Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

A little late to the party, but the OP does a great job at ignoring ALL benefits of ranged melee. Its a lot of hyperbole

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And what benefits are those, pray tell?

Before you say 'easier handling of mechanics', there are only two ranged baitable mechanics this raid tier (E1S first orbs and Black Smokers at E3S, the latter of which can actually be skipped entirely if the party has high enough DPS), and the tier in general is ridiculously catered to melee. For the few mechanics that may be tricky for melee to handle, teams have come up with ways to get around that (like having everyone stack on DPS flare in E2S, and orb configurations in E1S that let the melee stay inside for uptime). For the few mechanics that force melee to disengage from the boss, you don't lose any more than a single gcd at the very most unless the boss is positioned poorly, you have ping too high to risk getting hit, or you're just bad.

Then again, I'm not sure why someone who doesn't raid is trying to drive-by snip at an OP who has done their research.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

A little late to the party, but the OP does a great job at ignoring ALL benefits of ranged melee. Its a lot of hyperbole

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Speaking as a Ranged player for 6 years who's now dropped it? Your right there are plenty of benefits. It's just none of them actually carry any weight compared to the benefits of NOT bringing ranged.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

A little late to the party, but the OP does a great job at ignoring ALL benefits of ranged melee. Its a lot of hyperbole

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Please name the benefits.

All I can think of is the mobility.
Except if you play a BLM like a ranged DPS (Baiting mechanics and dodging like one), you'd actually do more damage than a ranged despite not having the ability to cast while moving.

Also while you are mentionning the OP, remind yourself that they are not only playing Ranged. OP also plays other jobs and has cleared Ultimate content as a Caster.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Please name the benefits.

All I can think of is the mobility.
Except if you play a BLM like a ranged DPS (Baiting mechanics and dodging like one), you'd actually do more damage than a ranged despite not having the ability to cast while moving.

Also while you are mentionning the OP, remind yourself that they are not only playing Ranged. OP also plays other jobs and has cleared Ultimate content as a Caster.

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Mobility alone is a huge benefit, because it provides many other sub benefits, and just lumping it into the word mobility massively understates what makes any-range/any-time gcds and skills valuable.

-Not having to alter play, or adapt/recover rotations due to mechanics,
-less needing to know the fight down to your specific skill speeds impacts, because heavy movement phases wont change your rotations or cancel skills.
-less impact on your rotation from other team members,
-ability to recover or adjust from failures without having to neglect or intentionally screw up your skill casts or rotations.
-Never having to risk danger by sneaking in positional
-Never having to hug tight, or worry about more specific over positioning to maintain GCD or other skill up-time. Good example of this is in E2 during chaos/retribution. Melees can maintain perfect up-time even during cycles, BUT it is massively more difficult to do so than as a ranged.
-Consequently to all of the above: less party adaptation is necessary, and your pDPS really can't be negatively effected by anyone elses actions unless they get you killed.
-Ability to suffer knockbacks without stressing about interruption. if you get the move off you get the move off.
-varied different raid events such as uplift in E4 require less foresight and planning than casters who can be interrupted.

Given ranged do have abilities that make some of these not apply, such as DNC for example needing to be in near melee range from time to time to perform perfectly.

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

This being siad, I don't think the range penalty should be anywhere near as big as it is. All ranged (minus BLM) right now need a significant buff, TBH their DPS should only be minimally behind the rest of the cast.

I also am of the apparent minority that thinks difficulty should be part of the metrics defining balance even tho it is arbitrarily hard to compare with fairness. (particularly because skill gaps in logs aren't accurate depictions due to the varying nature of auto attack's contributions on different classes/roles) Yet this is already in essence why ranged dps tax is considered justifiable at all.

People defending the ranged tax need to realize that they are directly using difficulty to justify balance. I see too many people on these forums go: "Difficulty shouldn't be considered for balance, it is its own reward" then literally say a moment later "Ranged should be taxed because they have mobility" Its literally hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Mobility alone is a huge benefit, because it provides many other sub benefits, and just lumping it into the word mobility massively understates what makes any-range/any-time gcds and skills valuable.

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I agree almost entirely with your points...except for the "massive decrease in difficulty" thing. You're highly overestimating how difficult melee gameplay actually is. Sure, melee dps come with some minor annoyances that ranged dps don't have to worry about, but that's all. Positionals are pretty much a non issue right now btw, given the presence of true north/roe and how little dps you lose by missing them. In most situations, melee dps can just follow the boss and choose a position for spread mechanics while still being in melee range...while ranged dps take care of bait machanics and go far for spread mechanics. Being a melee is not so hard at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Mobility alone is a huge benefit, because it provides many other sub benefits, and just lumping it into the word mobility massively understates what makes any range/any time gcds and skills valuable.

