What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

I didn't view Thordan as bad. His intentions were good, but he was taking the authoritarian route to 'save' the world. The Garleans' weren't much different, many of them had the belief that to stop the threat of primals everything had to be under their rule.

Hard disagree about Yotsuyu. Her backstory may have been unfortunate, but she turned into a twisted individual who derived pleasure from torturing innocents. Don't get me wrong, I liked having a strictly 'bad' antagonist for once (other than Zenos I guess), but she had no redeeming qualities until she lost her memory.

Fordola I frankly never understood. She was willing to lose everything to gain something I didn't think was worth it and would've been a hollow victory had she ever achieved it.

I usually love sympathetic antagonists, but thanks to ShB & EW I'm over it. I've no interest in continually being presented with conflicts where the opposition loses everything and the WoL/Scions don't even break a fingernail. It actually is starting to feel emotionally manipulative because the writers won't touch the protagonists, so the only way to get tears is to make the antagonists likeable and then take everything from them. Maybe Yotsuyu is one of the writers. ;P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I usually love sympathetic antagonists, but thanks to ShB & EW I'm over it. I've no interest in continually being presented with conflicts where the opposition loses everything and the WoL/Scions don't even break a fingernail. It actually is starting to feel emotionally manipulative because the writers won't touch the protagonists, so the only way to get tears is to make the antagonists likeable and then take everything from them. Maybe Yotsuyu is one of the writers. ;P

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This so much! It's why like, yes, im happy pandemonium is giving us some time with Elidibus because heavens know he deserved far more screentime than he got....but also hes dead. So theyre going to emotionally manipulate us, get us attached ot him and then oop, dont forget hes dead lul. Then you go back to the same familiar faces of the scions and its just...idk. For me personally, i find the "antagonists" so much more appealing and tolerable than the scions, so getting to have some time with them but then having them be taken away is such a horrible feeling. Which, we should be feeling for both sides. It's just such a one sided thing that its tiresome.We're always going to win, everyone is always going to be okay and the antagonists are always going to be the only ones to suffer.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I didn't view Thordan as bad. His intentions were good, but he was taking the authoritarian route to 'save' the world. The Garleans' weren't much different, many of them had the belief that to stop the threat of primals everything had to be under their rule.

Hard disagree about Yotsuyu. Her backstory may have been unfortunate, but she turned into a twisted individual who derived pleasure from torturing innocents. Don't get me wrong, I liked having a strictly 'bad' antagonist for once (other than Zenos I guess), but she had no redeeming qualities until she lost her memory.

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Thordan was dealt a very bad set of cards and I think he went ahead with what he saw as the most sensible way of resolving it once and for all. The fact that Varis saw him as a strong leader does suggest he was relatable to him.

As for Yotsuyu? I'll agree she's not that sympathetic, because she's a bit like Amon in that she relishes in spreading misery due to her own internal demons, but she had a really good stage presence which made her memorable. Given that they threw in Fandaniel to compound Amon's woes, I was a bit let down they didn't take the opportunity to add her to the trio of misery.

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I usually love sympathetic antagonists, but thanks to ShB & EW I'm over it. I've no interest in continually being presented with conflicts where the opposition loses everything and the WoL/Scions don't even break a fingernail. It actually is starting to feel emotionally manipulative because the writers won't touch the protagonists, so the only way to get tears is to make the antagonists likeable and then take everything from them. Maybe Yotsuyu is one of the writers. ;P

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Agreed. I also felt little desire to console Meteion. I fully understand Hermes was to blame for her predicament, but no thanks. Some option here would've been nice. It annoys me a bit because such options are mostly absent with antagonists I like better.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I didn't view Thordan as bad.

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Thordan had imo probably the least forced sympathetic backstory. He wasn't purely bad, but rather frustrated with the crappy hand has been dealt.

