Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

So everyone saw that rework of Ultima Weapon, I take it? Estinien vs Ultima Weapon 2.0?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Zenos will most likely admit to the death of his father. Who can match him in power in Garlemald? Nobody. No one would dare challenge his authority, so they'll all follow out of fear of him. It won't be until some unseen event occurs that they will turn on him. I have a feeling the Populares however, will turn to Eorzea for help defeating him.

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That's not how power works. Achilles might have been an invincible warrior but the Greeks followed Agamemnon. People don't look to the thugs for leadership at the national level outside of fiction. Nearly everyone in the Empire would have cause to oppose Zenos, especially out of fear. If he'll betray the Empire and murder the Emperor, then nobody is safe.

Zenos glowing with darkness in the trailer scares me. I seriously hope he didn't eat Zodiark, I want the Zodiark fight to actually be a Zodiark fight and not Zenos for like the fifth time.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

So everyone saw that rework of Ultima Weapon, I take it? Estinien vs Ultima Weapon 2.0?

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Is that what he was fighting? I couldn't tell.

Probably a solo duty.

I'm still not 'feeling' Zenos. In my opinion he simply overstayed his welcome and risks cutting down a string of characters with much more depth and potential. He's already eliminated Varis, I don't really want to see him deal with Elidibus and/or Zodiark as well. Like Varis those two have been built up since the days of ARR.

That aside, my initial thoughts on the 5.1 trailer are fairly lukewarm. The new dungeon intrigues me and reminds me very much of Karazhan from WoW due to the ghostly figures indulging in a waltz. I'm guessing the mage we meet will be a new character introduced to the plot. Hopefully it's a legitimately new character rather than, say, a reflection of Matoya or Louisoix.

As much as I like Nier: Automata I'm a little wary of it having so much focus. I'm concerned that 'Rule of Cool' is being embraced more and more frequently which is something that pushed me away from WoW.

The line about the 'risks' for our friends - presumably the Scions - made me smirk because at this point it's clear that the story plays things very safe. I'm comfortable suggesting that nothing bad will happen to them and even if it does, it'll be resolved almost immediately. At worst, I predict that Thancred will be forced to stay behind since he can no longer manipulate aether but even that will work out if it means he can stay at Ryne's side.

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's not how power works. Achilles might have been an invincible warrior but the Greeks followed Agamemnon. People don't look to the thugs for leadership at the national level outside of fiction. Nearly everyone in the Empire would have cause to oppose Zenos, especially out of fear. If he'll betray the Empire and murder the Emperor, then nobody is safe.

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Outside of republics and democracies, that is entirely how power works. lol If you have the might behind you, you get to be in charge. IRL that might means being the strongest/most ruthless individual in some setups, and means having the right connections and political alliances in others, depending on the society. In fantasy games, its being invincible. If you are unable to be opposed, you are unable to be opposed. The people you are dominating don't have to like you for you to be in charge.

Also, in your example, 1. Achilles didn't want to be in charge of everyone. And 2. Agamemnon had the might of his political savvy behind him, in addition to being a respectable enough fighter. Neither were commanding through fear, but that's just b/c they didn't need to/want to. Its still an entirely viable path to take. They just didn't.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Is that what he was fighting? I couldn't tell.

Probably a solo duty.

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It's definitely a headless Ultima Weapon, which may have some interesting ramifications; Garlemald working to mass produce them? Heart of Sabik back again? Who knows. Seems Estinien attacks/destroys it, though.

I think we gonna fight as Estinien in a solo duty. I don't know but for love of God, please, I hope Zenos won't kill Gaius. I'm afraid because - why Estinien is alone in a fight? Do he run away from Zenos to call for help the WoL ? But if that so, Gaius is alone against Zenos (? maybe). With both of them, I'm sure they could manage to escape without so much problem but alone...

