MNK 4.0 Changes . . . I'm not a fan tbh

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

If this doesn't work out, just play Samurai until some more balancing adjustment patches. Or just enjoy sub-optimal jobs anyway, unless you need to change for a savage raid group. The more jobs we get, the harder it is to keep them all equally viable. There's gonna be periods where certain jobs are less desirable. So much gets altered in an expansion that balancing efforts basically start from scratch again, but they will do significant post-launch fixes as always. Just how the cycle goes.

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Monk's been undesirable for basically all of 3.0. We've been the joke dps for two years, or at the very least post-Gordias. With all due respect, I think it is very easy for someone who hasn't had to put up with all the ribbing and being told your main class is useless for an entire expansion to tell us to just deal with it - after all, even with the launch issues at 3.0, as far as I'm aware there's never been a "delete mch" meme.

I do actually need to change for my static, because while I'm most comfortable with monk as a dps class and have the most fun with it, the proposed changes would essentially make me borderline useless for the role that I'm supposed to play. I'm not about to demand that seven other people cater to me, especially not when the class I'd be playing hits like a wet noodle and has little-to-no utility. That's why I'll likely be switching to sam for progression despite not really wanting to.

There's been 18 pages of people pointing out exactly why the proposed changes are pretty terrible. Sub-optimal is one thing. Clunky, counter-intuitive, and overly stripped-down and simplified is another.

Yeah, you can enjoy a class regardless of viability...but that requires it being enjoyable to play, and 4.0 mnk doesn't look like it will be.

There is a lot of upset people here, and I don't want to come off as rude but both here and reddit people seem more upset that Sam was designed to be top DPS AND mnk players wanted to stay on top and just get a little more raid utility.

These changes don't make sense either and I'm not a very experienced mnk only played it a bit back in ARR but, even though I don't represent the populace, I never minded a Mnk in any party. (This was a year ago and I'm coming back for SB) I just don't remember the plight of Mnks being this bad, you guys made it seem as though you couldn't get Into simple pugs to accomplish things.

I will reserve judgement for SB, might level mnk after Sam since I've do e Drg for too long.

I wouldn't mind my dps taking a hit if at least we got some new stuff to play around with. The problem is....we play exactly the same, and no new traits aren't gonna change the way the job plays. Especially when those traits focus on...shoulder tackle, and RNG tacked on RNG.

I pray whatever changes made to monk since the April build were significant and worthwhile. At this point, im dying to see the patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

There is a lot of upset people here, and I don't want to come off as rude but both here and reddit people seem more upset that Sam was designed to be top DPS AND mnk players wanted to stay on top and just get a little more raid utility.

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I see more people upset that MNK just spent 2 years being unquestionably worse then DRG/NIN and now SAM will actually be a good version of HW MNK while SB MNK is projected to be the worst melee DPS for another expansion. Most of the good MNK's I've talked to plan on changing from MNK if the current tooltips don't change next week.

(I'm french, so sorry for my bad english)

Here all the change / idea I have for the monk. 4,0 isn't out wet so it's a lot of speculation because we don't know the final product.

All the change / idea aren't final and I will try to not talk about number. If my monk look to powerful, all can be change ! For me, the problem with monk isn't global DPS (the nerf of some skill isn't the most inportant because you can change it), but the concept of the job who is know wrong execute and contradictory. The monk don't have is own identity !

I will come back and judge the job after being Level 70 with some hour in my hand !

Change

Touch of Death :*This skill have to stay. If not, they should make some adjustment to Demolish

Arm Of The Destroyer :*The effect (Silence) should not depend of the form, this skill is to much situational because of this. It should be an oGCD with a short reset. But, for compensate the short reset the skill should become a single target without damage.

Demolish :*For conpensate the lost of Touch of death and Fracture, they shoul buff that skill.

