SAM out classing all other DPS

Its more complicated. A DRGs contribution, for example, is vastly higher if there is a SAM in the group than if there was a Summoner, because of the way his buffs and positioning usually works out. Certain combinations work better than others, and thus certain setups will vastly outperform others. SAM's value is that he slots in more easily than the old MNK into more different setups, less picky about his support, and helping out tanks (thus freeing up choice there and not requiring a Ninja) with slashing debuff.

Mantra, as almost all defensive support, isnt all that good because healing (so far) is easy and not an issue, same goes for mitigating damage. Its only about DPS, and there lies the problem.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

I think most people are fully aware that SAM was designed to be pure damage and out dps other jobs.

The question isn't if SAM should be doing more damage than other jobs, but instead how much more damage should SAM be doing than other jobs?

People need to be asking whether or not it's ok if SAM has around 600 more dps than DRG for example, or 1000 more dps than MCH.

At what point does the "utility" or raid buffs other jobs bring become weak in comparison to the difference in dmg you gain by bringing a SAM.

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I don't know, reading this thread has me thinking that people really don't care one way or the other, how SAM was meant to be designed.

And trying to think about when utility/raid buffs become weak in comparison to flat damage isn't so much a question. Raw damage on an individual Job needs to contribute more than raid/utility buffs AND the raw damage of the next most capable Jobs.

Right now, I don't know that I can say SAM is in the best of spots, because the highest SAM damage we've seen is in the 4600's, but are EXTREMELY lucky Crit/DH+Cit heavy runs. We're starting to see some other Jobs produce numbers VERY close to that (SMN in the 4400's, DRG above 4100, NIN in the 4200's). So SAM is operating, at best, around 10% higher than the majority of Jobs.

Let's take that away from SAM, and say that's it's utility, and that they just deal 4200 average DPS like most everyone else. That's 400 or so total rDPS contribution from SAM. Compared to the 300-ish from Disembowel+Sight+Litany. Compared to the 400-500 rDPS contribution from NIN. You could go on and on. The discrepancy isn't enough to put SAM comfortably ahead of anyone. And it's even less in the face of progression, where RDM's raise/cures might potentially be the difference of a World First clear and a wipe, for example. Anyways. It's a very fine line is the idea, and right now, SAM is on the scarier side of losing importance, than the safer side.

It is in a far better place as far as playstyle goes, and that's without saying. Some other Jobs need A LOT of love, but I'm not sure it's like, directly related to SAM though.

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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Someone tell me how it's fair for a Monk to lose GL3 for a 330 potency attack that's annoying AF to time, when Samurai has a 720 (1080 potency in practice) that uses 3 Sen but does not remove any inherent buffs to the rest of their autos/weaponskills/abilities so they can(and should) pop it as soon as ready?

Or maybe someone else can tell me what situation is a Monk one of the top 3 DPS jobs you should ever have in your composition?

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There's more I wanted to quote, but I can respond all the same. For one, the whole point about Mantra is that people didn't care about MNK's having a stronger version, even though it can and should have been seen as an added benefit to their raw DPS. People can ignore it, it will not change the fact that it exists, and that it's always added something to the party.

Two. All of MNK's skills hit for low potency because they have an insane amount of buffs modifying them. FoF, Twin Snakes, GL3, and now, Riddle of Fire all increase damage (potency). The potency of Tornado Kick after all of THOSE add into it, is absolutely bonkers. If you want to get deep into SAM, it costs 3 Sen to activate Midare Setsugekka. 3 Sen can alternatively be used to gain 60 Kenki. Kenki can be used on gap closers, disengages, potency buffs, AoE, single-target damage, you name it. So yes, Midare DOES cost something to use. Flexibility. Also, while Midare is strong, it takes 20+ seconds to build to it, and 1.5 seconds to cast it. AND you have to alternate between 3 Sen for that, their Sen consuming DoT, and using Sen for Hagakure every 2 rotations to be effective.

And finally, you ask why people should take MNK and it's simple. If people run the typical 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, which has only changed for 1 tier since 2.0, and only because of how busted BRD/MCH were with disembowel, then you're choosing NIN and one other melee. MNK doesn't have to compete with DRG, because it's damage is higher while offering a decent bit to the party. It only competes with SAM, and the only reason SAM is winning out now is because of the very slight damage difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Right now, I don't know that I can say SAM is in the best of spots, because the highest SAM damage we've seen is in the 4600's, but are EXTREMELY lucky Crit/DH+Cit heavy runs. We're starting to see some other Jobs produce numbers VERY close to that (SMN in the 4400's, DRG above 4100, NIN in the 4200's). So SAM is operating, at best, around 10% higher than the majority of Jobs.