Didn't I see somewhere recently (one of the Q/As maybe?) that they might get more into the Hear of Sabik in the future? Given Elidibus' up-until-recent involvement with Garlemald, I don't think it would have been impossible for him to have recovered the Heart at some point and worked to repurpose it for a new model of Ultima Weapon. Of course, it could just be a reverse-engineered version of UW that the empire was working on, probably in hopes of mass-producing them in the future. As for Gaius, I'm sure I saw him in a different scene in the trailer. It's possible he and Estinien had to split up to handle different objectives at some point, so I wouldn't count Gaius out just yet. I still have a feeling he'll probably end up surviving so he can help to rebuild and reform Garlemald after Elidibus and Zenos are dealt with, maybe even becoming the nation's new leader in time.

As for the MSQ, the impression I get aside from the Garlean sections is that Eulmore has to come to terms with what they need to do to survive post-Vauthry, and also at some point, as others seem to have figured, we go to the new dungeon to locate the Nu Mou mage in hopes of finding a way to return the Scions to the Source. I can only guess that the voice saying we might doom our friends instead of saving them is that mage, and I agree that it's also probably in reference to fixing things with the Scions. What this process entails though I could only speculate on, though.

Don't have much to add for the Nier section as yet, since I'm actually in the process of playing Nier Automata now that I'm finally putting some time aside to do so (I'm really enjoying it so far!). I'm still intrigued how they'll tie that game into the FFXIV lore context, but it definitely seems the Dwarves are involved somehow as well as that machine graveyard.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Zenos glowing with darkness in the trailer scares me. I seriously hope he didn't eat Zodiark, I want the Zodiark fight to actually be a Zodiark fight and not Zenos for like the fifth time.

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I took that more as a suggestion that he's basically an Ascian at this point.

The fact that he gained his artificial Echo partly by being infused with the aether of countless individuals would logically put him in a state closer to that of an Ancient.

Still, I seriously doubt he's going to actually take control of Zodiark or Hydaelyn because even in their weakened states they're still unimaginably powerful compared to a conventional Primal like Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Outside of republics and democracies, that is entirely how power works. lol If you have the might behind you, you get to be in charge. IRL that might means being the strongest/most ruthless individual in some setups, and means having the right connections and political alliances in others, depending on the society. In fantasy games, its being invincible. If you are unable to be opposed, you are unable to be opposed. The people you are dominating don't have to like you for you to be in charge.

Also, in your example, 1. Achilles didn't want to be in charge of everyone. And 2. Agamemnon had the might of his political savvy behind him, in addition to being a respectable enough fighter. Neither were commanding through fear, but that's just b/c they didn't need to/want to. Its still an entirely viable path to take. They just didn't.

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That's my point. Zenos is physically strong but as politically weak as a kitten. He's the governor of 2 provinces that are under enemy control, there are rumors that he's actually dead or the puppet of foreign influences, he's infamous for having no interest in administration and for how he was disinherited out of the line of succession. National Leaders aren't chosen by how much they can bench press.

Zenos is so politically weak, nearly any military leader can make viable bid to be Emperorship now, and Zenos wont have time to personally slay every member of the rebel armies and even if he did, he would have just demolished the military strengthen of the Empire to get the throne. Though personally I don't think the writers will go down this path.

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's my point. Zenos is physically strong but as politically weak as a kitten. He's the governor of 2 provinces that are under enemy control, there are rumors that he's actually dead or the puppet of foreign influences, he's infamous for having no interest in administration and for how he was disinherited out of the line of succession. National Leaders aren't chosen by how much they can bench press.

Zenos is so politically weak, nearly any military leader can make viable bid to be Emperorship now, and Zenos wont have time to personally slay every member of the rebel armies and even if he did, he would have just demolished the military strengthen of the Empire to get the throne. Though personally I don't think the writers will go down this path.