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gonna rearrange some of your points in my reply as i see at least some of them being better replied to as pairs or at least somewhat making the same point twice, if you feel i misrepresent your points feel free to call me out on that, i believe you at the least put quite some thought into your arguments so i don't want to come of as misrepresenting them even if i disagree.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

-Not having to alter play, or adapt/recover rotations due to mechanics
-varied different raid events such as uplift in E4 require less foresight and planning than casters who can be interrupted.
-ability to recover or adjust from failures without having to neglect or intentionally screw up your skill casts or rotations.

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that is a half truth, while most adapting for a ranged comes from downtime, and delaying things like cooldowns because of that hits everyone more or less equally if we talk "split second decision making" bard for example is rather high up compared to more strict classes that maybe have to look out for a single procc or can basically map out their whole rotation for the next 3 minutes in advance, i'm not even saying both these things are directly the same, but while some classes are quite reactive at their core others could basically do their rotation 100% exactly the same every single pull if there was no "adapting to the fight" necessary. Also you have to see that players are still humans, not having to recover rotations do to mechanics may be true at its core, but in reality people, especially if they have to do some "last second unexpected save because something went wrong before" will still mess up their rotation in that situation, and if anything having a stricter rotation can in that case actually help you stay on track compared to feeling overhelmed because something went wrong.

Now if you are a really great player, the guy that does 90% parses the try he died and otherwise runs all gold than yes, you can probably keep everything up perfectly fine as a ranged even if shit hits the fan, but in that case ->

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

-less impact on your rotation from other team members

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would become basically a non factor, if you are so good nothing can startle you and you just do a perfect job with nerves of steel than your team members should not mess up in ways that hinder your rotation to a meaningfull degree. this obviously works on the assumption that your team plays on the same level as you, but as we can never balance for every single eventuality balancing for a team of somewhat equal skill level is the lost logical, because while that is not necessary allways true, if you are a "allways gold" type of player and your team is lucky if the group average is blue class balance is the least thing holding back you in particular, or at least it should be if the balance is even semi-decent.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

-Never having to risk danger by sneaking in positional
-Never having to hug tight, or worry about more specific over positioning to maintain GCD or other skill uptime.

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here you are literally making the same point twice, just that you elaborate more on it the second time, not even disagreeing on the point in general, but is still the same argument twice in a row

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Good example of this is in E2 during chaos/retribution. Melees can maintain perfect uptime even during cycles, BUT it is massively more difficult to do so than as a ranged.

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and while that is true and i do believe perfect uptime where it can be achieved has to result in somewhat higher dps for the simple fact that in situations where it can't be achieved these classes would otherwise fall behind just as much or more than they would be ahead with some "here are your 150 dps extra for playing like you where glued to the boss" bonus i do have to mention that being the melee often means having less responsibility (and in a perfect world we would have a 1/1/1 +1of whatever dps distribution). i mostly raid in random groups right now, which means that i had some 3 ranged groups meaning i could take the melee spot, let me assure you that even as bard taking the melee position is a ton more relaxing than having the ranged spot, just yesterday i had the pleasure of taking a melee spot in e2s and basically didn't have to move an inch from my position, whereas as ranged normally i have to run in and out constantly to stay in heal range for group heals while otherwise running out all the time for things like darkfire III or taking the far away puddles in between again getting close to the boss so i can stack with my partner for the white/black markers while as a melee i can more or less plant my ass on the boss and be done.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

-Consequently to all of the above: less party adaptation is necessary, and your pDPS really can't be negatively effected by anyone elses actions unless they get you killed.

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again, you are basically just repeating what you allready said, which is fine to end the paragraph but isn't really a point on its own, the way you list it however makes it look like one.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

-Ability to suffer knockbacks without stressing about interruption. if you get the move off you get the move off.

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this is somewhat fair, though most knockbacks right now the main priority by far is "will it kick me off the platform" and at least bard (can't talk for the other 2 phys ranged) lacks a gap closer, you don't need it to do damage, fine, but if your position is "as close to the boss as possible" as is generally the case for melee than charging instantly to the boss is great to keep downtime low AND getting back in position, and as these things have charges knockbacks really shouldn't be a problem for a competent melee. yes, this doesn't work out that way in a potential 3 melee comp, but considering the class distribution theres zero reason why something like that should be encouraged, and a third ranged even with "freedom of movement" doesn't really offer anything either as again, just take the melee spot and just play a melee with less health and armor (which in fact can save your ass on some mechanics).

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Given ranged do have abilities that make some of these not apply, such as DNC for example needing to be in near melee range from time to time to perform perfectly.

