What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Tbh the most memorable aspects of Golbez for me are when he is able to shrug off Meteo from Tellah, and then Bolt 3 Cecil down a flight of stairs.

He caused the death of your key mage for the mid game, and then follows it up with the post Calcabrina battle where he has his Shadow Dragon slowly devour your party after he used Holding Gas to immobilize them.

True to his worry over the village of the Summoners, Rydia shows up, frees Cecil( and possibly Jump exploits Kain), and proceeds to kick his and his dragon's ass.

And it's a total victory. He pretty much dies. The only thing left of him is his gauntleted hand. Which proceeds to crawl along the ground and take the Crystal of Darkness anyway, because he's been fully brainjacked by Zemus, and is merely a puppet. After that he never directly engages the party again, winning the next Crystal of Darkness by brainjacking Kain.

The way I see it, they are trying to do something FFXIV original with Golbez as an imposing visual callback. I can admit my nostalgia is wanting it to be good, and it's blunting my cynicism, but I am totally interested in the vague line about, "The Blessed Damned opening the Gate."

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

As I said above, seems FFXIV only panders to those interested in the superficial. Personally, I'd prefer if they borrowed more from the narrative of the games they're referencing. I'm weary of yet more "Oh, look! Here's Kefka, isn't he great?!" with no substance. It's lazy, trite and getting real fucking old.

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It's an mmo, it literally runs on cameos. All mmos do. FF may be Square's IP but outside of Matsuno, I don't see any creators of the other series coming in and providing whole stories.

I went through the MSQ roulette for the first time in almost a year. And the change to the "maggie" cutscene made me realise this, which I assume other people here also noticed.

No idea if it's Ishikawa's fault, but the fact is ever since she became the lead writer, it has become a very recurring thing. Cutscenes have been forcing very strong emotional reactions out of the player character way too often. It makes sense for Wedge to be very attached to it, it's part of his personality to see machines as living things. But it's really too much to force the player character to have this bizarre mourning gesture to a freaking magitek armor. How long until we start shedding tears if we see a flower wither in a future cutscene? Jesus christ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I went through the MSQ roulette for the first time in almost a year. And the change to the "maggie" cutscene made me realise this, which I assume other people here also noticed.

No idea if it's Ishikawa's fault, but the fact is ever since she became the lead writer, it has become a very recurring thing. Cutscenes have been forcing very strong emotional reactions out of the player character way too often. It makes sense for Wedge to be very attached to it, it's part of his personality to see machines as living things. But it's really too much to force the player character to have this bizarre mourning gesture to a freaking magitek armor. How long until we start shedding tears if we see a flower wither in a future cutscene? Jesus christ.

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I feel the same way, especially with Urianger's part on EW. He has a whole moon conversation with you, and then we have another CS with the same litany about a character who died in ARR. That scene should have been written above "Please cry here"

So the Hermes short story came… and went. A case of “oh, that happened”.

It doesn’t add much in all honesty. It also felt much shorter/easier to digest than the Venat short story, where every other sentence was an attempt to see how many complimentary adjectives and evocative metaphors could be crammed into a single sentence to describe her, each leaving a cloying aftertaste. It’s written from a POV once more, doesn’t really give me much dialogue to do any “showing” part and just tells me how Hermes reacted to some of his sympathetic colleagues attempts to listen to him, his reactions being described in part as “clawing” (I note a difference with the FR version is that it states he’d be forgiven by his colleagues in spite of his lashing out; it also doesn’t try contrast the view of man as the star’s lifeblood and their capacity as nurturer, but rather simply gives this as the reason for mostly settling disputes verbally).

I’ve long thought part of the problem with him is he assumes the worst of his fellow man, and I can’t say this does much to dispel that view. His colleagues seem rather caring, even if they can’t fully grasp what his issue is. Having seen the other stars and alternatives, neither can I, truth be told.

If this story was meant to elicit sympathy for mankind’s first mass murderer, well… it didn’t. Part of the story made me think he hijacked Venat’s brain later on, what with his belief of his fellow man’s inability to deal with the “answer” he got (which she claimed was his own inability but then decided to apply to her entire people)… so nice of the pair of them to collectively decide this for their entire species. The commentary about him perceiving neither kindness nor benevolence in the WoL, just strength, fortifying his resolve, was also something. Perhaps an attempted parallel with their ancient mentor and her words after her trial (yeah, she says justice, whatever.)

I did find the tidbit about Euanthe and some other colleagues tutoring him on how to design the concept’s appearance amusing, at least. For someone so critical of other ancients, he certainly worked those Meteia hard. For all we’re told about how much he “cares” about his creations, he still seemed content to use them as mere fodder to get his precious answers and then condemn them, all of mankind, and other worlds, to doom. While I consider her to mostly dwell in the realm of a glorified, sentient AI (who knows, he never let her be properly tested through the usual process), he did seem to be projecting his own sense of guilt and inability to cope with it onto his entire civilisation.

The comments on the dynamis world with a will of its own is somewhat intriguing. I’m of the view you could write something like this with or without dynamis, but in any case the nature of that world is something they could tap into in the future. The way the story remarks on the Meteia being vulnerable to dynamis is a point I am curious to see if they’ll ever raise with the sundered, as they are, likewise, vulnerable to it, albeit probably less so due to being 8x rejoined for the Source (more if you’re certain people.)

