Au Ra physiology and other lore.

Yoshi-P himself said it was based off Japan though, and there's the fact that they use Japanese motifs and words.

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Originally Posted by Kedrah

Yoshi-P himself said it was based off Japan though, and there's the fact that they use Japanese motifs and words.

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I thought he concerned it WASNT based off Japan? Either Way its still rough high altitude terrain.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Snip .

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The Raen have been stated to have heavy association with Doma (See naming traditions), but most Domans don't look like Elezen-esque men and Midlander-esque women.

It's not very possible to have that sort of split, and it definitely doesn't occur in nomadic societies. If your society is going to need warriors, there's no good reason to cut off (And this assumes that Au Ra follow 1:1 sex ratios like every race besides Miqo'te) half of the population when it would build weakness. The second an Xaela tribe goes "Hm.. why not make it so our men are a bit faster in builds so they can outspeed the other men" or "Why not focus our women on more strength builds so that they can overpower other tribes' women?" they might have a pretty solid advantage. It's why such sexually dimorphic builds within the same race of humanoid creatures doesn't happen, especially not in a nomadic culture, intelligence and strategy doesn't allow it.

This hypothetical fight seems fun, so I want to explain further in it, as I feel you all are really overestimating speed and underestimating strength! The lalafell has to divert it's attention to two seperate fronts, dodging and still attempting to attack, all the Roegadyn has to do is defend itself and occasionally swipe in the direction of the Lalafell to keep them moving. Moving the entire body to dodge attacks takes a lot of energy, no matter how small and light they are, moving their entire bodies will take so much energy. Eventually our Lalafell rogue will exhaust themselves and become sluggish and that's when the Roegadyn simply takes a quick cleave and the fight will be over. Unless our Lalafell rogue is built to be the point where they could push back a full sized Roegadyn, they're not going to win, and a Lalafell with that sort of body shape isn't going to be lithe or even have that much of an endurance shaped build!

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Originally Posted by Kedrah

Yoshi-P himself said it was based off Japan though, and there's the fact that they use Japanese motifs and words.

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Only the Raen, and that's because they're part of Doman (the Japan analogue) society. We know literally nothing about Xaela societies, other than that they're nomadic, warring tribes that inhabit Othard's western steppe. Popular belief is that this means they're the Mongolian analogue, but we don't know that.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Hiss!

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On Foodstuffs
-The plains American Indians aren't a good comparison to Xaela. They inhabited, y'know, plains, not steppes. Steppes have far fewer game animals, so the people who inhabit the region have to maximize the efficiency of what they have. Excessive musculature uses a lot of energy... we've been over this before.

The Xaela probably don't have large game animals like bison to provide plentiful meat. Small antelope is the best we're lookin' at, going by real-world examples. The available diet has a great impact on physique, and without frequent sources of calorie-rich foods they'd have a smaller and slimmer physique with more efficient musculature.

(So the real question isn't why are Auri females so tiny compared to the males, but why are the males so massive compared to the females? Seems like the same question, but it's not.)

1. Maybe insects aren't the best example, but let's look at a human example then: Bruce Lee. 5'7" and some change, between 135 and 160 lb, still renowned to this day for being one of the strongest people to ever live. It's not about muscle size, it's about efficiency; for all we know Auri women simply have much more efficient muscles than the men. Considering the size gap, without anything stating the women shy away from physical combat roles I'm inclined to believe this.

Can't say anything about the lack of muscle definition, but even the males aren't particularly cut. They certainly appear stronger thanks to their greater height and proportionally larger muscles, but we've been over muscle size before.

2. We don't know if Au Ra and Hyur are capable of interbreeding. They might be unable to produce viable offspring, so Raen genes would be unaffected by interbreeding with Hyur, leaving them with the physique of their Xaela ancestors. Urban life doesn't exactly favor particular traits, and without a significant amount of time (think hundreds if not thousands of years) for evolution to differentiate the tribes, there would be only cosmetic differences (horn / scale colors, a greater incidence of limbal rings among the Xaela, etc).