Fists of Wind :*Currently this stance is only use for moving faster in town. This stance should reduce weaponskill cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay plus increases movement speed, to conpensate the lost of DPS du to not being in Fist of Fire. Fist of Wind must become an alternative to Fist of Fire : Power Mode or Speed Mode ! The two stances will give the opportunity to have two kind of monks, but the global DPS have to stay the same between these two. The Fire have to be more powerful, but slower. The wind have to be faster, but weaker and the TP should be reduce. The monk's skills should have different effect because of the stance (like they made for Shoulder Tackle). The difference should be more like QoL and playstyle but the two stance should be viable for combat ! Fist of Earth must be more défensive / support. So Fist of Fire = Power Mode / Fist of Wind = Speed Mode / Fist of Earth = Defense Mode.

One Ilm Punch :*The skill should be remove to let Steel Peak do the Stun. Like Arm of the Destroyer, this skill is to much situational because of form. With the adjustment of Arm of the Destroyer the all thing will be more logic. For not becoming a clone of Leg Sweep who is now a cross role, Steel Peak should have an advantage and keep the damage.

Dragon Kick :*To give monk a better group utility, the skill should reduce the target physical resistance !

Perfect Balance :*The reset should be reduce. 30s min or 60s max. (Maybe 30 with Fist of Wind and 60 with Fist of Fire).*

Tornado Kick :*The potency should be buff. The cost (3 Stack of GL) is too hisgh for the potency and the skill is to much situational. And the new skill Riddle of Earth kill the utility of Tornado Kick in Boss jump phase (keeping stack is more OP). Thats why they should reduce the reset of Perfect Balance because this will grant us the possibilty to make more Tornado Kick (if Perfect Balance resent is good, we don't need buff potency for Tornado Kick. Perfect Balance is needed for the usage of Tornado Kick (it's faster to gain your 3 stack).

Deep Méditation :*It's hard to judge because we only have the tool type. 30% look per critical hit seem a little low. Maybe too much RNG (RNG with crit + RNG of 30%). I'll wait until Stormblood.

Riddle Of Earth :*The skill should give 3 stack of GL and not only refresh GL. This skill kill Tornado Kick usage in boss jump phase because it's more OP to keep your 3 stack of GL. If the potency of Tornado Kick isn't buff, Riddle of Earth have to give 3 GL stacks, because that give you the opportunity to keep using Tornado Kick and then have 3 stack again. Riddle can also give the 3 stacks of GL without being hit, but this would kill Perfect Balance.

Shoulder Tackle (Wind) :* This skill will be useful, only if Fist of Wind is viable in combat !

Shoulder Tackle (Earth) :*This skill like Fist of Earth should be a defensive skill. It would be interesting if we were able to buff to a partner by using Earth Shoulder Tackles. Dash and apply a buff on a ally who grant him a shield or something like cover or maybe heal him (this one can be cool with mantra). With this kind of skill the Fist of Earth can become more defensive / support and give monk some new group utility.

Riddle Of Fire : This skill is here only for conpensate the lost of Blood for Blood. This skill is in contradiction with the design of the monk (because of the lost of the speed) ; the fastest DPS. This skill will be very different with the modifications of the fists.

Brotherhood :*Like Deep Meditation, it's hard to judge without playing. The skill look more RNG than Deep Meditation because of an other level of RNG ; the team. With this skill, monk is to much team dependent. Also, the fact that the monk don't have the 5% buff is strange. I'll wait until Stormblood.

The Concept of (my) Monk

Like I said in the change of Fist of Wind, this stance have to be an alternative to Fist of Fire.
The idea behind this (new) monk is having a 2 in 1 job or maybe 3 in 1. I have in mind something like "choose your monk", and the two stance have to stay viable in combat. The concept will give to the monk something unique, becoming the only job with two combat mode. The stance dance will still be possible, but the change will be more about the playstyle and will change the skills. It's not some kind of a buff ! It's not like a tank who change stance because when a tank change he change his role (MT or OT / Tank or DPS). The idea is to make two kind of monk player some who play fire style and some who play wind style.

A good exemple is the 3.0 Bard
Imagine a bard with minuet (casting) and a Bard without (festest), but the two are viable in combat ! That wasn't the case because without minuet the DPS of bard was too low !

