Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them ,and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

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Here is the thing though about you telling me "just go and make your farm party in PF" - I can say the same to anyone who wants to learn the fight: "just go and make your learning party inf PF"

PF is offering the option to form the party that suits our needs for both of us. And you're obviously fine with that.
DF, on the other hand is not offering that option for both of us - which is what I'd like to see. Currently DF is only benefitting those who are okay with most likely only seeing the first phase of a fight. Anyone else cant use the DF, making a tool thats supposed to make our game-experience better and easier, completly useless.
DF should be for everyone, right? At least thats what you guys seem to say - but at the same time you're making DF only for first timers who dont care how far they'll get in the fight.

I'm of the opinion that both sides - newbies and vets - should be able to use both tools - DF and PF - at their convenience. Currently you guys agree that its fine that both sides are using the PF in the way that suits them (as in: making learning and no-bonus-farm-parties). Why is asking for that in DF such a horrible thing?
Why does DF has to be a place for everyone who is to lazy to make a learning party? Why is it okay for farmers to exclude themself in PF, but not in DF? Why can I use both tools when I want to see/learn the fight - but am limited to the more inconvenient one as soon as I want to farm? When it didnt has to be that way!

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.

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Raid finder was great. Yoshi said it was a big contributing factor in the clear rates of creator savage (especially 9s and 10s) and hugely popular for Sophia. The highest clears of any extreme primal "in patch"

I cleared Zurvan and even farmed a few wins Zurvan in raid finder and had better success than most farm parties.. 7 of the 10 totems I got for my blm staff were raid finder farms. Maybe because people weren't relying on the 5th dps to carry them. Although Zurvan queues could take a while to fill sometimes. Because most people wanted to solo tank.

But most people that used raid finder for Sophia found farm queues were usually.less than 5 minutes. As read in this thread and several others. That's a good indication of how popular it was..

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Here is the thing though about you telling me "just go and make your farm party in PF" - I can say the same to anyone who wants to learn the fight: "just go and make your learning party inf PF"

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But the roles are just simply reversed now is what Im saying Im guessing no one has touched on the fact that when you qued for the havent cleared yet in rf. You could pretty much expect to not even get one person to join the party as a matter of fact I made a post about it, and their where actually several threads about it. So because of this you could pretty much say raid finder was only for maybe learning the very first week the content came out and after that the already cleared filter was much more used than the havent yet cleared. So this pretty much made rf only for those whom have already cleared the content only, I highly doubt that anyone was getting any ques in the looking for practice portion of the raid finder prior to SE making this change to df.

So Rf was exclusively for farmers only, even tho I know pf works as far as learning content and getting a clear it to is still exclusively for farmers. 90 percent of the parties at any given time in pf are farm parties and go like this, no all mechanics, no the fight, no bonus, if you are bad you will get kicked, bring good dps etc which is fine. So if 90 percent of something is like this you have to also say that its pretty much catered to those whom make these type of parties. I dont see how any new person are returning player could look at even the party finder and be like wow you know what this feature is so welcoming to all players because it simply isnt if we being honest about it.

So now with 2 months left two small months its in duty finder which actually gives everyone in the game access to this content everybody it gives access to. (Prior to this rf havent cleared yet you can x that off the list not gona get a que there. Party finder oh no learning parties on here right now all farms and no bonus parties I cant join a farm yet havent cleared it. )The only option a new player had was to make a learning party and that was it while farmers, and people whom have cleared multiple times have had a strong hold on this content as soon as rf came out and as soon as pf came out.

So now that literally everyone is on the same playing field of access now its a problem with only two months left until the next expansion, things will go right back to as they where before as soon as the new primal comes out. If you dont think that pf and rf overwhelming was in the favor of those whom have already cleared the content then Id challenge you to look at ur pf and to see how many no bonus parties u see compared to learning parties. So with two months left to do when you know this wont happen with brand new storm blood content even if putting in df doesnt benefit everyone, hasnt the features like rf and pf overwhelming benefited them more than those who hadnt cleared content already?


@Dualgunner
Id beg the differ on that one because I have stated all of my arr primals where cleared viva duty finder my bis and ravana was cleared in duty finder many people have stated they have gotten many clears in duty finder. I think the difference is simply this those whom que in duty finder dont expect a clear, if they que but the opportunity to clear. Farmers just simply want for sure clears which is perfectly fine, but just like someone who hasnt even touch the content has to jump leaps and bounds to get their learning parties to result in something that works. Its simply welcome to the club at this point, most of the time farmers wernt gona que for the havent cleared section either. So its no different duty finder ques will be filled a lot faster than tryin to que in rf when u havent cleared the content yet.