3. Nothing much to argue against. Original point is they can't change the design of Xaela females in the future because then they'd have to give everyone another free Fantasia. Yes you pay for the VR one through sub fees, so it's not free free, but you get the point.

4. I can understand that sentiment, not wanting to use a Fantasia to race change. I debated doing so with my VR one, but in the end decided just to tweak my current appearance. I didn't consider doing so to change to an Au Ra until I realized how much damn time I'd have to spend getting my crafting / gathering professions up again.

Still, you're not helping the case for sturdier females by playing a Miqo'te.

I won't just tell you what you want to hear, that "I understand and that's cool :p". If you're not helping, you're part of the problem.

In regards to moeblobs and bishoujo stagnating the game just like the anime industry... it's a possibility. Definite possibility. If people stop playing because of the character designs, and nobody uses the moeblob / bishoujo designs, they'll change things up. 'till then, though, they'll do what's known to sell. It's a pretty shortsighted way to think, definitely, but it's not up to me to try and tell SE how to do their business.

(Personally, I'm too invested in the story to let moeblob race designs stop me from playing. But that's just me.)

It's too early to make a judgment call on that issue, though. For all we know they won't introduce more races, or the new ones will have fit females and doughy males. There are infinite possibilities, so being up in arms over female Au Ra and stating they suggest all future female designs are going to be moeblobs is... I dunno, I don't wanna say silly. Presumptuous? I think that works.

Wait and see what the future brings. If a 7th race has intentionally moé females without similarly built males, OK. 'till then, cool your jets a little.

Alka Zolka's intelligence is part of what makes him valuable, if he just focused on physical training he'd be just another meatheaded Marauder! Papashan might be older and past his prime but there's nothing saying he can't go toe to toe with larger foes!

Roegadyn being able to best Lalafell in a contest of sheer physical power is undeniable, but it takes more than brute strength to win a fight.

P.S.

You did not get the Au Ra naming conventions out before the end of the month, so I shall not send you a pizza, XIV devs. However, if you are quick enough I may send you my leftover Costco pizza from tonight. I will probably have it for lunch tomorrow though, so chop chop!

I don't think the Raen are really an offshoot race of the Xaela. Their lore simply states that they were also nomadic once and then decided to become sedentary. To assume that means their an offshoot seems like a jump. If their origin myth is the only bit of their history we have to go on, then neither one is the "original" and one just decided to become agricultural and the other kept on being hunter-gatherers.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

It's not very possible to have that sort of split, and it definitely doesn't occur in nomadic societies. If your society is going to need warriors, there's no good reason to cut off (And this assumes that Au Ra follow 1:1 sex ratios like every race besides Miqo'te) half of the population when it would build weakness. The second an Xaela tribe goes "Hm.. why not make it so our men are a bit faster in builds so they can outspeed the other men" or "Why not focus our women on more strength builds so that they can overpower other tribes' women?" they might have a pretty solid advantage. It's why such sexually dimorphic builds within the same race of humanoid creatures doesn't happen, especially not in a nomadic culture, intelligence and strategy doesn't allow it.

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This suggests Xaela tribes engage in eugenics a la the ancient Spartans. Probably does not happen; the fittest survive naturally, not by selective breeding, as they're warring nomads. I've explained the advantages of a slimmer build (chiefly that it consumes less energy and thus requires less food), but we don't know why there's the gross difference in body mass between Auri sexes.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

This hypothetical fight seems fun, so I want to explain further in it, as I feel you all are really overestimating speed and underestimating strength! The lalafell has to divert it's attention to two seperate fronts, dodging and still attempting to attack, all the Roegadyn has to do is defend itself and occasionally swipe in the direction of the Lalafell to keep them moving. Moving the entire body to dodge attacks takes a lot of energy, no matter how small and light they are, moving their entire bodies will take so much energy. Eventually our Lalafell rogue will exhaust themselves and become sluggish and that's when the Roegadyn simply takes a quick cleave and the fight will be over. Unless our Lalafell rogue is built to be the point where they could push back a full sized Roegadyn, they're not going to win, and a Lalafell with that sort of body shape isn't going to be lithe or even have that much of an endurance shaped build!