Another point where FR differs a bit is it mentions that the intense feelings of humans (ancients) could sometimes influence dynamis, so it wasn’t just him, per se. Overall, it has a slightly less dour tone to it about his fellow man. No axe to grind here, none at all. Anyway, he resigned himself to making Etheirys a more flourishing star, according to it – truly, what an awful fate. Oh and it doesn’t mince words about the sundering ending his life. I guess the sundered should take comfort when confronting what he did at the end that he meant really well… as should his own people. Totally not a cosmic scale temper tantrum. Surprised Ishikawa didn’t fit in a “first step for mankind… Oh, no, just kidding… unless…?” in there. I wonder sometimes if they forgot to delete the Elpis sidequests from the game before pushing… whatever this all was.

I was expecting worse, really, as I thought Ishikawa’s desire to defend her OC could’ve morphed into full-fledged apologetics for him through once more demonising his society. At worst, it’s just his navel-gazing, self-absorbed resentment of his people, exacerbated by his own hang ups.

I have to say, I side-glanced at some of the strange takeaways people got from the story (again, asserting as somehow self-evident that the ancients lacked anything like “therapy”... plus I guess it's being forgotten that Amon had a pretty dismal view of sundered man, too... and spurned any answer he was being given), but in and of itself? It’s a little cringeworthy but less bad than expected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I went through the MSQ roulette for the first time in almost a year. And the change to the "maggie" cutscene made me realise this, which I assume other people here also noticed.

No idea if it's Ishikawa's fault, but the fact is ever since she became the lead writer, it has become a very recurring thing. Cutscenes have been forcing very strong emotional reactions out of the player character way too often. It makes sense for Wedge to be very attached to it, it's part of his personality to see machines as living things. But it's really too much to force the player character to have this bizarre mourning gesture to a freaking magitek armor. How long until we start shedding tears if we see a flower wither in a future cutscene? Jesus christ.

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I suspect it was changed because all the other cutscenes related to it were removed. The extended reaction is probably to give players going through it for the first time a chance to realize that it's the magitek armour from the story.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I went through the MSQ roulette for the first time in almost a year. And the change to the "maggie" cutscene made me realise this, which I assume other people here also noticed.

No idea if it's Ishikawa's fault, but the fact is ever since she became the lead writer, it has become a very recurring thing. Cutscenes have been forcing very strong emotional reactions out of the player character way too often. It makes sense for Wedge to be very attached to it, it's part of his personality to see machines as living things. But it's really too much to force the player character to have this bizarre mourning gesture to a freaking magitek armor. How long until we start shedding tears if we see a flower wither in a future cutscene? Jesus christ.

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ha! I'm the opposite. I watched that again recently and loved it! I care more about that magitek armor than most of the sentient npcs lol

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Originally Posted by Lauront

So the Hermes short story came…

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Well said. I was rather disappointed in the side of the story talking about Meteion. It talked for days about her aesthetic, but never once mentioned nary a sliver about how he manipulated Dynamis to make her.

The Final Fantasy XIV fanbase and gatekeeping depression while using it as a headcanon excuse for their poor persecuted sadboi and calling you ableist if you call it out, name a more iconic duo!

… okay, so we have the FFXIV fanbase and crying about Sundered genocide while excusing Ancient genocide …
… the FFXIV fanbase and being literally unable to comprehend why people love the shameless villains without an excuse …
… the FFXIV fanbase and unironically treating Hermes like he Lived In A Society, Bottom Text, and was the first step for Gotham City …
… the FFXIV fanbase and saying you didn't watch the cutscenes or read the dialogue …
… the FFXIV fanbase and saying you watched the cutscenes and read the dialogue too seriously and are nitpicking …
… the FFXIV fanbase and saying That Would Have Been Predictable, Thank God You Aren't The Writer …
… the FFXIV fanbase and saying you need to have a very high IQ and read Nietzsche / Utopia / have depression / a deep understanding of buddhism / have been a frontline first responder during the worst of the covid pandemic to have a chance at enjoying the deep themes of FINAL FANTASY FOURTEEN ONLINE: ENDWALKER: SIX POINT OH …

All right, so maybe it's becoming a bit of a crowded competition.

At first, I thought the short story was mid tbf, much less eye-roll-inducing than I was expecting Re: Hermes being THE ONLY ANCIENT WHO FEELS AND IS RELATABLE AND HUMAN!!!!!! But wow, do Twitter and Reddit ever have a way of ruining things for everyone with a satisfyingly crenelated diencephalon.

Of course, I should add the disclaimer that I read this story in French. As Lauront said, comparing the two, it is rather obvious a lot of the words used and the way sentences come across result in an overall less hostile/antagonistic towards his society Hermes. Like, his little "Tell yourself what you need to believe"? It isn't there at all. He blames himself for "asking himself so many absurd questions". No accusation of "utilitarian logic", simply that the argument that she could be recreated was hard to refute. No "he internalized the lie", merely "He resigned himself to his fate: accepting his peers' forgiveness" (oh no how terrible lmao). Honestly? I would say localisation is being really biased here – whichever of the two deviates most from the original Japanese author's intent, I cannot say, but I will merely say the past occurrences haven't been in EN's favor when it comes to sticking to JP.
(btw, SEAL CLAP @ the EN slipping in yet another reference to Answers in the last line lmao.)