He had the misfortune of being born and raised into a position of leadership presiding over a nation built on deceit and betrayal, and he understood very well that Nidhogg had every right to feel the way that he did. He figured they would never be forgiven for his ancestors transgressions, and he couldn't afford to spill the beans on the true nature of this conflict and risk creating more Dravanian sympathizers out of his own numbers. So he took the easy way out and chose to wash his hands of all the baggage dumped on their generation by just killing all dragons and sparing anyone else from having to linger on this issue any longer.

Ilberd I feel is another really underappreciated one. Guy just wanted his land liberated from garlemalds clutches by any means neccessary and didnt care how history would remember him. His speech about Renouncing any attachment he may have had towards his discouraged countrymen and having no reservations over using their lives to fuel his rebellion still gives me chills.

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I usually love sympathetic antagonists, but thanks to ShB & EW I'm over it.

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I don't mind them usually, though I've never been a fan of excessive sympathy to the point where the story practically begs you to forgive them (literally every demon slayer villain). Emet, like Ilberd doesnt care what you think of him and doesnt ask for sympathy. But Hermes jumping from this incredibly compassionate man with an unparalleled lust for life to complete nihilist with the story painting him as a victim of his surroundings instead of the deranged madman he really is is really something.

I think FFVIIR handled its antagonists rather well. They're not written to conveniently fall into whatever trap is laid before them, nor do they lack for elements of friendship or loyalty towards one another - particularly in regards to Rufus and The Turks. The protagonists, meanwhile, aren't written to always be righteous and although they don't necessarily always fall into traps, they're often manipulated into doing things for the 'bad guys' in a way that makes sense whenever they let their emotions get the better of them.

I think FFXIV could learn a lot from previous games. As much as I like sympathetic and entertaining antagonists, I like seeing them earn the occasional victory far more than a constant string of defeats based on increasingly contrived scenarios. I fear FFXIV has become so caught up in trying to please everybody that it won't actually let anything bad or shocking happen to any character of note...unless they're an antagonist, which in turn leads to a rather predictable experience.

Not everybody playing the game sees the player character as themselves, either. So we're not all in need of seeing the Warrior of Light wrapped in cotton wool to spare him a dose of realism every now and then.

I'd like to see one of the Scions endure a fate similar to Valens. If we're meant to believe that suffering is a 'necessity' and that multiple worlds were wiped out because they couldn't handle it then it sure would be good to see the protagonists face some actual bleak scenarios from time to time that don't just revolve around them seeing bad things happen to throwaway characters or secondary figures temporarily elevated into the spotlight.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Telos apparently means purpose. Telomania means obsession with purpose. You're going to cause the universe to live on and there will be more pain and suffering and she's desperate to stop you.

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Telos just means end or completion, I don't think even in ancient Greek it meant purpose

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Telos just means end or completion, I don't think even in ancient Greek it meant purpose

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It can basically mean purpose (see for instance the word "teleology") in the same sense that the word "end" can imply a goal or purpose. So for example with the Telophoroi it was bringers of the end. With Meteion? It's probably the writers being clever and playing on the word's dual meaning, since Meteion was obsessed with finding purpose (since Hermes was), but then she is also the Endsinger, and also driven mad by the what she believed to be the inevitability of civilisational death and even the eventual end of the universe, both of which she helped accelerate, so obsessed with the end in that sense too.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It can basically mean purpose (see for instance the word "teleology") in the same sense that the word "end" can imply a goal or purpose. So for example with the Telophoroi it was bringers of the end. With Meteion? It's probably the writers being clever and playing on the word's dual meaning, since Meteion was obsessed with finding purpose (since Hermes was), but then she is also the Endsinger, and also driven mad by the what she believed to be the inevitability of civilisational death and even the eventual end of the universe, both of which she helped accelerate, so obsessed with the end in that sense too.

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I could see it, language is a pretty flexible thing

I thought this expansion had brilliant storytelling as did millions of others. Maybe you just have bad taste.

A not insignificant amount of people in the present day consume and approve of whatever is put before them. As such, fast food is amongst the most popular cuisine in the world. Yet one would not be incorrect to state that such fare simply does not compare to much of what is on offer elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Noire_Truthseeker

I thought this expansion had brilliant storytelling as did millions of others. Maybe you just have bad taste.