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Relying on speed in combat would, actually, produce the opposite result of what you're suggesting. The greater size of a Roegadyn would mean they'd tire much quicker on the offensive due to needing to move their much greater body mass. A Lalafell has a much more efficient muscular system, so wouldn't tire as quickly and wouldn't need as much energy to maintain their movement. Defensive combat is also more than dodging (ever heard of parries and ripostes?). All the Lalafell rogue has to do is wait for an opening and counter. Minimize movement to conserve energy. The Roegadyn marauder, meanwhile, will be burning a colossal amount of energy moving their body mass.

Of course, this is assuming the Lalafell rogue is skilled enough to reliably dodge and smart enough to minimize their movement. It could go either way, really.

Play a Souls game and you'll quickly realize brute force is not often the answer to winning a fight. Play Bloodborne, and you'll quickly learn how finesse can trump even overwhelming power. (I killed a six-armed winged monstrosity equipped with six scythes, shadow magic, and the ability to create a doppelganger of itself... with nothing but an ax / halberd and a shoddy pistol.)

If you want an anime example... Super Trunks 2 vs. Perfect Cell. While Trunks had the advantage in terms of brute force, he couldn't move fast enough to hit his enemy, and tired himself out very quickly moving his increased body mass. Landing a blow might have seriously hurt Cell, but he was too fast thanks to his opponent's sluggish movement. It's not dissimilar to the proposed duel.

Anime logic applies 100% because this is Final Fantasy.

Whatever the naming rules are based on, I'm rather blatantly going for a Quechua-culture, screw it, just general Amerindian look to my own character, who also happens to be a kung fu master that's also a stoner and a drunk with zero sense of direction, and also this is Eorzea where we have ambiguously Asian catgirls with African-sounding names and big Germanivikingwelsh grey guys plus other big guys but with bear noses and Indian-sounding names plus tiny potato desert people and French elves and then some regular humans.

I'm not sure what the point that I was trying to make here was.

edit: the Souls games rule, but I haven't played Bloodborne yet because PS4s are expensive.

edit edit: Holy crap, I just realized that the reason for the lalafell body shape? Is water retention for long desert hikes!

::mystery solved::

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This suggests Xaela tribes engage in eugenics a la the ancient Spartans. Probably does not happen; the fittest survive naturally, not by selective breeding, as they're warring nomads. I've explained the advantages of a slimmer build (chiefly that it consumes less energy and thus requires less food), but we don't know why there's the gross difference in body mass between Auri sexes.

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Cilia, you seem to have a grasp on the functions of muslemass, since I was grasping as straws with my theory on Xaela development and mostly pulling it out of my arse, how close was I to how that would actually work biology wise?

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Anime and Games~

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Survival of the fittest is key. What the Auri girls are is hardly fit, they look like they belong within suburbs, not on the battlefield or anywhere near it. The Auri men fall perfectly align with "slimmer builds" with exception of their height, Auri girls do not in the least however.

If the Roegadyn actually trained and ate properly, swinging their axe time and time again won't tire them out. Keep in mind, people fought in suits of metal armor or armor in general, you don't see people shying away from that because it adds weight to their movements. Dodging is all a Lalafell could do, parrying requires directing the attack's flow to another direction via contact (It's why shields curve!). If the problem is "It only takes one hit" the Lalafell can't risk that possibility and can only dodge, and full body dodging is far more taxing than swinging an axe would be. The key here is balance which the Roegadyn would have a much job easier achieving better speed with their attacks (Repeated exercises leads to more endurance) than a Lalafell would at achieving better strength (A small body like that can only get so powerful)

Play a Souls game and realize that there's a reason why heavy strength builds are dominate in PvP (especially looking at DS1 and the Giantsdad issue), or why you can't parry every attack (Despite what fighting Gwyn would let you know, you can't parry a massive sword like that). And yet the most effective weapon for PvE (And PvP) was the stake rifle til it was nerfed, still, Ludwig's Holy Blade is a wonderful weapon to use in PvE and PvP. Souls games, despite the relatively nice combat mechanics, aren't exactly realistic considering your stamina bar is regains quite easily.