And so this will go down as yet another instance of the Ancient society being so mean and conformist and callous towards any life that wasn't theirs, while Hermes was a hero for daring to think different and selectively mourning the murderwolves without paying attention to the okyupetes they slain being the only one who cared. He's so tortured. Nobody understands him! They all offer him PLATITUDES! He's the nail that sticks out until they hammer him to become another brick in the wall!(*) He OBVIOUSLY had DEPRESSION and this was a completely foreign concept to Ancients who, as can be seen right here, NEVER tried to offer any help, and also they definitely didn't have sort of therapy or mental healthcare because idk that's just the vibes I get!!! Only my WoL understands him…

Never mind that all of this is his own point of view. Honestly this was the thing I was most afraid of when it came to the inevitable Hermes short story we would get. I wish this had been like the Watcher's short story at least: about Venat, but pointedly not from her own PoV – though from the PoV of someone who agreed with her, at least it was a third party… somewhat. But ultimately, just like I could dismiss the first story's embarrassing gushing over Venat as it being from the Watcher's PoV and thus perfectly in-character for GigaSimpeus of Anamnesis Anyder, I am going to dismiss this one as being from the PoV of the Ancient world's most conceited edgelord who, as we know from the MSQ, never actually talked much to any human being around him outside of a professional context. All I see in this story is a man who thinks himself superior to his SHEEPLE peers and rebukes any and all attempt to be nice to him and help him – because he doesn't want help. He's a man on a mission, and that mission is showing them all. Also appreciate that it acknowledges his hypocrisy in siccing his precious animals on the party.

If I were to criticise the structure of the short story itself, though, it's that it's a little all over the place. First Ktisis, then Meteion's conception, then the death of one of her sisters (nice confirmation of Ancients being able to feel intense emotions btw, FR), then a fast-forward through his life after Ktisis. It feels more like a summary of his character – from his PoV – than an actual short story. I would have rather liked a vignette of one or two better-defined moments of his life. Particularly, I wanted to know more about his actual tenure as Fandaniel, preferably from the PoV of a fellow Convocation member who knew him from his time as Elpis director, like Loghrif, Mitron, Halmarut or Lahabrea.

Also I want to address the counter-argument of "SEE? HE ACTUALLY PEER-REVIEWED METEION, YOU (WRONG) ANCIENT LOVING MEANIES!". The text only ever mentions his colleagues helping him with conceiving Meteion's appearance. There is no evidence here any of them knew of Meteion's inner workings. In fact, the sole evidence comes from the MSQ, and it points to the contrary: Timaeus, a fellow ornithologist who talks way too much, has no idea how Meteion was made, and is surprised when we tell him about Dynamis, which he hasn't heard of "for centuries". Then, of course, Hythlodaeus makes it clear the concept was never submitted to the Bureau, which, if anything, would be their equivalent of peer reviewing – and he would have rejected it (though he's saying this in a context that is rather incriminating in the first place, which most likely biases him).
Honestly I question if the people who think what we see in this story is "peer review" have ever worked in a clinical research department. This isn't peer review, this is chatting with the data manager during lunch break.

Oh, and depression. Again, I will remind everyone that Ishikawa has never come out and said she intended him to have clinical depression. She doesn't have to, no, but given how controversial the character is (and she knew he would be), I am going to take her silence on the issue as her intending us to take Hermes at face value: an emotional man, yes, but one with no low self-esteem, negative cognitive bias, lack of energy to get out of bed or delusions of inadequacy or guilt. It doesn't look to me like we are meant to assume he is anything but rational, if impulsive (classic Leo!). I would even say that the insistence on his character suffering from clinical depression seems like an attempt to excuse him and make him more sympathetic than he actually is.
I'll be frank, this depression discourse around Hermes and the way his fanpersons dismiss criticism by gatekeeping a rather common mental illness with very varied clinical manifestations is what drove me off Ascian/Ancient Twitter for good immediately after Endwalker released. The insufferable self-righteousness of these people taking their headcanon of Hermes for granted and thinking their own diagnosed illness makes them the authority on how bad a person you must be for disliking his character and the way he was written into the story instantly alienated me from a crowd I used to enjoy sharing a fandom with.
The funny thing is, I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and treated for it (in fact, it was related to how unfit my too-empathetic self was for the job I was doing. Amusing, isn't it?). So have a fair number of people I know with a significant dislike of Hermes (and Endwalker as a whole). And while I personally do not feel too strongly about Hermes himself, mostly about how his character is used to obviously demean Ancients, some of these people are outright offended by the presumed portrayal of a mentally ill man as unstable, abusive and violent, before graduating to omnicidal out of sheer spite.
So please. Enough about ascertaining Hermes suffers from depression. Not only is it only an interpretation of the character – one that is valid IMO, but that is unfortunately too often conveniently used to cast him in a sympathetic light and throw an entire people under the bus – but your personal experience of depression is not everyone's, and you are acting as callously towards other patients as you claim detractors do. This inane discourse makes me feel like I need to take a shower… and my Effexor.