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The game barely has over a million players. So where are you getting these "millions"? Trying to gaslight people with this sort of tactic is in poor taste.

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Originally Posted by Noire_Truthseeker

I thought this expansion had brilliant storytelling as did millions of others. Maybe you just have bad taste.

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Consume product. Enjoy product. Wait for next product.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

I don't mind them usually, though I've never been a fan of excessive sympathy to the point where the story practically begs you to forgive them (literally every demon slayer villain). Emet, like Ilberd doesnt care what you think of him and doesnt ask for sympathy. But Hermes jumping from this incredibly compassionate man with an unparalleled lust for life to complete nihilist with the story painting him as a victim of his surroundings instead of the deranged madman he really is is really something.

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One of my complaints about EW is the amount of gaslighting with Hermes and Venat. I'm watching them both act in morally questionable to reprehensible ways, but the narrative is insisting they're good people we should like. A lot of the writing was extremely heavy handed this time and dialog options for the player to express anything negative were suspiciously lacking. It's been awhile since I've consumed media where I felt I was being told what to think and feel rather than the story itself bringing me to that conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

One of my complaints about EW is the amount of gaslighting with Hermes and Venat. I'm watching them both act in morally questionable to reprehensible ways, but the narrative is insisting they're good people we should like. A lot of the writing was extremely heavy handed this time and dialog options for the player to express anything negative were suspiciously lacking. It's been awhile since I've consumed media where I felt I was being told what to think and feel rather than the story itself bringing me to that conclusion.

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I really felt the undying love and devotion to Hydaelyn and Venat was especially heavy this expansion. I may be misremembering but I thought in ShB there was some question to whether or not Hydaelyn really is the benevolent goddess we believe or if we are just tempered by her to believe so, which if there was is immediately swept aside by constant reassurances that she is in fact just the most giving gracious and selfless entity ever known. I really felt let down by the story telling here when they went with the obvious Hydaelyn is the ultimate good vs the ultimate evil (Meteion in this case as our 11th hour evil).

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

One of my complaints about EW is the amount of gaslighting with Hermes and Venat. I'm watching them both act in morally questionable to reprehensible ways, but the narrative is insisting they're good people we should like. A lot of the writing was extremely heavy handed this time and dialog options for the player to express anything negative were suspiciously lacking. It's been awhile since I've consumed media where I felt I was being told what to think and feel rather than the story itself bringing me to that conclusion.

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Completely agree.

Bit of a tangent, but for anyone whose read Attack on Titan(Heavily recommend it btw), one thing I love about its story is how its careful not to take a hard stance on any side of its primary conflict through to the very end. It acknowledges that despite there being people that stand to benefit from genocide, whether the perpetrator is right or wrong for doing what they felt was necessary is ultimately up to the individual, and naturally, there is no shortage of people who would vilify them for it. Even when characters are spared from tragedy, they're capable of looking towards their savior and recognize that they're no saint but might in fact just be a monster that just happened to take their side.

The main protagonist (or antagonist depending on how you choose to view things) of that story is what I wanted Hydaelyn to become. I never wanted her to be the final big bad, nor did I expect it. What I wanted, NOT expected, but wanted was her to be was someone willing to go to extreme lengths to ensure we benefit from the world she cultivated, even if there are those who would brand her a devil for it. But instead, we get someone whose actions are excused by all, including by Emet who by all logic should've been furious that such crucial information has been withheld from them for seemingly no reason. It's one thing for him to accept loss, it's another for him to accept that this was the only way when we know for a fact that there was ATLEAST one other path that might've granted different results. Hydaelyn is a perpetrator of suffering and despair, but the sad part is that nobody other than her actually cares, and that's just boring.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I really felt the undying love and devotion to Hydaelyn and Venat was especially heavy this expansion. I may be misremembering but I thought in ShB there was some question to whether or not Hydaelyn really is the benevolent goddess we believe or if we are just tempered by her to believe so, which if there was is immediately swept aside by constant reassurances that she is in fact just the most giving gracious and selfless entity ever known. I really felt let down by the story telling here when they went with the obvious Hydaelyn is the ultimate good vs the ultimate evil (Meteion in this case as our 11th hour evil).