Except it doesn't, payton. Now that the queues have no filter, the vets aren't saying "Oh well I'll just queue anyway" they're saying "Okay whatever, I'm just gonna stick with PF farm parties."

DF will be as dead as ever and veteran players will still only queue in DF if they *want* to help teach people. Removing the aforementioned duties from RF has helped nobody, and inconvenienced a few.

I really don't know how many times, or how many different ways I can say:

-- Moving these to Duty Finder did not give them "open access" for "everyone." They were all just as accessible when they were in Raid Finder. Moving them didn't change that.
-- Just because you think that you can't queue in Raid Finder as a Duty Incomplete (guess what, you can), does not in any way exclude you from the content. Don't have a clear? Need one? Want to learn the fight? Queue just isn't wanting to pop? Make a PF for it. With the cross-server Party Finder, it is easier than ever to get people to join and help out. Take some initiative and stop saying that Raid Finder's filtering options prevent you from doing the content. The only thing prevent people from doing the content is apparently their inability to create PFs, and try to get a full party to help them. Which is not that hard.

Unless you are making learning PFs at weird/inactive times on your data center, there will be no difficulty getting people to join. I got my BisEx and RavEx clears back before cross-server Party Finder was a thing (and back when you actually had to do mechanics, and could not just cheese the hell out of the fights). Party took maybe 30 minutes to fill. I received the rest of my clears mostly after the implementation of the cross-server PF. Parties took even less time to fill then.

New people are not being forced to jump through hoops to get their clears. They are just being asked to (and expected to) clear the content just like those who have already cleared it did. And to stop asking for free carries. Stop asking for special treatment. If these "veterans" can clear the content with them in Raid Finder/with filters, so can you.

Even before the implementation of Raid Finder, there were still PFs stating: "Farm party. No bonus. Know entire fight. Know all mechanics, etc.". This is not something new that popped up with the advent of RF. 90% of parties in PF are not farm only; some days there's more learning parties up, and some days there are more farm parties up. Not seeing a learning party for [insert content here] doesn't prevent anyone from making their own PF for it.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Id beg the differ on that one because I have stated all of my arr primals where cleared viva duty finder my bis and ravana was cleared in duty finder many people have stated they have gotten many clears in duty finder. I think the difference is simply this those whom que in duty finder dont expect a clear, if they que but the opportunity to clear. Farmers just simply want for sure clears which is perfectly fine, but just like someone who hasnt even touch the content has to jump leaps and bounds to get their learning parties to result in something that works. Its simply welcome to the club at this point, most of the time farmers wernt gona que for the havent cleared section either. So its no different duty finder ques will be filled a lot faster than tryin to que in rf when u havent cleared the content yet.

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Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids. The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

In my opinion the former is still better, since new players can make PF for those easier ex/savage contents stating that they have first time bonuses. If I'm farming poetics/lore I'd gladly join a PF for helping someone clear a1s, ravana, or the easier lv 50 ex trials (even synced garuda, ifrit, mog are still easy enough).

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids.

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I actually got my Bis and Rav clears back when the content was still difficult, when you could not cheese the mechanics like you can now. I was honestly shocked when I decided to actively farm RavEx for his bird at how ridiculously cheesed the fight could be, and how much of it was skipped. I wasn't at my current ilvl (266) for those clears. Same for the ARR extremes. I cleared all of those at level 50-52 before I even entered Ishgard. It was like: cleared the Hard Modes, now let's clear the Extremes. Did I farm them at current ilvl? Some of them. But some of them I also did, at most, ilvl 110-115. I maybe cleared Ramuh and Shiva in Ironworks, but I know I didn't clear the others with much higher level gear than their minimums (because for the longest time I wore the i90 AF gear because I loved the look; after that I wore the i110 Kirumu set because dat coat.)

My clears were split between making/joining clear PFs and just straight up queuing in DF for them. I know Titan Ex I had to turn to PF for that. But I farmed for Levi's and Shiva's ponies some days just queuing directly into them. I'd just do other stuff while I waited for the queue to pop. I know that the times are different now, but what I'm trying to say is: if I can do it, so can the others. And I am no hardcore raider.

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The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

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That's the way the content was designed though. It was not designed for people to go in blind, wipe maybe once or twice, and then clear. It was not made for people to just randomly queue into them like they would Expert Roulette, and clear with no communication whatsoever. Even groups for Creator Savage (barring those insane World First groups, but the more common statics that only Raid a couple hours a night, 2-3 days a week) are still working on progression for some of the later tiers. Some groups I know took months to clear A9S and A10S; even longer for A11S. But this doesn't mean the content excludes new people. They are more than capable of either forming their own learning PF for just whoever feels up to it that day, or for even forming their own static.