Mmn, using DBZ isn't a very good example for your case. With better strength in that series, comes better speed. It's been ages since I've actually watched or read Dragon Ball, but as a counter example, think of the Ginyu force, Burter being touted as being the "fastest being in the universe", yet was crushed simply because Goku was stronger. Power level is a compound of a lot of things, primarily raw strength though. No matter how fast you are, if all you do is mosquito bites, you're not going to be a threat.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Roar!

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- "Plains" is just a generic term, the American Midwest is very much so a "Cold Steppe" as the area the Mongol empire began in is also a "Cold Steppe". Mongolians herded animals such as sheep and goats, looking up on their diet suggests that they could've ate just as well as the Native Americans of the plains did, with animal fat, milk, meats, and bones along with various vegetation as they found it, providing plenty nutrition (Though it was apparently incredibly bland due to lack of spices!).

It's only natural for a nomadic group to move with those herd animals, Mongolians followed and herded goats and sheep. Animal fat provides plenty enough for proper caloric intact. The Au Ra don't look malnourished as well, in fact the girls have fat in all the right places depending on who you'd ask. Men look fit enough and girl's obviously have enough fat on their faces to provide that cute young look.

(Shame SE doesn't just take the Au Ra and smash their two heights together! I'd be perfectly content with having the Auri height range be 5'8 to 6'4! It'd be the best of both world if they kept the faces even!)
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1. Bruce Lee is without a doubt muscular. ( Just doing a link here because the picture is pretty big and I don't know how to hide things on this forum!) http://iambruceleemovie.com/wp-conte...4/brucelee.jpg That's not really the body that the Auri girls have, maybe more like the men do, but definitely not the women. The women would have to be completely /removed/ from combat roles for that body to make sense, even the strongest of mages wants to at least handle themselves in a physical fight for some while as an efficient armed force can't have those weak links. Nomadic cultures don't work in a way that would allow women to remove themselves entirely from combat.

( Just doing a link here because the picture is pretty big and I don't know how to hide things on this forum!) http://i.imgur.com/1JOCz4k.png No matter how compact muscles can get, this is not the body of something with even efficient muscles, and it's not the body of something that would survive in a nomadic environment.
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2. The races of man, the currently playable races, are generally capable of interbreeding, it's why you can see Roegadyn dads talking to their obviously Hyur children. I'd wager it only takes a few hundred years to grow traits that look distinct enough, look at what we've done to dogs for example in terms of breeding traits we want, heck I've got a dog with vastly longer legs whenever his breed is normally much shorter.
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3. They ought to though, more options means more players, if someone dislikes the changes to Xaela and they changed to Xaela in the first place, they'll change again. And I paid for a monthly fee to play the game, the VR is a bonus for continuing this.
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4 Oh gosh I feel you, having a few alts and going through the MSQ again isn't them most fun, as much as I do enjoy the story. It's like a constant balance of wanting to rewatch the cutscenes, but that want waning with it being the second, third, fourth, et cetera time watching it.

I wouldn't be helping the case by changing to Roegadyn, I'm just an individual after all. I could be playing Miqo'te because I don't like the options of "big mean looking human" and "bigger, flat faced human", perhaps the addition of "Big, dragon girl" would mean I'd be changing, but that's not the new race. Besides, the fault ultimately is on SE, it's their game and their responsibility to all players. We all engage in things we'd object to normally, morally or personal taste wise, all the time. Just as a word of warning, never look into what corporations you buy from and what morally awful things they've done, with that sort of mentality you'd probably want to throw out most things you own.

I like a world that makes sense, the massive sexual dimorphism in the Auri doesn't quite make sense for a humanoid race. I'll still enjoy the story, but I'll be having issues enjoying some parts of it.