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You're not misremembering. Hydaelyn had been portrayed as shady since ARR when she told Minfilia to kill herself. It culminated in ShB when we discover she's a primal and responsible for destroying the Ancient world. EW honestly felt like they decided to subvert expectations. It's not that I thought Hydaelyn would ever be portrayed as pure evil, but I also never thought the opposite would be true and yet here we are.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

But instead, we get someone whose actions are excused by all, including by Emet who by all logic should've been furious that such crucial information has been withheld from them for seemingly no reason. It's one thing for him to accept loss, it's another for him to accept that this was the only way when we know for a fact that there was ATLEAST one other path that might've granted different results. Hydaelyn is a perpetrator of suffering and despair, but the sad part is that nobody other than her actually cares, and that's just boring.

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I still haven't finished AoT. I keep meaning to at some point. I left off somewhere in the Marley arc.

Venat essentially gets off the hook because the sundering had the added 'benefit' of memory loss, so there's conveniently no one left alive who remembers or cares to admonish her. Emet not condemning her seemed extremely out of character, especially after the Hades fight when he was anguished over the WoL using the power that destroyed their world.

I agree with the end point of the story and Venat's goal and philosophy. However, I will concede that how we got there was told quite poorly at points. I think this is due to practical issues, such as them shoving two expansions into one and truncating alot of plot. However, I also feel like in what we got never explores at length what point it's trying to make. The biggest example of this is Hermes. The point of his character is how individuality chaffs with the Ancient's collective norms and systems. However, due to how he was written just makes him appear little more than whining. Just like how Venat's writing comes off more aggressive than necessary when in practice her character and decisions were meant to, again, be at odds with the issues presented in Ancient wonder utopia communism.

I enjoyed the history, but this thread actually had a pretty good discussion. I also feel that the fact that FFXIV is a forever ongoing history doesn't help, the repetitiveness of certain plot devices really hit differently.

I thought it was average to above average. Don't really want anymore Ascians stuff.

Like it's great by mmorpg standards, but that's not exactly a high bar if you catch my drift. Also it more of a one and done thing. It's no chrono trigger that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Completely agree.

Bit of a tangent, but for anyone whose read Attack on Titan(Heavily recommend it btw), one thing I love about its story is how its careful not to take a hard stance on any side of its primary conflict through to the very end. It acknowledges that despite there being people that stand to benefit from genocide, whether the perpetrator is right or wrong for doing what they felt was necessary is ultimately up to the individual, and naturally, there is no shortage of people who would vilify them for it. Even when characters are spared from tragedy, they're capable of looking towards their savior and recognize that they're no saint but might in fact just be a monster that just happened to take their side.

The main protagonist (or antagonist depending on how you choose to view things) of that story is what I wanted Hydaelyn to become. I never wanted her to be the final big bad, nor did I expect it. What I wanted, NOT expected, but wanted was her to be was someone willing to go to extreme lengths to ensure we benefit from the world she cultivated, even if there are those who would brand her a devil for it. But instead, we get someone whose actions are excused by all, including by Emet who by all logic should've been furious that such crucial information has been withheld from them for seemingly no reason. It's one thing for him to accept loss, it's another for him to accept that this was the only way when we know for a fact that there was ATLEAST one other path that might've granted different results. Hydaelyn is a perpetrator of suffering and despair, but the sad part is that nobody other than her actually cares, and that's just boring.

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Same, I really enjoy AoT for that reason. As for Venat? I was expecting something along the lines of Yunalesca, not an outright villain and even a sympathetic character in many respects, but one insistent on a set of methods she wanted mankind to use... we did sort of get that, but the in-story characterisation of it, barring her own words (whereas with Yunalesca the party rather than herself rebuked her), did not live up.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Well, they lost the best writer in XIV for XVI to let someone who is apparently obsessed with trying to make people cry and power of friendship speeches... Yeah the old writer is still around but his involvement in ShB and EW is very minimal.

