What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Also, Athena is my new queen. An Ancient woman being portrayed as an outright villain and flaunting it like the narc she is? How refreshingly honest!

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ATHENA APPRECIATOR HIGH FIVE. I might be kind of in love with her and it's a little concerning actually

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Also, Athena is my new queen. An Ancient woman being portrayed as an outright villain and flaunting it like the narc she is? How refreshingly honest! If only all narcissistic Ancient women could be like this.......

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Venat, without the "SHE LOVES YOU" shaming for not accepting her gift of sundering.

I lost respect for the Watcher. I also feel like this story implies her followers were so beguiled by her they would've done whatever she wanted without question. It's interesting to note that the JP translation of the Omega quest chain doesn't say 'those who shared her vision' but 'those who adored her'.

Venat reminds me of Hathor from "Gods of Egypt" where she uses the power of love to command others into doing her bidding. I know people have debunked that her name is supposed to be Venus in JP, but it sure does seem like that's a special ability of hers to enthrall others. It also brings into question if she was really that brilliant or others fluffed her up because they were so enchanted by her. (This is totally my new headcanon, by the way.)

I'll just say that people having issues with the writers apparent "trying" to paint Venat as this benevolent person lately is something thats was there from the start of the game. Aka big crystal Hydaelyn.

It was obvious that Hydaelyn wasn't gonna be some Disney twist villain a lot of you expected or wanted to be when in most of the mythos in the FF series, the mother crystal was always something that is revered to be good in their lore. FFXIV is no different cept that they gave the mother crystal an actual character.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I'll just say that people having issues with the writers apparent "trying" to paint Venat as this benevolent person lately is something thats was there from the start of the game. Aka big crystal Hydaelyn.

It was obvious that Hydaelyn wasn't gonna be some Disney twist villain a lot of you expected or wanted to be when in most of the mythos in the FF series, the mother crystal was always something that is revered to be good in their lore. FFXIV is no different cept that they gave the mother crystal an actual character.

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Hardly anyone here has been asking for Hydaelyn to be a straight up villain. It was suggested that in the context of her story it would make sense for her to be well meaning antagonist who happened to benefit the Sundered but still needed to be stopped and called out for the horrific atrocities she committed on the Unsundered. No amount of handwaving makes genocide suddenly acceptable - let alone to those who happen to be the victims of it.

My own stance is that it makes perfect sense for the Sundered not to want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered but the reverse is true as well. The game can disagree with that all it wants, can gaslight into pretending Venat is some quirky 'herois' and straight up retcon lore in a vain effort to make her look better...but I strongly disagree that it was 'always obvious' that she was going to be a perfect loving goddess. She was literally a talking crystal who never spoke in clear terms and shifted the blame from herself to those she deliberately tormented.

At this point the best way to salvage Venat would be to create some sort of alternate universe and quietly shuffle the Ancients over there so they can have their happy ending. If, at any point, the writers try to double down on the 'Ancients deserved to be genocided' rhetoric then I'm sure you can imagine the frustration and backlash that will arise.

Generally speaking if we wouldn't consider something acceptable for the protagonists to be subjected to then there's no reason anybody else in the setting needs to be fine with it happening to them.

Yet people try to justify the genocide the Ancients attempt to do through the sacrifices as a good thing. I'm sorry, but the Ancients in general have really skewed morals and the entire event in the past is horribly gray. Stop trying to paint the race as pure black or white, accept the fact that they're all horrible people with good intentions, and move on.

Maybe if the sundered weren't objectively worse in every possible way.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yet people try to justify the genocide the Ancients attempt to do through the sacrifices as a good thing. I'm sorry, but the Ancients in general have really skewed morals and the entire event in the past is horribly gray. Stop trying to paint the race as pure black or white, accept the fact that they're all horrible people with good intentions, and move on.

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Sorry, I don't need to accept "they're all horrible people with good intentions" as anything even vaguely resembling fact, thanks. We are shown pretty clearly that for the vast majority, basic human decency is the norm and that when the occasional errant deviant shows up in society, that they are not shown as being even remotely acceptable. They are certainly not trying to play god and are trying to do their best with the immeasurable power they've been granted for the sake of their world. What horrible people. Much Bad.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yet people try to justify the genocide the Ancients attempt to do through the sacrifices as a good thing. I'm sorry, but the Ancients in general have really skewed morals and the entire event in the past is horribly gray. Stop trying to paint the race as pure black or white, accept the fact that they're all horrible people with good intentions, and move on.