Let's take that away from SAM, and say that's it's utility, and that they just deal 4100 DPS like everyone else. That's 400-500 total rDPS contribution, is what I'd consider that. Compared to the 300-ish from Disembowel+Sight+Litany. Compared to the 400-500 rDPS contribution from NIN. You could go on and on. That gives SAM very little wiggle room. Put everyone more consistently in the 4200-4300 area, and SAM is basically worthless.

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Well just using DRG as an example... DRG's raid utility is purely based on increases the raids overall damage. Litany, disembowel, and Sight. Altogether, like you say, this is about 300 overall raid dps increase (give or take average). However since SAM is doing roughly 600 more dps than DRG, again average from extreme parsing, you could surmise that bringing a SAM right now would net your raid about 300 more overall raid dps than if you brought a DRG.

Add to this, that disembowel requires you to have a bard in the group to benefit, and has no bearing at all without one. Also job variation with crit being useful or not varies as some benefit more than others, making litany only extremely valuable to comps that feed on crit. This means DRG being valuable is dependent upon your raid group composition.

SAM, on top of having 300 average more dps than DRG for the raid, also fits into any composition without being reliant on other jobs to perform well.

You could do this comparison to other dps jobs as well and see similar results. I will not say that SAM is outperforming every other dps job, for example Ninja is performing extremely well at the moment with high dmg and great raid utility, but it is definitely outshining some others at the moment.

like i have said previously in this thread, if a single class brings more damage than other classes can be buffed to do, then only that class will be brought to raids. (the only exception is fights that REQUIRE melee and ranged in order to complete mechanics) as it currently stands, the highest possible dps group actually has 4 samurai in it. This is a problem that will manifest itself in progression and farm groups unless sam are brought back in line with other classes.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

SAM, on top of having 300 average more dps than DRG for the raid, also fits into any composition without being reliant on other jobs to perform well.

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That is true, I can give you at least that much. Outside of NIN, SAM has the easiest time fitting in a comp, since it doesn't depend on physical weaponskills (like MNK with brotherhood), or a melee/ranged damage dealer (like DRG with Dragonsight and BRD/MCH). Also, DRG is in the worst place right now, because it depends on such specific things to bring out it's more 'support' based role they're trying to apply to it. They need a lot of love, but that's another conversation entirely.

That being said, SAM's self-reliance (in comparison to party comp) for higher damage, is a gift and curse. It makes it easier to fit within a comp, but the moment you die, you've forfeited all tangible utility you've offered to the party, since your DPS will be that of any other competing Job, MINUS their buffs. You depend on yourself, and yourself alone to bring out the utility in the Job.

NIN can die after applying TA, and the whole party will still benefit. NIN can be res'd, and still put up TA for everyone to benefit. Same for any other party utility. Since it benefits the party, it requires less personal accountability. Not to mention, we can look at the overall rDPS increase of these skills in a sustained sense, but it's important to see the immediate benefits they can have when applied. Yeah, a SAM does x amount more sustained DPS, and yes, Midare is strong, but TA is 10% extra damage from your whole party on an Add, or DPS check. TA and party buffs are going to win out for making things easier to deal with on a moment by moment basis.

SAM is working as intended. It's a powerful DPS class due to having no utility. Now that the community had enough time to understand SAM, most dungeon runs go by pretty fast. Even their conal aoe is strong in itself.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Ninja DPS is pretty good now, with its buffs like TA I bet the overall contribution is better than Samurai, plus better AoE.

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As a Lv63 NIN and Lv58 SAM, I can confirm that my SAM's aoe is stronger, even if I'm not self-buffed from Jinpu.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It makes it easier to fit within a comp, but the moment you die, you've forfeited all tangible utility you've offered to the party, since your DPS will be that of any other competing Job, MINUS their buffs. You depend on yourself, and yourself alone to bring out the utility in the Job.

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Progressing in savage level content with entry level gear means you will not be afforded with the luxury of anyone dying due to hard enrage timers. so the arguement of "dying" does not apply to groups that are min/maxing. i've said it before and i'll say it again. damage on it's own can not be a reason to bring a class or raids will end up stacking that class and foregoing classes that sacrifice damage for utility.

You guys need to play samurai before you even consider posting here lol

Samurai opener is literally rocket science! And the gauge management it's important too it's alot more complicated then you think

I tried to master the samurai opener and could never get it right