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Ishikawa has been incredibly disappointing which is a real shame considering how much the fandom desperately tries to hype her up. And yet the best thing she can do is deliver simpering tea parties and only put the apocalypse in two zones and can't even figure out how to threaten the Scions in a convincing way? Is this really what the entire fandom has been screaming and crying about for years as the most amazing Final Fantasy writer in existence? Someone who wants to make us have tea parties?

I'm sorry but she's such a disappointment. Endwalker really could have been something but instead we got a wet blanket of an expansion. Imagine what could have been if this were in the hands of the Heavensward guy.

In unrelated news, I am greatly looking forward to FF16! Can't explain why.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

This point is actually kinda interesting cuz it ties into one specific issue I have in regard to stakes in Endwalker. I've seen others defend the Ultima Thule segment claiming that death was never the point to begin with and that the scions have already reached their "final forms," having long conquered the source of their own despair. This same argument is also used to defend the deceptively tame nature of the Final days that we experienced. But this defense is precisely why I find the conflict this time around to be fairly weak. When working with a setting that has been long stripped of the root of its despair, why hand the main antagonist of your final arc a weapon specifically designed to target, and exploit said despair? If nearly everyone in your story is bulletproof, why give the bad guy a gun?

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Because they chickened out. I mean, I dragged one specific person already in this post but let's face it, Endwalker was a group effort. It takes a lot of people to make a story like that where it has some really good parts! ...but then utterly collapses in on itself. It's not even that bad but it's also not good either, it's in a frustrating mediocre valley.

I paid money for this, guys. I paid money for this. Otherwise I might not be so put out.

I also paid for the expansion and really enjoyed it :p It was a good ending for the story arc in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

I also paid for the expansion and really enjoyed it :p It was a good ending for the story arc in my opinion.

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Same here. Bought the collectors edition since 1.0. Love the stories of each.

6.0 for me felt a bit rushed and short but is still a very good ending to the arc that started since 1.0. So excited for 6.1 and where they will take our adventurer.

One thing that I hoped towards the end but did not materialize was for our respective job trainers to at lest make an appearance to help us. I was hoping that as we were making our way towards the end and a lot of people are helping us that our trainers would make an appearance to help. Like if I am using ninja then Oboro will ride with me on the ship to help his former student and comrade or appear at the end summoned like Emet and Hylo haha. I want to believe that while we may have surpassed our trainers that they are still very strong in their own right :)

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Originally Posted by Rise-chu

I paid money for this, guys. I paid money for this. Otherwise I might not be so put out.

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I’m upset i bought a 60 day sub for it lmao.

I dunno I thought it was incredible.

I feel kinda disillusioned with the '' mainstream '' where games like GoW and TLOU or even HZD are put up on a pedestal as '' the greats '' of game story-telling, if they were movies they'd be average at best and they try too hard to be '' artsy '' imo.
Ultimately they're incredibly beyond generic and indulge very heavily in extremely tired movie tropes ( the sad dad thing in particular ), to some extent EW did have the sad dad thing too but it was definitely not the same thing at all.
It's even a thing game directors will brag about how '' we're doing what movies do, wow look at us with our movie scripts and one cut ''.
It's the same with AoT which gets brought up too I have no clue why people act like it's revolutionary the same themes and story have been done to death.
I kinda feel like if something is sad and brooding + blood and gore with dramatic music with vocals going '' OOoAOOOOoAAAAAAAAaAAAAAAH '' and/ or a kid and parent people will treat it like art.

Same with female characters, all it takes is for them to be frumpy and modest and people will act like they're top tier best female character ever created and written.
I feel like people are extremely shallow about this and how they judge stories and characters ( I've seen this a lot with Aloy and Mikasa it's so transparent and often they'll even admit it ).