(*) I am incredibly sorry for making you picture Hermes simps nodding at this while pretentiously listening to Pink Floyd and going SO TRUE BESTIE he's just like me fr fr

God I just realised how much I used to adore Answers as a theme for the entire saga, until the Elpis arc in Endwalker came and the song was since completely bastardized. No doubt if they bothered to preserve and follow the original ideas stemming behind the creation of the song it would be way more interesting than how they decided to interpret it. Suffice to say I really don't care for the song anymore.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

ha! I'm the opposite. I watched that again recently and loved it! I care more about that magitek armor than most of the sentient npcs lol

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That's fine. I'm not saying no one would feel that way. I just think it's jarring they've been more aggressively forcing these reactions from our character when they constantly try to say our WoL is our avatar. Ishikawa's XIV constantly makes me feel like the character I'm controlling is less of an avatar than Link from Legend of Zelda, because they're responding to things pretty much on their own even when I'm allowed to pick dialogue answers...

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Originally Posted by Teraq

another excellent post

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Great summary about what is so laughably cringeworthy about interactions on Twitter and this presumption that the man is "mentally ill" coupled with accusations of "ableism" when you point out he's still not justified, as a result, in wiping his people out (if we wanted to play such a game, imagine how much more trenchantly you could justify some of our major villains thanks to the characteristics of some sundered societies), just because he read their every kind act as some perceived slight. And yes, I've seen the peer review comment come up a bit, and it's baffling to me. If anything, he did everything he could to evade submitting her through their usual processes. I think the main reason it wasn't picked up on as dangerous is that dynamis was an obscure area of knowledge with so few limited practical applications in their own world, that his fellow researchers probably saw it as a harmless curiosity.

fr fr Hydaelyns a better bestie fr fr :p

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Originally Posted by Teraq

truly a wonderful post

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thanks for that, that was a great read lol

I think part of the reason we ended with andsinger (or as I call it depression incarnate) is Hermes put a too much of himself into Meteion. They both ended up at "life sucks so I should just kill everything"

I hope Golbez devours Krile and that we get some new Faces with 7.0

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

I hope Golbez devours Krile and that we get some new Faces with 7.0

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Likewise. We don't need the latest attempt of modern media to reincarnate Hermoine Granger to join the party, certainly not in Lalafell form.

Given the utterly boring state of the Source at present it is in the best interest of the game to let whatever Golbez is planning succeed. There has to be more to the plot than "oh no Golbez is stealing a Dragon's aether" because at this point no amount of feels for Vrtra is going to be able to keep my attention unless the drama and the stakes ramp up.

We have a world lacking in so many fantasy elements that the only way to get more of them is to visit different ones or better yet, cause some form of a rejoining to forcefully inject them into the Source, combined with a cast whose personalities are as noteworthy as their individual motivations. Which is to say, not quite there. It doesn't help much either when some sectors of the playerbase are unwilling to entertain the thought of the protagonist faction enduring losses or even having bickering amongst party members because "it distracts from the action" as if such interactions weren't integral to making party members more like people in most other games.

Oh, but then we'd be hit with "FFXIV isn't like other games!" Indeed, as I don't think any other game would have stuffed the party full of scholar types and effectively paused or reversed character development for an entire expansion, on top of what I think was the worst way time travel has ever been handled. The MSQ right now is average at best, with only time telling whether it sinks below that or rises above with the introduction of the remaining future cast and revealing something else going on in the background. Side content this expansion is hit or miss, we've lost our trial series questline, lost the continuation of Bozja/Ivalice's story, Myths of the Realm so far hasn't been impressive in any factor other than how easy of an alliance raid it is, with Pandaemonium being my favorite content as the writing there is the strongest in Endwalker.

I suppose we'll have to wait for December or January for 6.3, wherein we'll likely fell Cagnazzo and Rubicante...and see the other gods that have done nothing for the past 12k years. Can't say I expect Criterion/Variant Dungeons to have that good a story, what with Nanamo starring in it. This expansion's Deep Dungeon...well it could've been hidden under the face on the Moon, except that was apparently the Bunker made by the Loporrits, unlikely for it to be in Corvos (unless they decide they want to exclude the area from being fleshed out in a potential Ilsabardian expansion), and goodness help us if they make the mistake of tying it to the tackiness of Sharlayan. An Ancients themed Deep Dungeon set in Elpis could work, but other than that I can't say I'm all too enthusiastic about it.

I just wish this game would return to form already so that I can forget that Endwalker ever happened.

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.
Because it's incredibly hard to see any thumbnails that don't have people who need the views to make a living as creators with these predictable dramatic expressions in their thumbnails and yellow letters saying "BEST STORY EVER MADE" etc.

There is the saying "be the change you want to make" but even if I could make videos myself I'm not well articulated at all. As can be seen in any of my posts in the forum.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.