Chances are, considering fantasia and how much people are at least talking about the new race, they're going to add a new race. Considering their reasoning is, and this is a reasoning people have been claiming is reasonable, "Most of the player base goes with the "moe" girls, so we made the new race just as "moe" " I hardly see them changing their minds in the future as the playerbase continues to be dominated with "moe" girl races. It's a just warning/complaint of people being so apologetic towards that reasoning.


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Of course not, but you can't deny that brute strength is incredibly effective. Overall strategy + strength is best, it's why we've got tanks and those tanks have commanders to tell them what to do in war! Speed is nice, but if all you're doing is mosquito bites against metal armor then you're going to lose.

So sad about the lack of names conventions ; ; Really hungry for my Xaela lore.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Fantasy and weird names.

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Oh but the best Anime (And fantasy) follow some semblance realistic rules! It's why fantasy can be so fun!

Mmn, probably going with an Eastern Slavic name for mine, but I still would love naming conventions soon so I could decide.

So many words x.x

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On Foodstuffs
-The plains American Indians aren't a good comparison to Xaela. They inhabited, y'know, plains, not steppes. Steppes have far fewer game animals, so the people who inhabit the region have to maximize the efficiency of what they have. Excessive musculature uses a lot of energy... we've been over this before.
The Xaela probably don't have large game animals like bison to provide plentiful meat.

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The Xaela I imagine are closer to the Nomadic lifestyle of the Mongolian people. Which is so perfect for my Au Ra WHM ^^, but they would have trading/alliances/warring with other Xaela tribes.
Being an Asian game, the Mongolians would probably be a good look to for some Xaela role play :).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Only the Raen, and that's because they're part of Doman (the Japan analogue) society. We know literally nothing about Xaela societies, other than that they're nomadic, warring tribes that inhabit Othard's western steppe. Popular belief is that this means they're the Mongolian analogue, but we don't know that.

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I was talking about Doma, not the Au Ra, because Kaiser-Ace was theorizing that Doma is China and not Japan :P
Yoshi-P said that Doma = Japan, and the Raen have lived among the Domans for a long time so they adopted their culture.

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Originally Posted by Kedrah

I was talking about Doma, not the Au Ra, because Kaiser-Ace was theorizing that Doma is China and not Japan :P
Yoshi-P said that Doma = Japan, and the Raen have lived among the Domans for a long time so they adopted their culture.

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Yea, I found where he said that. I just thought when the ninja quest mentioned ninjas it said they came from a small island east of OTHEARD not Doma. So Doma was probably that small island and based off of Japan while the Western main land is probably based on Europe and Asia.

I went off for 3 days and suddenly, tons of posts.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

I would say the opposite while there might be more on this thread look at the "show your Au'ra" thread in General Raen and caucasianish skin seem to be most common.

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Yeah, seems to. I love how the race doesn't have many "normal" skin tone options. I mean, It's a fantasy game, lets escape reality!

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Personally, I prefer the black scales and horns over the white. Makes me feel more like I'm playing a fantasy race, while the white horns/scales makes them look like Midlanders with a skin condition.

But that's just my opinion. :rolleyes:

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Same Here.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

If your society is going to need warriors, there's no good reason to cut off ... half of the population when it would build weakness.

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And yet, through nearly all of human history, that's been the case with our own race. Gender equality is a pretty new concept, only reaching as far as combat roles within the last few decades. Before that, some cultures allowed women to learn self-defense, but that's more of a precaution for times when their warriors failed to protect them. The warriors, of pretty much every culture, were invariably men.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

The second an Xaela tribe goes "Hm.. why not make it so our men are a bit faster in builds so they can outspeed the other men" or "Why not focus our women on more strength builds so that they can overpower other tribes' women?" they might have a pretty solid advantage.

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That's only true if they had some magical way of completely changing their entire species' genotype in a second. Whether they want their women strong or their men more slightly built doesn't change what they're born with.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

I'd wager it only takes a few hundred years to grow traits that look distinct enough, look at what we've done to dogs for example in terms of breeding traits we want, heck I've got a dog with vastly longer legs whenever his breed is normally much shorter.