I still think that what Venat did was kinda messed up I don't think it's meant to be a 100% good thing but more of a necessary evil ( there's a lot of comparisons to God people can make too, and how religious people have to adress the question why suffering exists ).
I also don't think that everything needs to be grey, we've already had grey villains and heroes in FFXIV it's fine to have more straight forward stuff too and ultimately it's kinda necessary for a position to be taken in a game like this.
FFXIV could be said to be a bit of a soap opera too like the rest but I don't feel like it's so unapologetically generic about it at least.
I think EW was very bold and took very big risks that I honestly wasn't sure about at first but had a huge payoff, and I also appreciate that it made me cry for other reasons than just '' wow it's so sad '' I felt a lot of different emotions at the same time most of it was happy tears.

It's not for everyone nothing will be liked by everyone.
But damn does it deserve its praise so much more than the other big titles people put up on a pedestal.
Same goes for Anime too all it takes is good animation and wow best thing ever created apparently.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

snip

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I think the difference is, for me i’m not really a fan of GoW but i can tell when they put a lot of effort into its story or surroundings etc and that was something that was lacking for me in EW. It felt to me like they just wanted to rush it all out and were already tired of the expansion. The extreme pacing issues,plethora of dropped plot points,and theme contradictions seem to point this way very well.A lot of the time it felt like i was playing a slice of life anime game which…is kind of bad considering it’s supposed to be an expansion focused on a world shattering apocalypse. I also think 14 is pretty artsy and mainstream like those other games you mentioned. A large portion of the playerbase regards the game as perfect and best mmo story, best video game story period etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I dunno I thought it was incredible.

I feel kinda disillusioned with the '' mainstream '' where games like GoW and TLOU or even HZD are put up on a pedestal as '' the greats '' of game story-telling, if they were movies they'd be average at best and they try too hard to be '' artsy '' imo.
Ultimately they're incredibly beyond generic and indulge very heavily in extremely tired movie tropes ( the sad dad thing in particular ), to some extent EW did have the sad dad thing too but it was definitely not the same thing at all.
It's even a thing game directors will brag about how '' we're doing what movies do, wow look at us with our movie scripts and one cut ''.
It's the same with AoT which gets brought up too I have no clue why people act like it's revolutionary the same themes and story have been done to death.
I kinda feel like if something is sad and brooding + blood and gore with dramatic music with vocals going '' OOoAOOOOoAAAAAAAAaAAAAAAH '' and/ or a kid and parent people will treat it like art.

Same with female characters, all it takes is for them to be frumpy and modest and people will act like they're top tier best female character ever created and written.
I feel like people are extremely shallow about this and how they judge stories and characters ( I've seen this a lot with Aloy and Mikasa it's so transparent and often they'll even admit it ).

I still think that what Venat did was kinda messed up I don't think it's meant to be a 100% good thing but more of a necessary evil ( there's a lot of comparisons to God people can make too, and how religious people have to adress the question why suffering exists ).
I also don't think that everything needs to be grey, we've already had grey villains and heroes in FFXIV it's fine to have more straight forward stuff too and ultimately it's kinda necessary for a position to be taken in a game like this.
FFXIV could be said to be a bit of a soap opera too like the rest but I don't feel like it's so unapologetically generic about it at least.
I think EW was very bold and took very big risks that I honestly wasn't sure about at first but had a huge payoff, and I also appreciate that it made me cry for other reasons than just '' wow it's so sad '' I felt a lot of different emotions at the same time most of it was happy tears.

It's not for everyone nothing will be liked by everyone.
But damn does it deserve its praise so much more than the other big titles people put up on a pedestal.
Same goes for Anime too all it takes is good animation and wow best thing ever created apparently.