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Uh... what genocide? The one of willing people to stop the literal end of the world? The one of other willing people to literally kickstart life back up on a rotting planet? Or the one of a portion of wildlife that was kickstarted by the previous one, to bring back the willing people that were left actually alive in limbo within Zodiark? Is this the one we're calling "genocide"?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yet people try to justify the genocide the Ancients attempt to do through the sacrifices as a good thing. I'm sorry, but the Ancients in general have really skewed morals and the entire event in the past is horribly gray. Stop trying to paint the race as pure black or white, accept the fact that they're all horrible people with good intentions, and move on.

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Fixing a problem deliberately inflicted upon a society with the intention of wiping them out is a different beast. With that said, many Ancient fans have actually pushed for a 'third way forward' where there's a happy ending for both the Sundered and the Unsundered. The game's already handwaving how things can wrap up in a neat little bow when it benefits the protagonists after all.

As for 'moving on'? No, thank you. Putting aside the fact that I don't buy into the idea that the Ancients are 'horrible people' I've noticed a trend where the same people insisting that the Scions have to be front and centre at every opportunity and clad in excessive plot armour like to demand that those of us who like other aspects of the setting should just shut up about the things we like in a game notorious for fanservice. A bit strange, in all honesty.

Personally I was hoping a few of the Scions were going to be written off in EW in some way, as it'd feel more like a finale. I'm not talking killed off, but something like Y'shtola taking a heavy blow that forces her into retirement due to being unable to sense the Abominations.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hardly anyone here has been asking for Hydaelyn to be a straight up villain. It was suggested that in the context of her story it would make sense for her to be well meaning antagonist who happened to benefit the Sundered but still needed to be stopped and called out for the horrific atrocities she committed on the Unsundered. No amount of handwaving makes genocide suddenly acceptable - let alone to those who happen to be the victims of it.

My own stance is that it makes perfect sense for the Sundered not to want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered but the reverse is true as well. The game can disagree with that all it wants, can gaslight into pretending Venat is some quirky 'herois' and straight up retcon lore in a vain effort to make her look better...but I strongly disagree that it was 'always obvious' that she was going to be a perfect loving goddess. She was literally a talking crystal who never spoke in clear terms and shifted the blame from herself to those she deliberately tormented.

At this point the best way to salvage Venat would be to create some sort of alternate universe and quietly shuffle the Ancients over there so they can have their happy ending. If, at any point, the writers try to double down on the 'Ancients deserved to be genocided' rhetoric then I'm sure you can imagine the frustration and backlash that will arise.

Generally speaking if we wouldn't consider something acceptable for the protagonists to be subjected to then there's no reason anybody else in the setting needs to be fine with it happening to them.

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I fail to see where in the context lies that us as the audience were supposed to be see Venat as this "antagonist" when all this time we've been helped by her blessing numerous times in our endeavors. The most we get in terms of questioning were her status as a "primal" and in the context at the time we assumed that all primals were bad news considering their nature of sapping away aether from the land and tempering people into mindless zombies who do nothing but worship them. Yet none of those qualities applied to Hydaelyn herself as:

1. She being the mother crystal, didnt cause any danger to the world by siphoning aether.
2. Tempering? I suppose her giving us the Echo and the Blessing of Light is a boon, but not once did our character nor any other of the WoLs went around worshipping her mindlessly or act out of their own volition; traits that reflect one from being actually tempered.

The setup that was established with Venat/Hyadaelyn during the end of Shb was mostly just "what exactly are you, and what is the grand plan here"

I think the Ancients just suck. The big ones just became genocidal maniacs in the long term. Evil is often paved with good intentions. It's somewhat similar to the downfall of Zeal from Chrono Trigger. Perfect society that falls to ruin.

I find most if not all the Ancients unrelatable and just horrible creatures in general.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I think the Ancients just suck. The big ones just became genocidal maniacs in the long term. Evil is often paved with good intentions. It's somewhat similar to the downfall of Zeal from Chrono Trigger. Perfect society that falls to ruin.

I find most if not all the Ancients unrelatable and just horrible creatures in general.

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Meanwhile, how many imperfect societies fell in the story? How many "perfect" (yes, quotation marks because the game loves that strawman term) ones (like the dragons') fell for no reason? Though you're entitled to your opinion, I can't say it makes the slightest bit of sense to me.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I think the Ancients just suck. The big ones just became genocidal maniacs in the long term. Evil is often paved with good intentions. It's somewhat similar to the downfall of Zeal from Chrono Trigger. Perfect society that falls to ruin.

I find most if not all the Ancients unrelatable and just horrible creatures in general.

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Hmm, the big ones that Venat purposely saved from the Sundering so that they could go forward and commit the genocide that she was well aware of and even made them some handy-dandy extra planets to use as fodder for it? Such horrible people.

