Just want to state there is a fine line of difference between someone running Coils in PF and someone actually getting Coils in DF in a rouQuote:
Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein
PF is the idea you're setting your time aside, so when you get a fight like 9 or 13 you're prepared to work through the wipes and get the clear no matter the cost.
DF in a rou is the idea you're doing this for a daily bonus, and just want to have it done in the most efficient way possible. It's something you're meant to just run to get it over with because you got like 6 more to do to snag that extra gil. Listen I can't speak for everyone here but my idea of a quick and easy rou is not guiding sprouts in the DF on a daily basis to manage those later coils because they aren't unga bunga level strats.
We're talking about the same DF that bailed out on Tsukuyomi NM because it was "too hard", and they didn't want to join the wipes. The same DF that leaves if Titania NM pops in prep that it'll most likely be a shitshow. The ones who STILL don't understand staying for the stack in E2N when this content is like 4 months old at this time even when they aren't first timers.
Putting them in the situations that require more proper thought and planning is too much for them, its why we keep bringing up TG Cid which is a boss that has extremely simple placement yet people can't manage.
You can vouch for the majority not meeting that trend and to an end I will agree, but with any piece of content coming into the limelight on a casual scale like Frontlines, Nier alliance raid, even Grand Cosmos recently, that keeps popping up even after explaining the mechanics.
Equal minded people can join a PF to run coils, not everyone in a DF rou is going to have the same thoughts especially when the wipes start happening with new people. For a better coils experience for everyone it should just stay in PF, you'll get it down fine and we can avoid the absolute headaches that it'll bring. Let alone adding in Coils when we keep getting new raids every even patch people still need to refine.
Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?
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11-08-2019, 11:30 PMNoitems
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11-08-2019, 11:52 PMHavenchildMay I ask you why you feel this way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitems
PF for pugging content has some level of expectancy, whether it's benchmarks in the fight as prerequisites, or Duty Complete tags. Patience is not the word I would use to define PF, when people notice the lack of progress regardless of explanations or not. People leave all the time even in that scenario.
In DF, when people enter into DF Roulette, Alliance being the biggest offender, they will either suceed, vote abandon, or people will just drop out either at the beginning, or after the first wipe. Orbonne Monastery for example, I have DF'd almost every single run I've ever did in there and have only ever failed to clear once; when the content was Day 1 out and we ran out of time. Every other time, people struggled with the fights, people left or vote abandon requests went out. I'd coach or make call outs and once the fight starts everyone moves accordingly and we got the clear. I'm sure alot of people can't relate to my experience with OM, but that doesn't mean DF is uncoachable either.
My point with both of these is that, the negative situations don't stop people from completing the content and they will continue to do Roulettes all the same. I remember when Omegascape 09N ->012N came out and everyone IMMEDIATELY felt the difficulty jump for story mode content. There were a few threads then, that the content might be overtuned for DF and people were wiping alot then too. Nothing changed, and DF adapted fairly well.
Of course, they will always be bad runs in ANY level of content, but there will easily be many more successes. Assuming that bad is the mainstream, is simply not true even in DF. If that's the case, alot more content would be nerfed regularly, ala Steps of Faith, at the time. -
11-09-2019, 12:17 AMNoitemsPatience is absolutely the most defining word of PF. You're personally setting your time to wait for people to fill, waiting to make sure everyone else is clear in the ready check before queuing in., and all the ins and outs of just doing a marker bonanza as these fights are. Patience also comes back if people leave because they didnt meet the expectations you set in your pf. If I'm joining a party on Hades currently working on Phase 3 and they can't even clear Phase 1 that's just a trap party. They absolutely have the right to leave during that time, just as coils would be listing yourself for whatever you're doing. A story run is simply just that unsynced and blitzing through, but if you decide to run them sync then your pf should be adjusted for that reason. The only reason someone would leave a pf outside of personal life issues if that it's not meeting your description in terms of progression (which can be the result of bad dps or not handling mechs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
The DF experience is random the whole way through, so that concept of people leaving is going to happen since there isn't a set notion ahead past it could be any of of these duties.
While the majority of people are focusing on Eden and Omegascape is becoming less and less picked being the middle child, you still see people wiping on 11-12 especially. The fact they're not picked as often isn't helping since people are trying to relearn everything and dodging. When everyone was running O12N it was current content people know they would have to be running anyway for Crystaloids. So you kinda had to get on with it in order to get your trade in items. Now that the phase has ended we are back to it being a game of chance if your group can manage it. Mainly on the tanks ends with the split adds.