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Watch Guin Saga, Record of Lodoss War, Berserk and Legend of Arslan. Very good animes. Wish they would update Record of Lodoss War to modern anime like they did with Legend of Arslan :)

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Originally Posted by Garet

Watch Guin Saga, Record of Lodoss War, Berserk and Legend of Arslan. Very good animes. Wish they would update Record of Lodoss War to modern anime like they did with Legend of Arslan :)

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Oh man, I haven't seen anyone mention Legend of Arslan in years. I haven't seen the remake, but I loved the original. RG Veda was also fantastic, but unfortunately the anime was never completed.

i find it OK, good for mmo standard, but really mediocore for rpg/books/movie standard...

don't like how they suddenly bring up meteion and make her a last boss, i don't even pity her because the time we spend together is pnly a few hour... bit that's all that bugs me

the worst part is how people who like it treat it like a godly story and refuse to disscuss whats good and bad, because to them yoshida and ishikawa is god that can't make any mistake

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Oh man, I haven't seen anyone mention Legend of Arslan in years. I haven't seen the remake, but I loved the original. RG Veda was also fantastic, but unfortunately the anime was never completed.

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I still prefer the art and tone of the original Arslan but the remake did go a bit further than the original on the story :) I do hope that if they do a remake of the Record of Lodoss War that they do maintain the original character's tone and characteristic more faithfully.

Just for Nostalgia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohw1dkJYNMY

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Originally Posted by Miminming

don't like how they suddenly bring up meteion and make her a last boss, i don't even pity her because the time we spend together is pnly a few hour... bit that's all that bugs me

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Yeah I think the general consensus is that Meteion was shoehorned in a little too suddenly to be a convincing last boss for the game. Also, dynamis is pretty silly.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I feel kinda disillusioned with the '' mainstream '' where games like GoW and TLOU or even HZD are put up on a pedestal as '' the greats '' of game story-telling, if they were movies they'd be average at best, and they try too hard to be '' artsy '' imo.

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I mean, if you're really into narrative games, I don't think you would put these on a pedestal regardless. But I agree that if we're comparing these triple AAA games that get praised to oblivion, then yes, FFXIV storytelling is indeed better suited to my tastes (even though the anime tropes can get old fast).

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Yeah I think the general consensus is that Meteion was shoehorned in a little too suddenly to be a convincing last boss for the game. Also, dynamis is pretty silly.

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General consensus of the forums anyway. Plenty of others have enjoyed the story and Meteion (who to me wasn't actually the last boss... she was just representative of the whole despair vs hope theme that has been going since day 1). To me, EW was less about saving the world and more about how the characters you've been with since the beginning have grown. If players aren't fond of the Scions, which some have outright stated they dont like, it's not going to land as well.

On the topic of why EW might be disappointing for some, I would also point a finger at ShB. While beloved by many, I feel its story kind of wrote the narrative into a corner it really couldn't get itself out of. It also kind of jumped the shark in alot of ways. SB and HW were way better structured overall.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

General consensus of the forums anyway. Plenty of others have enjoyed the story and Meteion (who to me wasn't actually the last boss... she was just representative of the whole despair vs hope theme that has been going since day 1). To me, EW was less about saving the world and more about how the characters you've been with since the beginning have grown. If players aren't fond of the Scions, which some have outright stated they dont like, it's not going to land as well.

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Just because it’s the forums that’s talking out about it more doesn’t make it any less relevant though. The main reason it may be spoken about more here is because twitter/reddit is a much more toxic environment to state opinions than an official forum page that is (somewhat) moderated. The problem with EW being “less about saving the word” is that this isn’t how it was advertised or built up at all. Especially if you read up on Yoshi p’s interviews or statements pre expansion. As for the whole scion thing, i think the scions growing thing is a bit hit or miss. For example Yshtola was hardly an afterthought in this entire expansion.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

On the topic of why EW might be disappointing for some, I would also point a finger at ShB. While beloved by many, I feel its story kind of wrote the narrative into a corner it really couldn't get itself out of. It also kind of jumped the shark in alot of ways. SB and HW were way better structured overall.

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Yes. The more I think about it the more I think Shadowbringers should have been the climax since the devs refused to give us an expansion where we get more involved with the Garlean Civil War. The thing is you don't even have to eject Emet Selch to give us a Garlemald: Civil War expansion, he could be folded into it very easily and still be his charming self. So we wouldn't have lost anything important from Shadowbringers!