And the society that falls to ruin because Venat doesn't bother lifting a finger to try and save them from the external threat she knew was heading their way? Yes, again, well deserved.

I think people are upset the more information that's released about Venat the worse she looks. Particularly in this case, the short story proved their opposition was correct. Now we have to suffer lame attempts to antagonize. "Oh yeah? Well the Ancients still suck, so nyah!"

Also, I didn't think I'd make the 700 club before my posting privileges were lost, but I might at this rate!

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I think people are upset the more information that's released about Venat the worse she looks. Particularly in this case, the short story proved their opposition was correct. Now we have to suffer lame attempts to antagonize. "Oh yeah? Well the Ancients still suck, so nyah!"

Also, I didn't think I'd make the 700 club before my posting privileges were lost, but I might at this rate!

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People in this very thread like to simp...a LOT, for the Ancients, to the point where Venat is often treated like the anti-christ or Lucifer. It gets rather annoying, to be perfectly honest, especially considering this topic hasn't been dropped in over 8 months (seriously people, WTF is the matter with you!?)...and makes some people in this thread easy to troll, even if it ends up being that accidentally.

I ate some beef earlier. It was tasty.

But, yeah - the concern over it being such a red line to kill a bunch of animals seems strange to me. If in order to restore my loved ones I had to sacrifice a bunch of chickens then I'd feel bad for the chickens but my loved ones are ultimately the priority.

We don't blame the Sundered for cutting down people who try to harm their loved ones. There's no whining about the Ala Mhigans killing wildlife that had settled in the Temple of the First after it it fell into ruin.

The game isn't consistent with its themes or established lines in the sand, so there's no reason for us as players to take them seriously.

As for Hydaelyn, I distinctly remember many people speaking up over the years to express that they didn't trust her and found her to be creepy and manipulative. As it happened, even back then whenever anyone did so the 'milady, thy honour must be restored' types emerged in droves to defend everything even when she was just a crystal because she had a 'soft, pretty voice'.

Generally speaking, people who like the antagonists appreciate nuance. That's what interests them - so I don't know why there's this constant, strange insinuation that we wouldn't like Venat if she was written to be nuanced and the game stopped trying to hide her genocidal antics behind fluffy words and instead had her held as accountable for her actions as the Ascians and Garleans were.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It gets rather annoying, to be perfectly honest, especially considering this topic hasn't been dropped in over 8 months (seriously people, WTF is the matter with you!?).

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This coming from someone who knowingly has frequented this thread for just as long despite not liking the discussion that happens here?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This coming from someone who knowingly has frequented this thread for just as long despite not liking the discussion that happens here?

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I stop by every few months, if you recall, just to see how the hell this thread is still existing.

Someone fill me in, because I didn't visit these forums during ShB, but did the anti-Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd stop discussing how much they disliked them after a set number of months afterwards?

Listen I don't know about anyone else but what I'm ultimately getting from this (as my chicken sandwich digests) is that Athena indeed rules and we should all sing her praises. If I (or Venat) was more like Athena and outright and shamelessly countered any ethical objections from my society about my desires with raw LMAO choke on it losers, things would be different around here. It's inspirational!

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Someone fill me in, because I didn't visit these forums during ShB, but did the anti-Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd stop discussing how much they disliked them after a set number of months afterwards?

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There really wasn't much of an anti Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd. If anything, people felt bad for having to kill the guy and doom an entire race.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I fail to see where in the context lies that us as the audience were supposed to be see Venat as this "antagonist" when all this time we've been helped by her blessing numerous times in our endeavors. The most we get in terms of questioning were her status as a "primal" and in the context at the time we assumed that all primals were bad news considering their nature of sapping away aether from the land and tempering people into mindless zombies who do nothing but worship them. Yet none of those qualities applied to Hydaelyn herself as:

1. She being the mother crystal, didnt cause any danger to the world by siphoning aether.
2. Tempering? I suppose her giving us the Echo and the Blessing of Light is a boon, but not once did our character nor any other of the WoLs went around worshipping her mindlessly or act out of their own volition; traits that reflect one from being actually tempered.

The setup that was established with Venat/Hyadaelyn during the end of Shb was mostly just "what exactly are you, and what is the grand plan here"

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You're conveniently forgetting the part where the entire scene in the Word of the Mother is essentially her lying thanks to what we learnt in SHB (and really, in EW this isn't even disputed), and that she essentially willingly went against her people, the ancients, and sundered (=genocided) them (the question being if it was accidental or not)? The 3.2 art with her wrapping crystalline chains around Minfilia? The suggestion based on Elidibus that becoming the heart can take a toll on that individual, as well as their memories, and thus she may be similarly affected? And how the WoL, as soon as he meets her incarnation as Venat, in EW, is sceptical of her? Or how Y'shtola and Krile began questioning the reasons behind her inaction?