Absolutely there will be, BUT it would be better to keep it to the content in the normal raid rou as is. Coils are just too far out there on the scale to put them all in there. You either do them all or do none, and personally with those higher number instances I'd rather avoid the headaches for everyone. Unless they want to make a Coils rou(which I doubt they will) they should be kept out of normal raid until they are all nerfed so hard into the ground they make Alte Roite look like Urth's Fount.
I've stated before this isn't a matter of people not being able to clear content, this is a matter of specific these raids being through into normal raid rou, which is meant to be a quick and easy outlet. You want your coils, just go on PF, after all you believe it's not an issue of patience right? -
11-09-2019, 12:24 AMHyoMinParkYou call it fear-mongering; I call it being realistic. I’m sorry if that offends you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
DF is not this sunshine-and-rainbows place where people smoothly complete all types of content; where people don’t struggle to grasp simple mechanics; where people actually listen to advice more often than ignore it; or a place where I think the Coils belong. You are clearly an individual who is over-faithful when it comes to the average DF experience, and I don’t know if that’s delusion, denial, or just willful ignorance on your part. If DF wasn’t a mess more times than not on any piece of content that presents a remote challenge, the Tales of the DF thread wouldn’t exist. People don’t create a megathread for when things go smoothly.
Read carefully Nestama’s posts about how people want quick and easy clears in their daily roulettes—because I feel as if you’re willfully ignoring those. And then try to guarantee me how “quick and easy” something like T9, T11, T12, or T13 would be. I’d doubt players could even do half of those fights without wiping and then subsequently Vote Abandoning—if they don’t just leave right on the spot as people do for EX primals. Since you claim to be a Battle Mentor, surely you’ve gotten at least one of those if you’ve bothered to touch Mentor Roulette.
Just because some of the Coils can be facerolled doesn’t mean they all belong in a roulette. If people’s purpose for running them is for the story, DF isn’t going to wait for them to get out of those cutscenes; they aren’t short. Best solution is to just continue to PF them. That way you have players willingly setting aside time for the content (cutscene watching included)—not shoved into wiping repeatedly because half the party doesn’t care to listen to instruction: something fairly common in DF. I stand by what I’ve been saying in this thread: taking a 30-minute penalty would be shorter than attempting to DF any of the more challenging floors.
As for checking your Lodestone, I’ve already done that. There’s not much to see. No public achievements or anything to really back up what you’re saying here, save for SCH BiS when you were on SCH. So telling people to go look at your Lodestone doesn’t really fulfill much in terms of proving the credentials you’re boasting. Perhaps make achievements public before you tell people to go check them out? -
11-09-2019, 01:32 AMHavenchildI just think the justification for something like O12N being in roulette, while people have been failing that since it was current, is not being equally distributed to Coil. Content at all in this game shouldn't be treated like a stepchild to the game. Coil more so, because it is an intricate part of FFXIV 2.0 story. The assumption that DF Roulette cannot handle the most punishing of mechanics in Coil, when it has done so before when it was first unlocked and allowed in DF back in the day, literally makes no sense. You didn't suddenly get a group of people who KNEW all of the mechanics off the bat. You had to explain. The same thing you have to do now if you get a carry in DF Roulette: Normal Raid / Alliance. An explanation should not somehow be the villain here. The player base will adapt. Guarantee you that if there was even a single cosmetic ingredient/item added to Coil that was highly sought after, this would not be a discussion. Everyone would be on it, casual / hardcore alike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitems
Understand the mentality of "due to other examples of DF struggles we've all run into, they should not add coil in" is literally the same reason why the community DOES suffer and bad players develop. Coil, for the very limited challenges it can represent in its current form, in 5.0 (again if you haven't tried it, do so), is not so different than what the community has currently seen. It can easily be (in its current form) the stepping stone, that players can bridge the gap between something like 012N / Eden Normal and ACTUAL Savage level in all of the above.