Here an example from an other video game ; Mortal Kombat. When you choose Scorpion, you have to choose a style / variation (Ninjutsu / Hellfire / Inferno). The variation have things in common, some effect change and new move are add. The result is that one character have 3 different gameplay, but without havind 3 completely new moveset.

The Fist of Earth on the other hand will still be more support / defensive and will never be viable in combat keeping is place of an situational stance.

So, monk will be a 2 in 1 job with a situational defensive stance !

The dev idea about making fists more important isn't bad, but it's poorly executed because Fist of Wind base is useless. The idea behind making variation of the skill because of the stance is good too, but not enouth.

The Fists

Fists of Earth :*Reduces damage taken. Cannot be used with Fists of Fire or Fists of Wind, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse.

Fists of Wind :*Increases movement speed. Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time and auto-attack delay. Reduce TP cost. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Fire, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse. Note : It may be possible that with all the speed boost the GCD is too fast, making positioning too hard. It may be good to cancel the positiong with Fists of Wind. That would make the speed playstyle more good and will make a higher difference between Fire and Wind.

Fists of Fire :*Increases damage dealt. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Wind, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse.

Skill variation

(These are exemple of some)


Shoulder Tackle

Earth : Rushes target and increases the physical and magic defense of target and yours.

Or

Earth : Rushes target and take all physical and magical damage intended for another party member. Can only be used when member is closer than 10 yalms.

Or

Earth : Rushes target and Restores target's HP and yours.

Wind : Rushes target and delivers an attack. You can do it twice. (We should have a timer between the time, but I don't know how long)

Fire : Rushes target and delivers an attack. (This one is stronger).

Or

Fire : Rushes target and delivers an attack. Damage over time.


Mantra


Earth : Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20 % for self and nearby party members.

Wind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay for self and nearby party members.

Fire : Increases damage dealt for self and nearby party members.

Or

Fire : Increases critical hit rate of self and nearby party members


Riddle of


Earth : Reduces damage taken. Grant you Greased Lightning III when hit.

Wind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay

Fire : Increases damage dealt.


Tornado Kick


Wind : Delivers an attack. Loose one stack of Greased Lightning.

Fire : Delivers an attack. Can only be used when under the effect of Greased Lightning III. Effect fades upon execution.

Other Idea

The Fists of Wind can also reduce the cost of Purification and The Forbidden Chakra. We can also buff the RNG of Brotherhood and Deep Meditation.

The time of DoT like Demolish, buff and debuff can also be different between Fire and Wind stance.

A 4th move can be add on the combo, this one can also be unique with the stance. I think the 4th move should not be a GCD, because it maybe cause some problem for refreshing GL. An oGCD who proc after the execution of Snap Punch, Demolish or Rockbreaker. The skill will have a reset to prevent spam with Perfect Balance. The 4th move with Fire should have more potency but proc lees often (every 6 GCD = 2 combos) and the Wind one will should be weaker but more regular (every 3 GCD = 1 combo).

I said nothing about that but we can also change the GL stack with the stance :
Earth : One stack grant more defense (Yellow lightning in HUB)
Wind : One stack grant more speed (Blue lightning in HUB)
Fire : One stack grant more attack (Red lightning in HUB)

Conclusion

Like I said previously, I tried to not talk about potency and purcentage, because I don't want to put strange number. It's very logic that the skills under Fire are stronger than Wind one, but the Wind skill conpensate with their execution speed. We can translate this like that : If Fire strike one hit at 100, Wind strike two hit at 50. The result must be the same !

With this system, monk will be playable for two type of players ; Players who want big number and the players who want fast gameplay. It's not necessary to switch between the stances, but dancing with stances can make the difference between top player and more casual player ( the top player will look at choose the better stance, in the good situation). The identity of the Fists is more important et the difference between them will give to the monk player the possibility to have two gameplay ! This monk also have a better group utility with more tool to help allies. It still have the core of the job (Speed / Dynamic / Positioning / DPS) and grant him some diversity. The Job will have something unique and is own identity : The only Job with two gameplay / playstyle (not 3 because Fists of Earth will not be able to make the fight. It will be still an defensice and situational stance).