BTW she never granted the Echo. She can awaken it, but it's not hers to give; it is an inherent albeit fragmented trait of the ancients, awakened through the right events.

A character benefiting the protagonists scarcely implies they can't be or become antagonistic. It's not really a good argument.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There really wasn't much of an anti Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd. If anything, people felt bad for having to kill the guy and doom an entire race.

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Hmm I remember rather differently.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

People in this very thread like to simp...a LOT, for the Ancients, to the point where Venat is often treated like the anti-christ or Lucifer. It gets rather annoying, to be perfectly honest, especially considering this topic hasn't been dropped in over 8 months (seriously people, WTF is the matter with you!?)...and makes some people in this thread easy to troll, even if it ends up being that accidentally.

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I can't say I've seen much in the way of 'simping' for the Ancients. People like them because they're interesting and actually have stakes which can't really be said for the game's major protagonists. Any fondness for their appearance is incidental - personally I find the Ancients too weirdly proportioned. I like big, beefy guys so I certainly don't 'simp' for the Ancients. Even then, a character can look very much to my liking but if their personality or actions are not at least understandable then I lose interest very fast.

Now compare the detailed feedback towards the actual meat of the Ancients and their lore...and compare it with Twitch chat being flooded with 'mOmMy' the moment even a picture of her is shown on screen during a Live Letter.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There really wasn't much of an anti Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd.

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You don't visit the lore forum much, do you?

I think people just read into things that arent really supposed to be there. Its like when people like to overanalyze a book that "oh this was written because of x, or this totally illustrates y" or search for meaning that wasnt there, when half of the time its ideas or concepts the author genuinely wasnt trying to write about.

Its also why I dislike the general idea that "FFXIV is the best jrpg story ever told" and oversell it when really its just an above average standard story coming from someone who's played numerous jrpgs before. It makes people try to annoyingly validate that claim.

I absolutely love this game's story and I totally enjoy the concept of seeing my created character go into this big long journey but there's lots of other games that Ive played that did some of this game's themes and ideas much better because they were able to solely base around them in a single player experience space. But this being an MMO, there's a lot of cut corners done to make this story work as much as possible. It works for me, but because of it, I cant ever say that FFXIV's story is the greatest thing ever. I still prefer my single-player games to give me better and concise stories and at the very least this game's devs and writing team can finally stretch their legs with the upcoming FFXVI, which Im looking forward to.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

ATHENA APPRECIATOR HIGH FIVE. I might be kind of in love with her and it's a little concerning actually

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Nah, nothing concerning at all about that.

https://i.imgur.com/qftb7VY.jpg

I love me a woman who will actually just kill me.

Besides, you've seen Athena but have you seen her husband?

https://i.imgur.com/s6te5UP.jpg

I will SIMP for this man 'till the day I die.

Unapologetic, unashamed, unrepentant and unafeared.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Nah, nothing concerning at all about that.

https://i.imgur.com/qftb7VY.jpg

I love me a woman who will actually just kill me.

Besides, you've seen Athena but have you seen her husband?

https://i.imgur.com/s6te5UP.jpg

I will SIMP for this man 'till the day I die.

Unapologetic, unashamed, unrepentant and unafeared.

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That man makes my lady bits tingle, and I am not ashamed to admit it. I love cool, calm, collected men. I mean, considering Elidibus, Gaius, Lahabrea. . .can you tell I have a type? lmao.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hardly anyone here has been asking for Hydaelyn to be a straight up villain.

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Where were you when that guy made a whole re-write where she's a crazed murderer? Or just a couple of posts above this one:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

An Ancient woman being portrayed as an outright villain and flaunting it like the narc she is? How refreshingly honest! If only all narcissistic Ancient women could be like this.......

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I can't say I've seen much in the way of 'simping' for the Ancients.

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The posts above mine say otherwise.

I don't really think it's a case of people overanalysing the story. The game bends over backwards to highlight how story focused it happens to be and locks the bulk of content behind the MSQ's.

I don't think it being an MMO holds it back either. TESO manages to have a lot more focus on worldbuilding, has ten playable races with distinct lore and also manages to give plenty of material for the likes of the Reachmen and Maormer as well.

Personally I'd like more focus on consistent worldbuilding and characters behaving in a way that makes sense for their circumstances and perspective rather than being artificially fine with whatever happens. I don't care much for 'rule of cool' where everything is flash and no substance. That's precisely why I stopped playing World of Warcraft - but even then, I'll concede that at least the stakes felt high in that setting.