Duly noted on the Lodestone. I didn't even recall that was a setting (which is fixed).Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Aren't you and many others making an assumption though, that it will outright be a wipe fest? As I mentioned before, when these fights were added to DF initially, they were not outright wipe fests and people of all levels did them. A lot of times, you ran into 1- 4 players that hadn't done the content prior, largely cause it was tailored more at the time to static-based content due to no Cross World PF. It took an explanation or two, but due to over gearing, the content was still downable, a statistic mind you, that improved with time of exposure. Prior to coil though, there was no raiding-scene (it was the first of its kind). There were no tiers of Normal/Savage (obviously were not counting T6-T9 Savage). There was no DIFFICULT content that players "had" to do to progress in MSQ notwithstanding Steps of Faith, which wasn't difficult but actually put mechanics in the player's hands for the first time, that they NEEDED to RESPECT.
What has changed now, is the implementation of future normal mode/alliance raids each expansion, which actually contain mechanics/combos you need to respect to down the content as well as upgrade your gear. All of which are completed regularly and are currently part of roulettes. Now, more than ever, do examples exist of mechanics that have been reimplemented ad-nauseum which all stemmed from Coil in one form or another. Players complete this same content in DF nevertheless. To say they somehow can't appropriate the same experience to Coil, or assume as much, is a fallacy and indeed fear-mongering. Of course, it would be silly to say, that there will be ABSOLUTELY no wipes. I have not inferred that ever. But to assume the community can't do it? Nope, I won't sit here and say that. Not after what has successfully been completed already on DF Roulettes. Forget the fact that Coil has already been, at one point in time, successfully pugged on DF consistently. -
11-09-2019, 01:56 AMForteNightshadeYou still aren't grasping the fact Coil is considerably harder than any normal, and is harder than a good chunk of EX Primals. Not only are the mechanics far more demanding, one mistake can easily wipe the whole party. Getting hit by Landslide isn't going to kill five other people whereas Twister will. That alone will make people not want to touch any of them, especially when they can faceroll Alexander or Omega in less than half the time. What will happen is people will either leave on sight or demand to be kicked so they avoid the penalty. You needs only look at Orbonne Monastery, Meridianum or any other content where time versus efficiency is lop-sided. People don't want roulettes to take long, not when there are alternatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Furthermore, the whole point of even putting Coil in a roulette is so people can experience the story. No DF group will ever wait. And if cut-scenes are forced like MSQ Roulette, people will avoid raid roulette entirely since it doesn't give nearly enough rewards to be worth sitting through cut-scenes and trying to teach people Nael or Bahamut. Even if those rewards were buffed enough to compensate. Well, there have been several threads now complaining how people keep leaving Meridianum because Praetorium offers far better EXP despite only being slightly longer in terms of cut scene length. No matter how you slice it, Coil in the raid roulette would be a nightmare.
If they were to ever consider this, it'd need to go into its own roulette... and I suspect said roulette would almost never pop. -
11-09-2019, 02:16 AMNoitemsSE personally made it the red headed stepchild by designating it to it's own little world, and finally splitting the raids into story and savage so that new players didn't have the same experience coil gave. They still also continue to do this with content like BA that does feature more to the story if you clear as opposed to when it concludes when you finish Hydatos so they are no strangers to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
The fact O12 is still current to players trying to get their 390 weapon gives it much more weight just like Alexander was before Stormblood dropped. The playerbase of back then and the playerbase of now are two totally different demographics. Back when Coil WAS the only thing left to do of course more people would sink in time. Now that we're in 5.1 and new things are out if I'm queuing into normal raid I'd like to get it over asap so to get to other things. Heck I don't even think Coils were in a rou even back then. The majority I'm sure feels the same because I doubt the majority is clicking on five raids they like and praying "I hope I get them!" for the sake of leisure, they're doing the rou and getting it over quickly.
Discussion on this keeps coming back full circle so let me just give a summary of my entire argument:
I believe Coils should not be added to the normal raid roulette because:
A) It is meant for casual quick runs, and should not have to endure raids like T9 and T13 that will cause multiple repeated wipes over a time.
B) The DF playerbase has tendencies to act arrogant, completely disregard helpful hints, and are prone to vote abandoning/leaving on a whim if it's not the content they want, in turn wasting people's time again and again. While this is not the norm it will happen more so with Coils on the later end with more rigorous mechanics to handle. Examples of these actions are popular in some trials/raids including Tsukuyomi NM, Titania NM, and O12N.