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YouTube seems to be lacking in any kind of in-depth story analysis of Endwalker or FFXIV in general, positive or negative. It's all about story reactions with fake crying and exagerated marketable faces, or superlative adjectives but nobody to try and take it to the next level. Isn't it weird? Where is it? Even dumb shonen manga I follow get their videos essays.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.
Because it's incredibly hard to see any thumbnails that don't have people who need the views to make a living as creators with these predictable dramatic expressions in their thumbnails and yellow letters saying "BEST STORY EVER MADE" etc.

There is the saying "be the change you want to make" but even if I could make videos myself I'm not well articulated at all. As can be seen in any of my posts in the forum.

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I would simply prefer if the feedback we posted here was taken into consideration without the need for such grand overtures to be necessary to get the feedback through to the dev team about what didn't work for Endwalker. Then again, the stuff we've asked for is sometimes as basic as "don't fill the cast with the same type of character" or "don't overuse time travel" that they did anyway so whether or not they'd be even open to it after making those sort of decisions is another thing entirely.

With not much story content to look forward to until December/January, can't say that I'm feeling all that invested into FFXIV. Especially with the stuff that's set to release soon and throughout the remainder of EW's patches.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.
Because it's incredibly hard to see any thumbnails that don't have people who need the views to make a living as creators with these predictable dramatic expressions in their thumbnails and yellow letters saying "BEST STORY EVER MADE" etc.

There is the saying "be the change you want to make" but even if I could make videos myself I'm not well articulated at all. As can be seen in any of my posts in the forum.

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Hah. I appreciate the kind words! I actually considered it a few years back but my encounters with some of the more unhinged members of this community made me not want to put anything out there that would make me easy to identify in the real world.

I usually go by a different name in each online community that I'm a part of so I won't rule out possibly doing it for another game that takes its worldbuilding more seriously in the future...provided any of the upcoming MMO's manage to live up to their lofty promises and expectations.

I think FFXIV has essentially just shifted its target audience and genre altogether at this point which is highly unfortunate. It markets itself as a 'story driven' experience but it really isn't that at all - the amount of actual story we get in each content patch is often based around retconning things established earlier on, showcasing the same tiresome characters that we've been stuck with for a decade already and slowly eliminating anything with depth or grit to it such as piracy, political intrigue, religious zealotry, knowledge hoarding, warfare and so on.

I'll be continuing to provide feedback here on the forum at the very least but I'd be lying if I said most of my attention has already strayed to other games. I'm mostly just curious to see if the development team will course correct and throw a bone to those of us who didn't want the Ancients and Garleans to effectively be rendered obsolete. A vain hope, maybe, though in all honesty if it wasn't for the Garleans and Ascians I would never never have bothered sticking with this game in the first place. I'm not here for bland, one sided tales from self proclaimed 'heroes' who have minimal stakes and lecture everybody else for not being gifted with plot armour and every possible advantage to ensure their victory one way or another.

It certainly wasn't the Scions who kept me invested. Alas, if not for WoW crashing and burning at the time I never would have jumped over here in the first place and that game spiralled even further out of control after I left.

It's ironic, I suppose, that two MMO's have been ruined in large part by refusing to hold female antagonists to the same standards as their male counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I actually considered it a few years back but my encounters with some of the more unhinged members of this community made me not want to put anything out there that would make me easy to identify in the real world.

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That too, given the sort of mean-spirited behavior that FFXIV players engage in outside the forums whenever someone has a (valid) critique of the game, it makes it too much of a risk. FFXIV players seem to regularly interpret things like rightfully calling out characters like Venat's motives or asking for more customization options appropriate for either gender as infractions against their morals - ones that are not shared by the entire playerbase but that doesn't stop them from engaging in all sorts of behavior that would lead to repercussions in real life.

I'd rather switch games than deal with that. So I basically have, back to single player titles while FFXIV figures out what it wants to do with itself while its community carries on as usual. A playerbase whose voice is dominated by such individuals isn't worth that much of my time or effort to save from itself, especially if they're brazen enough to engage in the sort of behavior they've already demonstrated against other people.

Maybe if Yoship hadn't pandered to them not only would the story be in a better state, but there would actually be somewhat of a feeling of "home" left in this game instead of vague hostility for not towing the same line as everyone else. The only solace I have is that the kinds of players people are concerned about seem to have entrenched themselves deeply into FFXIV and seldom play other games, so I don't have to worry about them chasing after me elsewhere.

Diofield Chronicle is already coming out next week. And with it I gain a new world full of the sort of things that brought me to this game in the first place and whose absence now turns me away.

https://novacrystallis.com/wp-conten...f-1024x580.png

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

We don't need the latest attempt of modern media to reincarnate Hermoine Granger to join the party, certainly not in Lalafell form.

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If this joke was used on Y'shtola, it would have actually been funny. Because she fits the bill a thousand times better then Krile.
I dont even remember the last time Krile was a Know-it-all Mage/Wizard that Won at Existing. Christ, she was barly even used.
But Y'shtola sure fits that bill.
Not that I dislike her at all, but if you gonna make such a comparison, this would have worked better.