I want more in the way of fanservice for the stuff I like instead of the game using Twitter to promote a minion saying 'THIS IS THANCRED' or a bunch of lopporits shaking their behinds on a stage that looks straight out of a modern day concert. Certainly, neither of those things were what would grip me back in the days of ARR when I first started playing FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There really wasn't much of an anti Emet-Selch/Ascian crowd. If anything, people felt bad for having to kill the guy and doom an entire race.

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I only felt bad for him until we learned about about Venat. Now the two are no different to me, both did what they felt was right but were wrong for doing it.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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SOMEONE didn't actually pay attention to the story or they'd know that the ancients had TOO MUCH AETHER to be able to manipulate dynamis. Which is why she sundered everyone to begin with: Knowing that only by doing so, would man ever hope to interact or call upon dynamis in times of need.

If Zodiark wasn't killed, the Ascians would have won. He was weak, he was only partially reformed, and Fandaniel had a plan: To have Zodiark slain so that the Ascians would lose, and The Final Days would rain down upon Etheirys. Without Zodiark's death, you wouldn't have the (AWESOME) story that we have now.

Reading comprehension: It isn't for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Angellos

SOMEONE didn't actually pay attention to the story or they'd know that the ancients had TOO MUCH AETHER to be able to manipulate dynamis. Which is why she sundered everyone to begin with: Knowing that only by doing so, would man ever hope to interact or call upon dynamis in times of need.

If Zodiark wasn't killed, the Ascians would have won. He was weak, he was only partially reformed, and Fandaniel had a plan: To have Zodiark slain so that the Ascians would lose, and The Final Days would rain down upon Etheirys. Without Zodiark's death, you wouldn't have the (AWESOME) story that we have now.

Reading comprehension: It isn't for everyone.

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https://i.imgur.com/Jb20nV4.jpg

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Where were you when that guy made a whole re-write where she's a crazed murderer? Or just a couple of posts above this one:





The posts above mine say otherwise.

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1 comment = representation of entire thread

go home guys, she's solved it, game's over

I see that someone has brought up my rewrite of the MSQ, which interested people can find here.

As I stated:

Quote:

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The following is a fanmade story concept that seeks to visualize what a potential Garlemald expansion would have been like, followed by the events of a rewritten Endwalker. The key differences in this story are the expanded upon imperial territories, expanded upon Unsundered World, new characters, and revisions to pre-existing characters, along with more unfiltered moments in the story. I made an effort to extend an olive branch by not outright deleting characters who I viewed as ineffective in the original Endwalker MSQ, instead giving them alternate roles in the storyline that I felt suited them better. Naturally this does contain or allude to spoilers from events across the entire game’s MSQ.

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I feel that I did the best I could do to deliver a story that respected both the best of EW's ideas along with the overall state of the world prior to this expansion. I re-imagined Venat as a villainess based upon the image that the game had painted of her in late Shadowbringers. You don't have to agree with my interpretations of things, but I think I did an ok job.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

1 comment = representation of entire thread

go home guys, she's solved it, game's over

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The posts I quoted were just from today.

You haven't been here for long if you think that people haven't been simping for Ancients or wanting Venat to be a villain. The OP for the EW rewrite even said they wrote her as one in the post above this.

I'm not really in the business of policing what other people say or do on the forum. Nor have the people in this thread ever operated as a hive mind who all share the exact shame opinions on every front no matter how hard a certain bunny over on the lore forum tries to push her strange theory about posters here being my alt accounts.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

https://i.imgur.com/Jb20nV4.jpg

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Having good taste isn't for everyone either.

Venat is an antagonist, she's just not treated as one. Sorry, you don't get to enact racial cleansing, spare the very people you know will cause rejoinings, compromise the integrity of the planet, all the souls upon it, and tie the fate of 13 (originally) other shards to its survival and not objectively be considered an antagonist in terms of the world's history. Literally the only reason she's not is because she helps the WoL, ignoring that she put all her eggs in the WoL's basket and it's in her own self interest to ensure nothing bad happens to them. (Also ignoring that the WoL existing means she tore her protégé's soul apart not to mention condemned Ardbert.)

Having to reiterate this because apparently even after almost 700 pages it still needs to be said.

I'm not claiming she's malicious and evil either since I know that's coming next. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. She can be well meaning and still responsible for heinous and unforgivable crimes against mankind (both unsundered and sundered) for the supposed 'greater good'. The only difference is FFXIV tried to gaslight their way out of it.