Instead Shadowbringers gave us silly time travel, a very boring antagonist in the form of Vauthry, introduced a lot of lore that completely derailed the fascinating build up to Garlemald and now...we have this.

Tea parties and standing in fields of flowers to defeat the villain. Well, okay.

Perhaps it could've worked. I think part of it is that Yoshida wanted to do a more high fantasy rendition of Eorzea. But in the end, while I enjoyed SHB, I wasn't all that satisfied with how few differences there were between two worlds which drastically differed in aether density (they've been quite emphatic that this can have drastic effects on locations in the world) and also had very different passage of time. With that said, a Garlean civil war expansion, making full use of Varis and Elidibus (and I suppose... Zenos), and Emet-Selch picking up the next expansion, eventually culminating in driving back the cause of the Final Days (with something a bit less lame than bird girl as the ultimate cause... I still would've liked something styled after Lavos or Jenova better), I could see working.

IMO, part of the issue is that they probably regretted some plot aspects seeded into SHB and so had to find a way to untether themselves from them, so if you followed SHB closely, some of it comes across strangely (mainly referring to the cause of the dispute between Venat's faction and the other ancients here... EW handles this quite differently in its montage.) EW still could've picked up where SHB left off had it chosen different narrative devices (e.g. using the echo to peer into the past), but what killed it for me was the time travel and forced nature of the narrative that went with it...

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

General consensus of the forums anyway.

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Given the number of threads that have dozens of pages arguing back and forth about whether or not people liked the story, I don't think you can say there is a "consensus" on the forums either.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

i find it OK, good for mmo standard, but really mediocore for rpg/books/movie standard...

don't like how they suddenly bring up meteion and make her a last boss, i don't even pity her because the time we spend together is pnly a few hour... bit that's all that bugs me

the worst part is how people who like it treat it like a godly story and refuse to disscuss whats good and bad, because to them yoshida and ishikawa is god that can't make any mistake

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Players here will maul you the moment you say anything bad about this game.
EW is way less enjoyable, story-wise than SHB to me, I actually put it below SB if you ignore the Ala Mhigo part, which was really badly handled.

EW suffers from terrible pacing issues that should have been told across the entire expansion. I found it hilarious when we had the Forum people in the game say the sky is about to fall, you had a NPC literally ask "How long do we have?" the response, "Soon tm" then that night you choose your lover to come to see you, the next day all hell broke loose but no one really seems like they're in a panic and the rest of Eorzea is chilling.

Pacing, pacing, pacing. I'm still sorely disappointed how Garelmeld was held and the Moon too. Hopefully the next patches redeem itself because EW is not that great to me by any means.
Not to mention Meteion who was shoehorned. Sorry, I did not care about Hermes' love doll going evil or how Zenos had fook all to do with anything. I hope he's gone for good.

I'd say from best to worst in story expansions:
SHB > HW > SB > EW > ARR.
SB was saved for me because Doma/Steppes were actually a really good arcs. To hell with Ala Mhigo lol.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

Pacing, pacing, pacing. I'm still sorely disappointed how Garelmeld was held and the Moon too. Hopefully the next patches redeem itself because EW is not that great to me by any means.
Not to mention Meteion who was shoehorned. Sorry, I did not care about Hermes' love doll going evil or how Zenos had fook all to do with anything. I hope he's gone for good.

I'd say from best to worst in story expansions:
SHB > HW > SB > EW > ARR.
SB was saved for me because Doma/Steppes were actually a really good arcs. To hell with Ala Mhigo lol.

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I actually enjoyed Garlemald. As far as the moon goes...I definitely thought we got there way too easy, but seeing all the souls aimlessly wandering was sad to see. Then it felt like you blinked and we were fighting Zodiark. The pacing after this just didn't make sense to me.

For story I actually put HW slightly over Shb so my story list would be HW > SHB > EW > SB > ARR but for gameplay I'd have to say I had the most fun in Stormblood; I greatly enjoyed Omega, the trials and the Ivalice Raids and had some of the best times I've ever had in this game during that time.