But anyway moving foreword.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

YouTube seems to be lacking in any kind of in-depth story analysis of Endwalker or FFXIV in general, positive or negative. It's all about story reactions with fake crying and exagerated marketable faces, or superlative adjectives but nobody to try and take it to the next level. Isn't it weird? Where is it? Even dumb shonen manga I follow get their videos essays.

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I mean.....there are people unlike ya'll that did actually enjoy the story and the events that happened and legit got invested.
Its fine to not agree with them, but no need to completely dismissive just because you dont agree with it. Especially without proof.



But, getting off of all of that.
Upon multiple viewings and reactions to endwalker, Ive said before that it has its problems. The problem became bigger as I was able to watch it more critically, Im better at that after my 2nd or 3rd viewing. Elpis was good world-building, but kind of slow, and the ending of it while very interesting, did make me ask questions. Some of them being kinda "outside looking in" which you can do to any situation. But just overall Ive discovered that there is NO WAY you can ever write time travel stuff and NOT screw up something major at the end.
Then Ultima Thule WAS cool, all the way till the end at the final part with Metion and our 2 favorite Ascians....which then made you think why didnt we just use The Azem Crystal immediately?....The reasoning for it....was non-sensible, especially at the end.

Zodiark & Fandaniel was entertaining. I LOVED that twist, very 5head. But....it literally Neutered ALL of that Building up and storytelling.
I dont hate that Zodiark was solved early for a MUCH bigger plot. But I do hate how quick it was....Probly a contradiction. But I guess I mean it would have been cool if Zodiark himself was an actual threat, like he HIMSELF actually did some stuff and caused some havok and we had to make a plan to chase him and take him down. Could have even been a threat to the Lopperots and the Moon. Naw...just became a Puppet that got taken over, and INCOMPLETE puppet at that. So we didnt even fight him at full Power!
Again, there was a much bigger plot, so Zodiark Not being the final boss is fine. Just how little time and effort we spent on dealing with him is the issue.

And then we have the Final Days itself.
Only real issue that I think has been echoed many times...we can all mostly agree.....they didnt do as much with it as they could have.
Now Im not advocating from All this Suffering and stuff that Others love to harp and drone on about.....but I just think they didnt do much with it at all.
I quite enjoyed the Side stories; The Role Quests. (Although I think the Physical Ranged one was the weakest) I think they could have tried to mix in some of their narratives into the MSQ.
It probly would create some padding, but the scale fight to resist the Final Days would have been much bigger, and abit more satisfying.
Heck, would have been really cool if like the Benchmark, we eventually win over Garlemald and become temp allies and they helped around Eoarzea to help the innocents, slay the Blasphemies, and even start to bridge that once HUGE gap between the alliance and the Imperials.
Maybe we still wouldnt become Friends right away, and there would still be ALOT of bad blood to work through...but I do personally like stories were differences can be put aside for the greater good.
Plus it would have been more content and even lore for Garlemald.

Ok there is my rambling and my thoughts on the story.
Just to show and prove that I do agree that Endwalker isnt perfect, I have my grievances, I agree on some points that have been brought up.
Ill also agree that we should have some content creators speak and give some critiques. Maybe in the future
I personally doubt there are too afraid because of fan backlash, but more so that they also just enjoy the ride enough that they dont feel motivated to harp on and attack its weak points.

Ok, Done.

Chrono Trigger didn't screw up anything major with its time travel plot.
Dirk Gently's Season 1 as well.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.
Because it's incredibly hard to see any thumbnails that don't have people who need the views to make a living as creators with these predictable dramatic expressions in their thumbnails and yellow letters saying "BEST STORY EVER MADE" etc.

There is the saying "be the change you want to make" but even if I could make videos myself I'm not well articulated at all. As can be seen in any of my posts in the forum.

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I would make some critical videos on the story if I was better at speaking. I'm very good at typing but I'm very bad at speaking out loud. I can have the best ideas in the world but ask me to speak about them out loud and it's an incoherent mess.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

YouTube seems to be lacking in any kind of in-depth story analysis of Endwalker or FFXIV in general, positive or negative. It's all about story reactions with fake crying and exagerated marketable faces, or superlative adjectives but nobody to try and take it to the next level. Isn't it weird? Where is it? Even dumb shonen manga I follow get their videos essays.

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Gotta farm those overreacting to story clicks and views for the cash flow. Seriously though, there aren't many YouTubers making analysis videos because they're not as popular and thus don't make as much money. People would rather watch you fake cry over nothing than hear a well thought out argument. And if you wanna have a job in making videos or streaming the game, you need to do what the people want, not what you want. It's stupid, but that's how YouTube is right now.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I would simply prefer if the feedback we posted here was taken into consideration without the need for such grand overtures to be necessary to get the feedback through to the dev team about what didn't work for Endwalker.