C) The option to PF the fights is already there and with the baggage these fights have it would make sense for players who want to experience this story to do it on their own time. I would in the worst case take a roulette specifically for Coils if people want to experience the story/raids however would feel a better alternative is either PF or potentially even having the trust system (as it's planned to help with Prae and Castrum) allow players to experience it for what it is at their own leisure. -
11-09-2019, 04:04 AMDaeriion_Aeradiir"For no true reason"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Dude, I've been around since 2.0's alpha and have done literally every battle content as it was released, including world prog on many of the harder fights including Ultimates. I remember when the playerbase auto-left Ifrit hard mode in DF if you didn't get a PLD to chain stun every eruption because it was too hard to dodge for most people. Or if you didn't get a caster for LB3 since killing the nails legit was an actual dps check. When DF was basically a 95% failure rate on Titan HM in the DF between lack of skill, lag and lack of gear.
I've been around in the heat of every single "controversy" of this game. I remember when the concept of doing your rotation was too hard, thus Steps of Faith was too hard in the DF and remember countless abandonments and/or people insta-leaving, to the point trials roulette was almost impossible to queue for quite a while. Then I remember having to go through 6 different groups before getting my first Final Steps of Faith clear because people sucked, a story that would repeat literally 2x again with the final boss of SB & Castrum Fluminis. The rest of the topic has talked ad nauseum about how some of the easiest fights on paper (TG Cid, the fights I've listed above, Dun Scaith, Titania NM, literally could write an entire paragraph on these.) have failure rates way higher than what should be acceptable. Especially Titania. I leveled three characters, and between the three of them I needed 10 different groups. TEN groups to get three clears. When literally the hardest mechanic in that fight is "stack in a puddle." Don't even get me started on the hilariousness that was weeping city on release.
There's a reason "tales from the DF" exists. There's a reason many, many people say the quality of the DF is poor. It's not fear-mongering. It's valid concerns based on literal years of evidence, forum posts from people calling for nerfs on already trivial content. If you want to see how well DF would fare against the harder coils, go queue up each EX primal in the DF five times each alone with no help, and tell me your success rate & how many of those runs have someone leave instantly. You'll quickly see the reality of the playerbase around you.
I helped a group of super casual friends do coil synced in 5.08 as they wanted to do it legit for fun. As much as I love them, they're probably much more aligned with the average skill of a DF player than probably anyone you've run coils with in 5.0. We saw Allagan field and wiped to it multiple times. I had to painstakingly teach them to do towers. The towersets that involved 3 were a mess for at least 8 pulls before we lucked out. T9 took us literally three entire raid days (6 hours) to clear because of Golem Phase alone. I don't even want to talk about the craziness that was T11 & T12. Deaths and wipes galore. Keep in mind all of this was with voice communication, something DF would be lacking.
T1-4 could be allowed in the DF. T5 is a maybe since divebombs is the one mechanic I wouldn't trust the DF with even with the pit, which is also one of the more important mechanics that can kill everyone if its bungled. (Knocking people into the wall if they move too late, or knocking people out into the arena to get massacred by proceeding divebombs if they move too early and Twin spawns behind the group as a result.) T6-7 would be sketchier, but possible. T8 would be super sketch. T9 and up would just be lol.
When DF has had a historic failure rate unacceptable on the easier, basic fights in the game that are much more mechanically sparse, why are you insistent that adding Coils would result in anything different? -
11-09-2019, 05:21 AMKokonji
Considering my past experience of unsyncing them with my fc mate on early SB (half of our party is sprout, me included),
and got several wipes in nael because of the meteors and golems
yes, we wiped on unsynced T9, my fc mates doesn't tell the mech on purpose and only tell us after our first wipe,
even then, we need several tries to do the mech right and finally got our kills
Other experience I had trying T2 synced with pugs (someone put PF for synced T2 runs), one of the party member gladly teach us most of the mechanics,
but we still wiped so hard on allagan rot mechanic, that lead to vote abandon
imagine this happened on pugs, half of them are new to the raids, and have problem in communication (difference language as example),
surely the party will be gone in wipefest or vote abandon real quick, or even some of the pt member will booted out before it even began
so... I'd prefer that those coil raid be left out of our current dr normal raids -
11-09-2019, 07:38 AMTheMightyMollusk
On the one hand, I would love to see a Coils roulette, because the story is a big part of the lore and it really should be more easily available. But on the other hand, I was in a party today that wiped three times on normal Susano, whose mechanics consist entirely of "stack", "dodge", and "kill the rock" (and the sword phase, but that wasn't a problem).