is garbage.

I get the feeling that people who play MMO's a lot don't get a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat.

Regardless, I like the fact that SE is recognizing and addressing some of the shoddy designs in their old content. The coincounter change is a good one.

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While I agree the one shot aspect was bad.. the learning to read castbars for information lesson was a good one. Especially since there are lots of other cyclopean model based enemies that repeat it. Swipe = get away from front, Swing = Get away. Amnesis has a probably a better implementation of the same mechanic with less punishment.. but the lesson was important for game knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Oh, so long castbar is the games telegraph for a 360 degree 1 hit kill AoE that's avoidable if you run a specific distance from the boss? My mistake then; I'll remember that the next time I see a long castbar on anything.

Attacks need telegraphs if you're required to avoid them to survive. A long cast bar doesn't tell you anything about what you need to do.

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Both 10-tonze Swipe and 100-tonze Swing are telegraphed (Swipe has it lifting its club up one handed during the cast while Swing has it grasped in both hands during the cast) and both are repeats of mechanics that a player was expected to have encountered in the Coerthus Central Highlands FATE The Eyes Have It. In the FATE the Cyclops uses 3 cast attacks: 10-tonze Swipe (orange cone AoE), 10-tonze Swing (orange circle AoE) and 100-tonze Swing (no orange circle AoE indicator longer cast time by same AoE as the 10-tonze version). In the FATE you were supposed to connect the terms Swipe with Cone AoE, Swing with Circle AoE and 100-tonze with the powered up version. Later appearances of Cyclops and Minotaur enemies have maintained and expanded upon the mechanics introduced in The Eyes Have It fight.

The biggest problem with Coincounter was that The Eyes Have It stopped being done regularly after 3.1 released and so players first encounter with a Cyclops/Minotaur was with the advanced version(s) instead of the introductory version. These changes are allowing Coincounter function as the introductory Cyclops/Minotaur it has become.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Both 10-tonze Swipe and 100-tonze Swing are telegraphed (Swipe has it lifting its club up one handed during the cast while Swing has it grasped in both hands during the cast) and both are repeats of mechanics that a player was expected to have encountered in the Coerthus Central Highlands FATE The Eyes Have It. In the FATE the Cyclops uses 3 cast attacks: 10-tonze Swipe (orange cone AoE), 10-tonze Swing (orange circle AoE) and 100-tonze Swing (no orange circle AoE indicator longer cast time by same AoE as the 10-tonze version). In the FATE you were supposed to connect the terms Swipe with Cone AoE, Swing with Circle AoE and 100-tonze with the powered up version. Later appearances of Cyclops and Minotaur enemies have maintained and expanded upon the mechanics introduced in The Eyes Have It fight.

The biggest problem with Coincounter was that The Eyes Have It stopped being done regularly after 3.1 released and so players first encounter with a Cyclops/Minotaur was with the advanced version(s) instead of the introductory version. These changes are allowing Coincounter function as the introductory Cyclops/Minotaur it has become.

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Umm, sorry but no. It being the same as some completely unrelated FATE that most new players would never encounter, because who the hell does FATES, doesn't count as a telegraph. If that mechanic appeared in a story or tutorial instance that was mandatory prior to going into AV then you'd have a point, but as it stands Coincounters attack is just a blindside one hit kill, which is crap design. For most people AV will be their first encounter with that mechanic; and it being a 1-hit kill prevents any learning and adjusting.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

While I agree the one shot aspect was bad.. the learning to read castbars for information lesson was a good one. Especially since there are lots of other cyclopean model based enemies that repeat it. Swipe = get away from front, Swing = Get away. Amnesis has a probably a better implementation of the same mechanic with less punishment.. but the lesson was important for game knowledge.