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While the rumors swirling around him might be a dent, as far as we know Zenos was never formally disowned by Varis, so he would be the legitimate heir to the Garlean throne. He said he wasn't interested in assuming it, but if it gets him a fight with us quicker I'd see Zenos taking it up to draw us out. And while modern folk might not be terribly interested in following a bloodthirsty tyrant, Garlemald has quite a lot of warrior culture, so while the Populares will likely oppose him the Optimates probably would not...

I mean, the man beat down an Ascian in his own body, using a borrowed corpse so effectively said Ascian (a nigh-immortal, immensely powerful sorcerer) decided to get the heck out of dodge. He singlehandedly turned the tide of a war. If anybody opposes him Zenos could probably kill them pretty easily; the number of people able to go toe-to-toe with him and live to tell the tale can be counted on one hand.

I thought there wasn't an actual fight between Elidibus and Zenos, Elidibus basically just spilled the beans and booked it. I recall Zenos lamenting this because he wanted to fight his own body.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While the rumors swirling around him might be a dent, as far as we know Zenos was never formally disowned by Varis, so he would be the legitimate heir to the Garlean throne. He said he wasn't interested in assuming it, but if it gets him a fight with us quicker I'd see Zenos taking it up to draw us out. And while modern folk might not be terribly interested in following a bloodthirsty tyrant, Garlemald has quite a lot of warrior culture, so while the Populares will likely oppose him the Optimates probably would not...

I mean, the man beat down an Ascian in his own body, using a borrowed corpse so effectively said Ascian (a nigh-immortal, immensely powerful sorcerer) decided to get the heck out of dodge. He singlehandedly turned the tide of a war. If anybody opposes him Zenos could probably kill them pretty easily; the number of people able to go toe-to-toe with him and live to tell the tale can be counted on one hand.

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That's not a given. Zenos was never formally named heir and given Zeno's military track record, I'm not sure Optimates would be enthused at seeing all the provinces of the Empire handed to the enemy on a silver platter like Zeno's provinces were. Zenos might make a good champion of the Empire, but that doesn't mean the Otimates would want to make him their leader as well. The Optimates don't need to give him a crown to beat up the Empire's enemies and if Zenos keeps attacking the Empire, then he's no good for the Empire.

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Originally Posted by Edax

/snip...Zenos was never formally named heir.../snip

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Are you 100% sure about that? For some reason I was under the impression that formally naming Zenos his heir was one of the first things Varis did to consolidate his power as Emperor after the War of Succession.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I thought there wasn't an actual fight between Elidibus and Zenos, Elidibus basically just spilled the beans and booked it. I recall Zenos lamenting this because he wanted to fight his own body.

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While musing to himself up on the moon Elidibus says that Zenos was able to defeat him, despite having the latter's body with all its "uncanny strength." This, and his new inability to properly conduct events going forward, convinced Elidibus to tell Zenos everything we learned about the true nature of the world in 5.0 and then book it.

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's not a given. Zenos was never formally named heir and given Zeno's military track record, I'm not sure Optimates would be enthused at seeing all the provinces of the Empire handed to the enemy on a silver platter like Zeno's provinces were. Zenos might make a good champion of the Empire, but that doesn't mean the Otimates would want to make him their leader as well. The Optimates don't need to give him a crown to beat up the Empire's enemies and if Zenos keeps attacking the Empire, then he's no good for the Empire.

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One of the first things Varis did after assuming the throne was to name Zenos his heir specifically to avoid a succession crisis like the civil war he had to fight against his uncle to claim it. He does say later that he never intended to actually let Zenos on the throne, but I take this to mean that Varis only named him successor as a placeholder until a more suitable candidate could be found.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Are you 100% sure about that? For some reason I was under the impression that formally naming Zenos his heir was one of the first things Varis did to consolidate his power as Emperor after the War of Succession.

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The wiki says he's heir apparent so I'm probably wrong about that, so I take that back.

