Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

Because even in most fights that require two tanks at any given time it's just one of them tanking the boss, while the other is dpsing?

As for sam as long as potencies are unchanged it will keep the gap size relative to other dps even as ilv increases, though at the moment some of the other dps jobs are quite lacking so I think we can expect some of the lower dps jobs being brought up closer to sam, especially the ones with less dps utilities like blm.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Because even in most fights that require two tanks at any given time it's just one of them tanking the boss, while the other is dpsing?

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Considering I try to advocate more tank stance uptime, which would be the cause of tanks offering less overall DPS than current contribution, I dare say that the tank not tanking is pretty much not concerned :p

And there's still a possibility that our right side won't increase our damage output anymore, so DPS might scale better than tanks.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering I try to advocate more tank stance uptime, which would be the cause of tanks offering less overall DPS than actuall contribution, I dare say, that the tank not taking the boss is pretty much not concerned :p

And there's still a possibility that our right side won't increase our damage output anymore, so DPS might scale better than tanks.

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Well maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were advocating for turtle tanking viability by allowing for a fifth dps to replace the second tank. If you're trying to push for even more penalizing tank stance penalties, I don't think that'll happen since that'll just push the skill gap wider between good players and bad players, since generally the key difference between good tanks (in good groups) and average tanks lie in their ability to minimize tank stance uptime. Tank stance is the only mitigation that comes at a huge cost of dps so it's always the first thing you remove when you have a surplus of mitigation.

I don't think they'll keep the current system with str scaling and 0 str right side for long, it's stupid for tanks to be the only one to benefit the least from gearing up, and it'll make fending accs worthless drops (or at the very least they have the least worth, compared to dps/heal accs). It's not fun when during early progression your group has to pray for the chests to NOT drop fending accs since they offer the least benefit to the group.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Well maybe I misunderstood you but I thought you were advocating for turtle tanking viability by allowing for a fifth dps to replace the second tank.

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This is one option, but not the one I suggested here. What I suggested is for enmity management to be rewarding, either by linking it to a type of debuff that would benefit other members, or by increasing the damage of DPS so that perfect rotation would inevitably ripp aggro from tank that don't know how to properly generate enmity (Which would have a higher skill ceiling). So, the more skilled your DPS are, the more uptime you'd need on your tank stance, and the more skilled you would be at generating enmity , the more leeway you'd give your DPS to go full powered.

As for VIT acc being useless, we still need to see how tight the HP checks will be on Omega Savage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for VIT acc being useless, we still need to see how tight the HP checks will be on Omega Savage.

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VIT accessory drops will always be useless compared to the DPS/Healer acc drops if they still provide no damage. They won't ever make the later turns have a tank HP check beyond the best you can get at week 1 otherwise it becomes an issue if you're lucky enough to get tank drops to even progress.

Nah they will never tune hp checks that tight in savage. As long as you have access to good healers and co-tank who's fine with doing multiple tank swaps for mitigation you won't need as much hp as those who don't (i.e. pugs). If tanks in good statics need 5 fending accs to live then pug tanks will die lol. Based on the clear rate the devs are happy with (creator savage clear rate) they'd tune savage raids to be within the reach of pugs.

I'll still go in with 5 fending accs at the start for the extra safety net, but after optimizing I would start switching them with slaying accs unless they patch 270 accs to be role locked (the most obvious choice for them, since allowing a 12k hp loss would just widen the skill gaps between good tanks and bad tanks just like in gordias).

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

VIT accessory drops will always be useless

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Thank you, Nostradamus. Glad to know someone can see the future.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Nah they will never tune hp checks that tight in savage. As long as you have access to good healers and co-tank who's fine with doing multiple tank swaps for mitigation you won't need as much hp as those who don't (i.e. pugs). If tanks in good statics need 5 fending accs to live then pug tanks will die lol. Based on the clear rate the devs are happy with (creator savage clear rate) they'd tune savage raids to be within the reach of pugs.

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This is Savage content, it's not supposed to be tuned down for people that can't properly work as a team.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is Savage content, it's not supposed to be tuned down for people that can't properly work as a team.

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Can you say that with a straight face after seeing creator savage, lol. Heck even in creator savage most of the NA/EU servers don't even come close to JP servers' clear rates (and at least in Tonberry, the "outsider" JP server, most of the clears are from pugs). If they tune it harder than what the pugs here can handle (and mind you, pug strats here revolve around one turtle MT and one MH pretty much healing all the time, so that's definitely not even close to proper teamwork), clear rates will plummet.

Also fallenwings has a point, if you tune hp checks to require more than what you can get with full crafted gear, your progress would rely on luck since if you don't get fending gear drops you can't pass the hp checks. That'll require multiple weeks of world class progression like gordias, and who knows how long average raiders would take.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Also fallenwings has a point, if you tune hp checks to require more than what you can get with full crafted gear, your progress would rely on luck since if you don't get fending gear drops you can't pass the hp checks. That'll require multiple weeks of world class progression like gordias, and who knows how long average raiders would take.

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Considering people advocate slaying acc, I'm pretty sure it will give less HP than crafted VIT acc. Besides, do we know how much HP we'll miss by using crafted VIT accessories ? And considering that they'll still be weaker than what you can buy with tomestone, then having the best gear before savage is not based on luck at all.

It depends on how long the devs want the world racer groups take to clear the raid tier. Considering creator was cleared in the first week I'd assume that full crafted accs would at least be enough to pass the hp checks. On the other hand midas was cleared near the start of third week, when people got their tomestone weapons, so I guess it was intentional that the dps/heal/hp checks in creator was passable in full crafted gear.

Also slaying accs would only be considered after making sure you have enough hp/mitigation without the fending accs, which may actually only be possible after gearing up a bit, if the hp checks are tight in full crafted fending gear. We don't know yet how low our hp can go to survive in savage, but at the very least I'm pretty sure we won't need more than full 320 fending gear give us.