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If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

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I wouldn't say the first part of this is necessarily true. I still see clear parties for BisEx or A9S or even super old ones like A4S. For a while, PFs for A4S clears => Glamour/Mount Farms were pretty common. And this was semi-recently on my data center. They may not be as common as the "A11S speed clears, 2-point strat" or "Zurvan Ex farm; no bonus, skip soar or disband" groups, but they aren't completely non-existent.

I like joining clear parties some days. Especially if it's something I don't have a clear for. If people made PFs to clear Midas Savage or Gordias Savage or even Second Coil Savage, I would join them. Sure my experience wouldn't be the same as clearing them during their tier, but I could still experience the fight nonetheless. Like-minded people are out there, but you gotta take the initiative to find them, and not just expect them to pop up for you.

I would expect farm parties to use the Duty Complete filter (regardless of where it is implemented, be it RF, DF, or PF). After all, their goal is to farm. They aren't looking to teach. So people really can't--and shouldn't--fault them for that. Just like the clear/learning parties. People shouldn't join them and expect a one-pull clear, and for the party to turn into some fast-paced farm group. They should expect wipes, and they should be ready to teach.

Filters or no filters, neither of those groups are going to change when it comes to goals. And I don't think taking away filters will increase or decrease the amount of clears achieved. If people are that determined to clear something, they will certainly find a way. The filters are there more so for convenience so people can be like "I feel like teaching today; let's roll Duty Incomplete and have some fun" or "I really just want to farm [content] today; I don't feel up for teaching people how to clear it, so I'm going to roll Duty Complete."


EDIT/ADDITION: Since I have reached my posting limit today (seriously, can this not be a thing... it's like I have to pick and choose what to respond to... but anyways), thanks for the clarification aleph_null. :3 I wasn't trying to sound rude or abrasive or confrontational. Whether your comment was directed at me or not, I just responded with my opinion on things. Guess I shouldn't have assumed it was just because it was posted after mine. ^^;;;

@bswpayton: I give up. I don't know how to get you to understand that you still had access to content in the Raid Finder, regardless of whether or not you were "late" to the content. If you couldn't get the Incomplete queue to pop, you still had Party Finder to help you get a group together of like-minded individuals that want to learn the fight, whether it be with the help of guides/veterans or just straight up blind. If you did not have the PF option, and Ex primals could only be entered via the Raid Finder, then yeah, maybe you would have run into some issues. Or maybe, people like you who are not clearing the content at zero-hour, would have faster queues, because that would be the only avenue for the duties. As it is now, though, that is not the case. The option was always there: RF or PF. Like others have said, back when Ex primals were only in DF, some of them had extremely long queues, and some never popped at all (Thordan Ex), similar to the situation now. What did those people probably do? They probably turned to Party Finder at that point, looking for help/people. If they decided to just whine and pout and not do anything to rectify their situation, then that's on them. Not others, not the system.

I don't care about if the primals are in Raid Finder or Duty Finder or if they make some Special Shiny Ex Primal Finder for it. Same for Savage. But if I want to make a farm, and guarantee to filter out bonuses from my farm because I don't feel like wiping for 60 minutes with no clears, or I don't feel like teaching that day and just want to get my loot, then I think I should have the option to do so. And that's not discriminatory, or exclusionary. The same would go for clear/learning groups if they wanted to just get people together that haven't cleared the content at all, jumping in completely blind and ready for any surprises. I've met people like that before. And it applies to those learning parties that have veterans join and expect a one-hit-KO for SephEx and then throw a fit when that doesn't happen, and they're reminded that it was a LEARNING party. Filter out vets, include only new people. It can go both ways.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

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That's exactly whats happening. In RF, if you haven't cleared, the learning queues never pop(or take hours). How are people supposed to learn if they can't even get into the content?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I really don\\'t know how many times, .

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We are just repeating ourselves Ive mention that I myself have used pf to clear sep, thordan, Sophia, have filled up zur parties as well. But that was my only option period, rf was not for anyone late to content. This is what I\\'ve been saying so not only did farmers have raid finder but also had ninty percent of the pf parties as well. I have never seen more learning parties than farm parties in the history of playing this game. So again the probality of someone getting in a trail viva duty finder is higher than , getting in through raid finder as uncleared.

Many threads have complained about rf this is the first one I've ever seen complaining about duty finder. So like I said the roles have shifted for those whom simply want to just have access the have more access now and farmers aren\\'t as in control just for two mere months I don\\'t see how that\\'s a problem. The trend will end as soon as storm blood hits the same people who are complaining here will be the same ones advocating for new players to just simply run the content unsync and move on to the hw Primals. Thats all I heard from these forums was to get over it the content is old move on to this new stuff. So I will repeat whats been said to me the content is old and irrelevant so why get upset about it new stuffs on the way