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Agreed. I'm not sure why we need big content creators to whine about things in order for them to get fixed when everyday players were complaining for far longer. SE clearly doesn't listen to the playerbase unless a big name content creator starts making noise.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I actually considered it a few years back but my encounters with some of the more unhinged members of this community made me not want to put anything out there that would make me easy to identify in the real world. I usually go by a different name in each online community that I'm a part of

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Same. I don't feel comfortable sharing my irl self with certain parts of this community. There are just too many people who are absolutely unhinged and I think that if I were to make critical content of the game, I'd be lining myself in opposition to the worst parts of this community.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think FFXIV has essentially just shifted its target audience and genre altogether at this point which is highly unfortunate. It markets itself as a 'story driven' experience but it really isn't that at all

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It's the same thing that happened to Marvel. The MCU was a well thought out (it wasn't perfect but it was good) universe with good stories. However the writers realized they could put zero effort in and 85% of the audience would eat it up no matter how bad it was. That's how we got trash like She Hulk. The same thing is happening here. The writers CAN make good stories like SHB, but why do that when they can make low effort garbage and people will still praise it?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's ironic, I suppose, that two MMO's have been ruined in large part by refusing to hold female antagonists to the same standards as their male counterparts.

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This has sadly been something being pushed into a lot of media lately. Female characters get their evil actions labeled as justified by other characters while male characters who do evil things (and sometimes in cases where they don't) get labeled as the unequivocal bad guy. Back before Endwalker was released, I had the foolish hope that SE was better than that. That SE was a good company that would continue to write good stories and leave this type of crap out of it. I wish I wasn't so wrong. :(

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

That too, given the sort of mean-spirited behavior that FFXIV players engage in outside the forums whenever someone has a (valid) critique of the game, it makes it too much of a risk. FFXIV players seem to regularly interpret things like rightfully calling out characters like Venat's motives or asking for more customization options appropriate for either gender as infractions against their morals

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I too am getting sick of a certain part of the community's hatred of criticism. (We all know who the ones on the forums are) If you dare have a critique about the game, if you dare not agree with the story sanctioned 'good guys', and if you dare have an idea on how to make something better, well you're just a rotten evil person to these people. I was going to write a Graha rewrite showing how I'd change the character to improve him, but I'm not sure I even want to. The same group of posters will see my thread, see that I don't think the game is perfect, and act like I killed a defenseless kitten. I might still end up posting that if I finish it, but I don't know if it's even worth doing with how the community is. I expect their kind of behavior on the cesspools that are Reddit and Twitter, but it's kinda sad to see it on the forums. The forums are meant to be a place for critiques, yet some people are just more interested in pretending that everything's fine.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I mean.....there are people unlike ya'll that did actually enjoy the story and the events that happened and legit got invested.
Its fine to not agree with them, but no need to completely dismissive just because you dont agree with it. Especially without proof.

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Not at all what I meant. While I was dismissive of the reactions videos because I think it's just garbage content no matter if I appreciate the subject matter or not, I have no doubt a lot of people legitimately love Endwalker. I'm just curious why there's not much interest for an actual story analysis or dissection in FFXIV in particular, while it's something that gets quite a decent amount of views in most other popular works I know. Even other entries in the franchise.

Well, the latest short story dropped on the lodestone and it revolves around Garlemald and Jullus. It gives a few more snippets of Garlean lore and is hopefully setting the table for more Garlean stuff in the future. It'd be nice if at least one of the provinces began rallying wayward Garleans to its side and gave them an authentic, permanent home after everything they've been through.

I'm glad they're not being vilified at least. I would have very much liked a Garlean focused expansion especially if the intrigue and major story beats were handled by Matsuno but what we ended up getting wasn't nearly as terrible as I feared it would end up being.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Chrono Trigger didn't screw up anything major with its time travel plot.
Dirk Gently's Season 1 as well.

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I mean...if you try not to think too much about the logistics behind time travel then you can easily say that since Chrono Trigger also didn't try to delve too deep onto itself ( for the most part ).

But then Chrono Cross happened so not much argument can be had comparing FFXIV with Chrono Trigger.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I mean...if you try not to think too much about the logistics behind time travel then you can easily say that since Chrono Trigger also didn't try to delve too deep onto itself ( for the most part ).

But then Chrono Cross happened so not much argument can be had comparing FFXIV with Chrono Trigger.

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Chrono Cross was an afterthought. Trigger wasn't made with sequels in mind. A good time travel story doesn't necessarily need to make sense by what you'd expect law of physics or reality dictate. The reason I consider Chrono Trigger a good example is because they stabilish their own rules of time travel clearly to the player, and stick to them til the end.
XIV throws its own rules out the window every time a new time travel scenario comes up. If the previously stabilished rules prevent them from doing something they wanted to do/makes it not as "cool" they just ignore or change it.

Another bad example like XIV's case is Avengers Endgame. They spend a scene explaining the rules and promptly break them anyway, with none of the consequences of breaking said rules happening.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Chrono Cross was an afterthought. Trigger wasn't made with sequels in mind. A good time travel story doesn't necessarily need to make sense by what you'd expect law of physics or reality dictate. The reason I consider Chrono Trigger a good example is because they stabilish their own rules of time travel clearly to the player, and stick to them til the end.
XIV throws its own rules out the window every time a new time travel scenario comes up. If the previously stabilished rules prevent them from doing something they wanted to do/makes it not as "cool" they just ignore or change it.

Another bad example like XIV's case is Avengers Endgame. They spend a scene explaining the rules and promptly break them anyway, with none of the consequences of breaking said rules happening.