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's my point. Zenos is physically strong but as politically weak as a kitten. He's the governor of 2 provinces that are under enemy control, there are rumors that he's actually dead or the puppet of foreign influences, he's infamous for having no interest in administration and for how he was disinherited out of the line of succession. National Leaders aren't chosen by how much they can bench press.

Zenos is so politically weak, nearly any military leader can make viable bid to be Emperorship now, and Zenos wont have time to personally slay every member of the rebel armies and even if he did, he would have just demolished the military strengthen of the Empire to get the throne. Though personally I don't think the writers will go down this path.

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Isnt Garlemald whole motto that being powerful gives you the right to rule? And if that is the case then Zenos should have no problems because he was just simply more powerful and if people even did not go against Varis I doubt they would raise their weapons against someone that is known to show no mercy and that plays in a whole other league.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Are you 100% sure about that? For some reason I was under the impression that formally naming Zenos his heir was one of the first things Varis did to consolidate his power as Emperor after the War of Succession.

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Yes that is the case which is also why Elidibus took over Zenos body because Zenos being truly death might have started another war of succession which they did not want at that time.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The wiki says he's heir apparent so I'm probably wrong about that, so I take that back.

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I wouldn't go by the wiki for information much but it was mentioned in one maybe two of the cutscenes that he was named Heir to, as other have said, to stop the war of succession from occurring again. Cant remember if it was the scions (though that's who I'm leaning more towards. I could swear I remember it being said by Thancred again I could be wrong. ) that said it or it was Varis or maybe both in two different cutscenes.

Welp, if he really is heir apparent then I don't think the circumstances of his ascension are going to necessarily matter that much (Outside of potentially drawing the ire of a significant portion of the populace).

I really expect Garlemald to just become his plaything to fuel his selfish desires by the time 5.x nears its close.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I wouldn't go by the wiki for information much but it was mentioned in one maybe two of the cutscenes that he was named Heir to, as other have said, to stop the war of succession from occurring again. Cant remember if it was the scions (though that's who I'm leaning more towards. I could swear I remember it being said by Thancred again I could be wrong. ) that said it or it was Varis or maybe both in two different cutscenes.

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Yes, Thancred mentions the appointment of Zenos as heir during the second 'The Call' cutscene:
"It is no coincidence that one of Varis's first acts as Emperor was to name Zenos heir apparent - family feuds being so tiresome when armies are involved. Not all welcomed his choice of successor, however."

Thank you Scintilla. I'm glad my memory isnt failing me just yet. I couldn't double check it due to being at work (graveyard shifts are so fun) and I could have sworn it was Thancred. Thanks again ^_^

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's my point. Zenos is physically strong but as politically weak as a kitten. He's the governor of 2 provinces that are under enemy control, there are rumors that he's actually dead or the puppet of foreign influences, he's infamous for having no interest in administration and for how he was disinherited out of the line of succession. National Leaders aren't chosen by how much they can bench press.

Zenos is so politically weak, nearly any military leader can make viable bid to be Emperorship now, and Zenos wont have time to personally slay every member of the rebel armies and even if he did, he would have just demolished the military strengthen of the Empire to get the throne. Though personally I don't think the writers will go down this path.

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Sorry. I probably should have put "functioning" republics and democracies. The empire is theoretically a monarchy with an advisory senate, from what I understand. Its not exactly a will of the people kind of setup, but its something that requires a normal man to be politically savvy in some fashion to achieve/maintain power. But that's b/c there are other people/groups in the system that can be a threat to you/your power if you don't handle them well. In this case, Zenos breaks that, b/c no one but a group of roughly 8 adventurers but the WoL is a threat to him. Maybe, if enough people were willing to die to get him, others could take him down. But they'd have to be some Badass Normals at this point, from what we've been shown. And quite a few of them, at that. Zenos has bypassed the usual checks on power b/c he's personally much stronger than anyone those checks could handle.