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completly aside from "needing to be in or near melee range" from time to time being in melee range in general is in fact preferable most of the time it's where you will get group heals, and as melees have to be able to get out in case of mechanics where you have to move away max melee range/very slightly behind max melee range is pretty much your ideal position to a)get heals, b)be able to move in/out as necessary,in theory its great being able to stay 3 quarters of the arena away from the boss and still hit it, in practice it will get you killed on the first big aoe as you missed every single heal the group got as they stood close to the boss.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

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that is kinda double dipping, mind you i don't think intentionally but nonetheless, while all the things you called out are true, in practice its allways just half of them. casters don't have range restrictions or positionals (and again, the whole "can stay in max range" thing is mostly usefull IF their are mechanics to handle, of which we will probably never get a situation where 3 people will have to do it, it will 95% be down to two designed players, otherwise 4 so in practice at the point you got 2 ranged, physical or caster you are set either way), and melees have no cast times. Like yes, that is obvious when you think about it, but people often use the argument of "you don't have A B and C to deal with, your life is so much easier than mine" while ignoring that they themselves only have to deal with a single out of 3,5,20 things they quoted.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

This being siad, I don't think the range penalty should be anywhere near as big as it is. All ranged (minus BLM) right now need a significant buff, TBH their DPS should only be minimally behind the rest of the cast.

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see, now thats where i'm generally with you, i do think their needs to be some form of "ranged adjustement" i just don't think it should make them generally weaker than others, fact of the matter is melees (and to a way lesser extent casters) need to have a slight advantage in a perfect scenario, otherwise they could never compete in a scenario that well, is not perfect. i do however think that should just be that, having them stronger in an ideal case in way which kinda gets muddled down like "super mega awesome uptime fight, melee leads by 150-300 dps"->"average fight, classes are as equal as the balance team can manage"->"holy shit this fight is so much running...., ranged actually should have the advantage". Because that is what their advantage is, they shine when movement is needed, if even if movement is needed they still don't outshine others that advantage is overtaxed.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

I also am of the apparent minority that thinks difficulty should be part of the metrics defining balance even tho it is arbitrarily hard to compare with fairness. (particularily because skill gaps in logs aren't accurate depictions because of the varying nature of auto attack's contributions on different classes/roles) Yet this is already in essence why ranged dps tax is considered justifiable at all.

People defending the ranged tax need to realize that they are directly using difficulty to justify balance. I see too many people on these forums go: "Difficulty shouldn't be considered for balance, it is its own reward" then literally say a moment later "Ranged should be taxed because they have mobility" Its literally hypocritical.

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a very good point and while i will indeed sit tightly in the "difficulty should not define balance", if nothing else than because its factually way to subjective (bear in mind if you argue for balancing around difficulty that would have to be done for every class as obviously not every melee is equal either, and neither is every caster if your interest really is a fair balance) i'm not gonna argue on your principals, its a fair opinion, and yes, way to many people are pretty hypocritical if it suits their point

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Idk, they did say they want the raids to be more accessible/easier to more players and in the recent live letter they mentioned they're going to adjust all the ranged DPS so I think they'll do just that. I really do think ranged DPS is just undertuned while everyone else at the top is actually balanced (except MNK and SAM I guess).

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I actually agree with this.
Some jobs are almost perfect atm (blm as example) the other jobs should see tweaks possibly to gameplay, utilities and dmg to bring the gap closer

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

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Not really, all dps roles have skillsets a person needs to have to be able to optimize a class, casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

At the moment the average machinist has an CPM of 45.1, Bard has a CPM of 43.5, and DNC has a CPM of 38.4, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM classes respectively. Ranged has some of the busiest rotations, and despite being constantly busy you're expected to bait certain mechanics so melee don't have to do them and can keep their precious uptime.

That is to say, melee, casters, and ranged all have different playstyles, they each have their own respective difficulties and people who think ranged is easy probably haven't played it enough.

RDPS of pure dps classes should be equal, with equal rdps each jobs will be selected based on the players personal taste. If you like the ascetic of BLM, let them play BLM of they prefer SAM let them play it. If they prefer MCH they should be able to without the fear of exclusion because their job rather than their skill level is not good enough. You cannot balance dps based upon perceived difficulty because that is entirely subjective and more importantly it does not influence raid selection. Either that or remove enrage timers and let people take as long as necessary to finish a fight.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I actually agree with this.
Some jobs are almost perfect atm (blm as example) the other jobs should see tweaks possibly to gameplay, utilities and dmg to bring the gap closer

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one should be carful with statements like this... blm is fine now if u compare him with the other underrated cls atm... but voices will raise if the dmg gap will shrink - cause "blm has to stand out with his dmg due to lack of utility" phrase. now what if mnk and blm just would be ahead of 200-300 dps again? is blm broke again in that scenario? I bet half of the comm would say so... - so yeah blm is fine as long others lack - but where the border between overturned and undertuned raw dps cls like sam/blm? is it like in the early days? a few hundred? or like atm a few thousands?... Blm will never be "perfect" if all other cls would be balanced right.