But I know I'm dreaming because all these change are too big for a simple patch. It's look more like a revamp of the job. It's something that won't came until 5.0 but I can still hope !

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Originally Posted by echo78

I see more people upset that MNK just spent 2 years being unquestionably worse then DRG/NIN and now SAM will actually be a good version of HW MNK while SB MNK is projected to be the worst melee DPS for another expansion. Most of the good MNK's I've talked to plan on changing from MNK if the current tooltips don't change next week.

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Yeah, this is basically my beef.

Well, it's finally getting raid utility in the form of Brotherhood which is what a lot of people had been asking for. Honestly if you enjoy the job that much like I do, just play it, especially if you don't take "the meta" that seriously anyway. Or re-roll if you're not happy. The main issue with Monk for a lot of people is the lack of raid utility besides mantra, and we finally got it, while Samurai has become the new "selfish" dps. For all we know, that much dps might not still be enough anyway upon release. We'll have to wait and see. From what I saw though base on this thread, the monk community just seems ungrateful. I know the other new abilities don't seem exciting, but it seems like they're meant to be situational just like the Ninja ones in 3.x. Riddle of Earth seems good for mitigating unavoidable damage and riddle of wind seems good for PVP. I'm not trying to defend the changes entirely but my point is, monk got the one thing they desperately needed in HW, and that's utility. DRGs, BRDs, and SCHs to name a few will synergize well with MNKs with the new changes, and we just need to wait and see how it plays out.

Edit: I will say that I don't agree with some of the nerfs either. Forbidden Charka seems over-nerf and the potency nerfs in our rotation seems pointless as well. Tornado Kick also could use as well.

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Originally Posted by Chi_Hoshi

Snip.

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Just a quick note, telling people to stop playing a job they love because the changes screwed them up is A) Counter-productive, and B) Obviously not what SE wants given the reason for the removal of casts for Mch and Brd being the severe drop of class usage.

I don't care too much about meta, but bad design is bad design. No one is complaining about Brotherhood (Only that it's too weak, really). It's everything else.

Yes, we got raid utility...but it's underpowered, honestly not that good, and still not a reason to bring monks to stuff.

Also nerfs.

Also what we desperately needed in HW was offensive utility and raid synergy, and we got a half-hearted taste of the former and none of the latter.
(We needed an aggro dump too and we got that, but so did everyone so I'm not counting that.)

As it stands, Brotherhood is underwhelming and we still have no actual synergy with the rest of whatever group we happen to be in. We're still the selfish dps, but with none of the numbers that come with that position (sam does, and also provides slashing debuff afaik, so there's synergy with all three tanks and nin), and consequently if the patch notes don't reveal anything drastic we're going to stay the odd class out of the melee.

Riddle of Earth isn't good for mitigating much, imo, since in order to trigger the defense boost you have to take damage. That's not going to benefit you unless it's multiple hits in a row...and if you're in a position where that's happening, +20% defense is probably not going to help you very much since nine times out of ten that means a boss is chewing on your face.

Like KingFrost just said, bad design is bad design. That's the issue here.

Edit: And just so you know, I do enjoy the job like you do. That's why I'm so unhappy about this.

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

Just a quick note, telling people to stop playing a job they love because the changes screwed them up is A) Counter-productive, and B) Obviously not what SE wants given the reason for the removal of casts for Mch and Brd being the severe drop of class usage.

I don't care too much about meta, but bad design is bad design. No one is complaining about Brotherhood (Only that it's too weak, really). It's everything else.

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What I meant to say is do whatever makes you happy. I know some people just don't like the new skills and that having higher dps is really important to them but I can't speak for everyone.

Like I said, we need to wait until 4.0 to see how everything plays out at this point, though I get that feedback is important and SE could actually be listening to us, but waiting for the patch notes and playing it for ourselves is the only way to be certain.

You might be right about Brotherhood but remember that it does last longer (15s) than ninja's trick attack (10s). Arcian has a good point about Riddle of Earth as well.