Their only saving grace is he doesn't particularly want power or to rule, so he'll likely just use the resources towards his own relatively narrow goals, and leave most of the country to languish. Which from the average garlean's perspective is bad, but I say count your blessings, guys.

...Unless (being as spoiler-free as possible here), he decides to take a page from FF15 in his pursuit of his goals. Then they're all screwed.

But yeah, there aren't OP supermen in the real world, so power doesn't work like that irl beyond pure warrior cultures, which are usually small and not something we'd consider a modern nation-state. But its completely consistent that power works like this in FF14's setting b/c there ARE OP supermen. Democaracy inevitably breaks when the populace is outgunned by those that seek to be tyrants.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

But yeah, there aren't OP supermen in the real world, so power doesn't work like that irl beyond pure warrior cultures, which are usually small and not something we'd consider a modern nation-state. But its completely consistent that power works like this in FF14's setting b/c there ARE OP supermen. Democaracy inevitably breaks when the populace is outgunned by those that seek to be tyrants.

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And Black Rose was the great equalizer, destroying even the Warrior of Light. Any Imperial Command who controls the remaining Black Rose stockpiles can resist Zenos at will. Tyrants don't gain loyalist out of fear, but of mutual interest and Zenos self-centered personality makes him politically weak since it's in almost no one's mutual interest to ally with an incompetent military leader and inept administrator. I'm not even sure Zeno's body hopping would work if subjected to Black Rose.

Black Rose is uncontrollable. Gassing the capitol isn't a viable option for someone who hates Zenos b/c he threatens the empire's interests. Or their own interests, which involve running the empire themselves. Though, sure, they could wait till he's out of town and hit him in a remote area and pray it works as planned.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be assassination attempts. Tyrants often field those. I was simply pointing out before that taking over when you have enough might to back you is what Zenos did and exactly how power works, as a response to your statement that it doesn't work like that. Niehter of us mentioned anything before about how long his rule would actually last.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Black Rose is uncontrollable. Gassing the capitol isn't a viable option for someone who hates Zenos b/c he threatens the empire's interests. Or their own interests, which involve running the empire themselves. Though, sure, they could wait till he's out of town and hit him in a remote area and pray it works as planned.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be assassination attempts. Tyrants often field those. I was simply pointing out before that taking over when you have enough might to back you is what Zenos did and exactly how power works, as a response to your statement that it doesn't work like that. Niehter of us mentioned anything before about how long his rule would actually last.

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Gassing the capital may entirely be a viable option. I don't know what the range is of Black Rose but it could conceivably just be a single canister in one room in the palace that would be enough to stop Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Gassing the capital may entirely be a viable option. I don't know what the range is of Black Rose but it could conceivably just be a single canister in one room in the palace that would be enough to stop Zenos.

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Except as was shown, one canister was all it took for Black Rose to go out of the Empire's control. A substance that essentially destroys Aether (which the entire world is formed from) would be uncontrollable and wouldn't be able to be gotten rid of by normal means. Normal gas? Enough of a breeze or wind would dissipate it. But something that destroys Aether, would not be fazed by wind, because IT WOULD DESTROY THE WIND ITSELF.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Except as was shown, one canister was all it took for Black Rose to go out of the Empire's control. A substance that essentially destroys Aether (which the entire world is formed from) would be uncontrollable and wouldn't be able to be gotten rid of by normal means. Normal gas? Enough of a breeze or wind would dissipate it. But something that destroys Aether, would not be fazed by wind, because IT WOULD DESTROY THE WIND ITSELF.

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But didn't the victims of Black Rose get personally inspected and thus implying that it does dissipate?

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Originally Posted by Edax

But didn't the victims of Black Rose get personally inspected and thus implying that it does dissipate?

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Are you talking about the encampment that Gaius and Alphinaud investigated?