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No it doesn't, Chrono Trigger for the most part ignores a lot of its own rules for the sake of the plot even when they first introduce them in detail like Marle's ancestor. The reason it works it's due to writers masking the plot holes very well.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Not at all what I meant. While I was dismissive of the reactions videos because I think it's just garbage content no matter if I appreciate the subject matter or not, I have no doubt a lot of people legitimately love Endwalker. I'm just curious why there's not much interest for an actual story analysis or dissection in FFXIV in particular, while it's something that gets quite a decent amount of views in most other popular works I know. Even other entries in the franchise.

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At the end of my Word Salad I did mention ""Ill also agree that we should have some content creators speak and give some critiques""
So I do agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I mean...if you try not to think too much about the logistics behind time travel then you can easily say that since Chrono Trigger also didn't try to delve too deep onto itself ( for the most part ).

But then Chrono Cross happened so not much argument can be had comparing FFXIV with Chrono Trigger.

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You can't really compare Chrono Cross well to Chrono Trigger, considering that originally they wanted Cross to be a standalone title. A lot of the Trigger stuff is shoehorned in towards the end of the game instead of sprinkled throughout.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You can't really compare Chrono Cross well to Chrono Trigger, considering that originally they wanted Cross to be a standalone title. A lot of the Trigger stuff is shoehorned in towards the end of the game instead of sprinkled throughout.

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Not really since Chrono Cross in of itself drives a lot of its own plot based on the events of Trigger and the world of Trigger.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Took quite a bit of searching to find a video telling like it is regarding how Ultima Thule's writing was abysmal, and it got me wishing people as articulated as Theodric, aveyond, Lauront, Vyrerus or Teraq would make videos criticizing what needs criticizing about FFXIV's writing.
Because it's incredibly hard to see any thumbnails that don't have people who need the views to make a living as creators with these predictable dramatic expressions in their thumbnails and yellow letters saying "BEST STORY EVER MADE" etc.

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The only long-form video I remember watching that even resembles a critique was this one, it doesn't go too deep into story, and it feels outdated now (for obvious reasons) but it surprised me at the time.

I've flirted with the idea myself but decided not to for several reasons. Also, the thought of being reacted at by some twitch homunculus makes me sick somehow.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I would simply prefer if the feedback we posted here was taken into consideration without the need for such grand overtures to be necessary to get the feedback through to the dev team about what didn't work for Endwalker.

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Agree 100%, but sadly the impression I got is that they mostly listen to video "influencers", unless I see evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Not really since Chrono Cross in of itself drives a lot of its own plot based on the events of Trigger and the world of Trigger.

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Which again, we find out at the end of Cross, meaning it's shoehorned in.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Which again, we find out at the end of Cross, meaning it's shoehorned in.

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No it's not, that stuff is sprinkled in right there from the beginning. Don't you remember the whole business with Porre in Termina? The corruption of the Masamune? Belthasar at Viper Manor? They didn't shoehorned Trigger into Cross, they based the plot around it from the start. I'm sure the case that it wasn't like that during early phases of its development but it's foolish to think making the game part of the Trigger universe was like a last second addition.


Besides my whole argument was me saying that Trigger's time travel plot wasn't as well founded as many people think it was if we're going to start comparing EW's time travel ideas with Trigger.


Bottom line is no matter what time travel in of itself is always a mess to try to implement and it's almost futile to try to dissect it's format.

I feel like one problem with time travel, is that when it becomes a big plot point in a series without time travel heavy elements.

Even then it varies, but i feel they made the big mistake of having multiple time travel methods along with time travel element now hanging over every previous plot point with venat knowing all was going to happen. it takes away agency from everyone else for big crystal waifu.



On another note, read the new short story, i skipped the hermes one because the watcher one put a sour taste in my mouth, i dont mind this garlemald one, its mostly solemn and about picking up the ashes after it all.

For me Endwalker's story was ok, it had really good moments but ultimately I feel like the pacing is probably the worst out of any expansion, especially after Shadowbringers where everything was so tight and it never felt like a second was wasted.
Though that could also be because ShB was way more driven by characters and their development than EW.

the plot of endwalkers is basically some guy lit the world on fire go put it out. then we learn a bunch of idiots lit the world a really really long time ago and instead of solving installed sprinkler system called Zodiark. So we have to go fix that. By ummm fighting some depressed bird girl in some sorta fever dream made reality called Ultima Thule.(or everybody just did aloooooot of drugs offscreen)and while doing all of this we 're constantly being interrupted b-*Zenos bursts into the room*"FIGHT ME!!" damn it not now I'm busy!

*EW is so bad that people are throwing Chrono Trigger under the bus to justify EW's story*
What a sad state of affairs... :^(

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*EW is so bad that people are throwing Chrono Trigger under the bus to justify EW's story*
What a sad state of affairs... :^(

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EW isn't Chrono Trigger though. It was somebody making a point about one aspect of EW's story with time travel apparently being so bad and comparing it to how Chrono Trigger handled it when I reality that game is just as guilty of the same "criticism" as the points given to why they think it's bad.