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I don't really buy that Coincounter was an important learning tool for some oh so common mechanic that's going to haunt new players going forward if they don't get familiar fast. IF it is, though, I wouldn't be opposed to simply lowering the damage so you survive it. The knockback and near death damage should be enough to connect the name with the bad you need to avoid. An untelegraphed 1 hit kill will always be bad design, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't believe any of those are 1 hit kills, but this is what I mean when I say I don't think people who play MMO's have a lot of exposure to games with well designed combat. Finding other examples of poorly designed combat mechanics in this MMO doesn't make them less poorly designed.

If there are other instances in this game of completely untelegraphed 1 hit kills then they I wouldn't be opposed to them being changed as well. It's just lazy crap design that honestly shouldn't even be in MMO's, regardless of how low the bar is currently set for MMO gameplay.

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Just because you don't like an aspect of combat doesn't mean it's poorly designed. Sure there are MMOs and games with combat systems that are leagues above FFXIV and its tab-targeting, but this game does pretty well at putting some variety into what limited options the combat has.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Just because you don't like an aspect of combat doesn't mean it's poorly designed. Sure there are MMOs and games with combat systems that are leagues above FFXIV and its tab-targeting, but this game does pretty well at putting some variety into what limited options the combat has.

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I'm not saying it's poorly designed because I don't like it. It's poorly designed because it's missing a key element that any attack needs, which is the ability to react and/or adjust. If it had a telegraph you could react... If it didn't kill you in 1 hit you could adjust. It's a pretty basic tenet that's used in pretty much any game with gameplay that's worth a damn. I view missing the boat on something that basic as being a little embarrassing, even for an MMO.

I simply applaud SE for recognizing it and doing something about it at least. And of course I'm not entirely surprised that a lot of the reactions to the change are "OH NOEZ!! HOW DARE U TRY TO FIX A DESIGN FAILURE IN AN OLD FIGHT! WE NEED THAT MECHANIC TO BE TRASH FOR SOME REASON!"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Umm, sorry but no. It being the same as some completely unrelated FATE that most new players would never encounter, because who the hell does FATES, doesn't count as a telegraph. If that mechanic appeared in a story or tutorial instance that was mandatory prior to going into AV then you'd have a point, but as it stands Coincounters attack is just crap design. For most people AV will be their first encounter with that mechanic; and it being a 1-hit kill prevents any learning and adjusting.

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During ARR it was hard to miss The Eyes Have It. It was just off the path when traveling to Whitebrim for the MSQ and Coerthus Central Highlands was one of the FATE grinding hot spots (which was the primary way to level during 2.X). AV was a lot harder to find in that it was an optional dungeon that required taking a detour to unlock it and was only required once you were trying to become a second lieutenant in your grand company.

It was very reasonable to expect knowledge of the FATE when entering AV during 2.X. Only afterwards were players often missing out on expected knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

During ARR it was hard to miss The Eyes Have It. It was just off the path when traveling to Whitebrim for the MSQ and Coerthus Central Highlands was one of the FATE grinding hot spots (which was the primary way to level during 2.X). AV was a lot harder to find in that it was an optional dungeon that required taking a detour to unlock it and was only required once you were trying to become a second lieutenant in your grand company.

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New players are far more likely to join a GC, which is something that's introduced in the story, than they are to stop and do any random FATES. FATES are pretty much obsolete at this point; they don't count as tutorials.

Even if that FATE might have been an expected tutorial in 2.x that's certainly not true now, so there's no reason for Coincounter to remain as he was.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

It's used in Void Glue (you see this in airship and sub parts still) and some low level alc stuff. It has historically been a pain to get since there is no reliable way to farm mobs for it, and you just have to send your retainers out for what you need. It seems odd to change it at such a late date, but it is nice to have another way to get something that really shouldn't be difficult to get at all.

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Also looks like it's used for a handful of Mythrite/Titanium weapons. A few of which I want to say are probably part of crafter class quests. Another good reason to not have them be so difficult to come by. But, the airship/sub parts probably remains a more consistent reason for making the flesh more readily available.