Remember that the END OF THE WORLD Black Rose gas from the Crystal Exarch's timeline was supercharged by the light Aether flooding into the world due to the successful Calamity reabsorbing the First Shard. That stuff may work differently from the Black Rose we've seen used in the "real" timeline. It apparently maintained its potency for two hundred years, still causing problems at the time when the Ironworks staff gave up the world as a lost cause and started the Exarch on his journey.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Are you talking about the encampment that Gaius and Alphinaud investigated?

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Yes

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Remember that the END OF THE WORLD Black Rose gas from the Crystal Exarch's timeline was supercharged by the light Aether flooding into the world due to the successful Calamity reabsorbing the First Shard. That stuff may work differently from the Black Rose we've seen used in the "real" timeline. It apparently maintained its potency for two hundred years, still causing problems at the time when the Ironworks staff gave up the world as a lost cause and started the Exarch on his journey.

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So Black Rose can't kill Zenos?

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Originally Posted by Edax

So Black Rose can't kill Zenos?

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Probably not anymore, not so much because it's not supercharged anymore, more because Zenos can apparently just hop into a new body whenever he "dies".

Gets Black Rosed, hops into a corpse, gives his dead body a bit of a jiggle, hops back in.

Auracite it is.

The lesser Ascians cannot sustain themselves without immediate access to a replacement body, while the overlords can freely exist without one and can overtake living hosts.

In Zenos' case he's always had empty replacements readily at hand so it's hard to say just how immortal he actually is.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Probably not anymore, not so much because it's not supercharged anymore, more because Zenos can apparently just hop into a new body whenever he "dies".

Gets Black Rosed, hops into a corpse, gives his dead body a bit of a jiggle, hops back in.

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I am out of the country at the moment and cannot rewatch cutscenes at the moment. Is it confirmed that Black Rose does not destroy aether in it's current state? If it does destroy aether, that should prevent any body hopping.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I am out of the country at the moment and cannot rewatch cutscenes at the moment. Is it confirmed that Black Rose does not destroy aether in it's current state? If it does destroy aether, that should prevent any body hopping.

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Black Rose doesnt destroy aether, rather it causes it to 'coagulate' and 'stop', which is similar to the effects of Light on aether, and why Black Rose was amplified by the 8th umbral Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I am out of the country at the moment and cannot rewatch cutscenes at the moment. Is it confirmed that Black Rose does not destroy aether in it's current state? If it does destroy aether, that should prevent any body hopping.

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I was under the impression that it halts the flow of aether in living beings. The specifics of how exactly it works seem to be a tad vague.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I was under the impression that it halts the flow of aether in living beings. The specifics of how exactly it works seem to be a tad vague.

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And, to be honest, whether or not Zenos could body hop after being exposed to Black Rose is incredibly easy to handwave; the writers can pretty much do whatever they want with it. If that's to be his final fate, then yeah, Black Rose totally stops his body hopping, yep. If the writers have more planned, nope, Zenos died before his Aether was totally frozen and that gave his soul time to hop out and find a new host. Both are completely reasonable outcomes, provided they only use one or the other.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Zenos will most likely admit to the death of his father. Who can match him in power in Garlemald? Nobody. No one would dare challenge his authority, so they'll all follow out of fear of him. It won't be until some unseen event occurs that they will turn on him. I have a feeling the Populares however, will turn to Eorzea for help defeating him.

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Well that theory is out the window now. Zenos vanished in a puff of smoke. Nearly any military leader can make viable bid to the Emperorship now

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Originally Posted by Edax

Well that theory is out the window now. Zenos vanished in a puff of smoke. Nearly any military leader can make viable bid to the Emperorship now

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Unexpected, but completely in character for him (surprisingly). Especially how bored he is watching the fighting.

I'm bored of his boredom since time before last...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Unexpected, but completely in character for him (surprisingly). Especially how bored he is watching the fighting.

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But like, is vanishing like a puff of smoke one of his powers? Can Gaius or Estinien do that? In all future engagement, can Zenos just instantly teleport away before he can ever be in any danger?