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Dogs are quite unusual (unique?) among mammals in just how readily they'll evolve. In roughly the same timespan that wolves have been changed into everything from Great Danes to Chihuahuas, cats have gotten some variations in the length and color of their fur. Evolution (including the deliberate evolution by breeding) is based on naturally occurring slight variations that are then selected for. Dogs have far more such individual variations than most animals, and as a result can be more readily bred.

Humans took tens of thousands of years to develop even minor variations like skin tone and hair colors. Most of our traits date back to our Cro-Magnon ancestors, and none of the cultural changes since then have had a really noticeable affect on them. (Even those coloration differences are believed to have come from changes in climate, not culture, depending on how much protection we needed from the sun.)

Of course, SE gets to decide how Auri evolved. If they wanted to produce drastically wide variations, they could simply give us more options in the character creator and those of us interested in pondering such things would decide that Auri must have a high rate of genetic variation, (making them more like dogs than humans in that regard). But since, on the contrary, the most obvious difference between the different tribes of Auri are the color of their scales and horns, I'm guessing their rate of mutations is more similar to our own.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

References!

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The point is, if they're equally trained a Roegadyn marauder and Lalafellian rogue are about evenly matched. While the Roegadyn has the advantage in size and power, they're also going to suffer greater recoil from attacks (making ripostes much easier) and tire themselves out much quicker moving their greater body mass (doubly so encased in armor). The Lalafell won't deal as much damage per hit but it'll add up, they won't tire as quickly, and with lighter weapons there's much less recoil; the trade off is they're much more fragile.

In regards to Souls games... the (in)famous Giantdad is broken because it combines excessive force with great speed. While the combat in those games isn't photorealistic (even excluding the giant monsters), it's a fair bit more realistic than most games; you can't just pick up the biggest stick and keep swinging it and expect victory. (I'm not a PvPer though, so take that for what you will.)

In regards to DBZ, things are often twisted around to meet plot reasons. Presumably though Goku was able to trounce the Ginyu Force because he outclassed all of them in their respective specialties. The Super Trunks 2 vs. Perfect Cell fight was one of the few times Toriyama bothered to bring realism into the fighting, if only to prevent a secondary character from offing the arc villain, but the point is the larger and more muscular you are, the slower you tend to be and the faster you tend to tire. This gets turned around against Cell when he loses his patience fighting SSJ2 Gohan, bulks up like Trunks did, and loses faster than he would have staying at his normal, slimmer physique.

Anyway, I digress.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Rawr!

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1. We don't know what the western Othard steppe is like; what flora and fauna inhabit it, what kind of rainfall it gets, what kind of metals occur there... nothing. Assuming it's like Mongolia and that Xaela society is like ancient Mongolians is jumping to a conclusion. Until we know that kind of information it's impossible to determine what Xaela society is like, and I'd rather not jump to the conclusion that Xaela = Mongols. Even for the sake of argument.

That said I'm sure there's a reason (or at least some flimsy justification) for the sexual dimorphism, but I'm just going under the assumption that the men are warriors and the women compensate by having proportionally stronger muscular systems, fill only magical combat roles, or just don't fight at all.

"But that doesn't make sense for nomadic, warring hunter tribes!"

... it's a fantasy game, things don't have to make 100% sense. The Garleans have access to airships and high explosives, but they don't just carpet bomb their enemies' urban centers or military fortifications. Why?

2. The point is, size != power. With so little of their biology and social structure known, it's entirely possible Auri women are actually stronger than Auri males despite their smaller stature.

As for why they're not super-cut... probably just have a thin layer of fat to hide it.

3. The only instance of racial interbreeding is possibly between Hyur and Miqo'te as confirmed by G'raha Tia during the Crystal Tower storyline. No other mention of racial interbreeding has been confirmed; ever considered adoption, like Raubahn and Pipin Tarupin?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but until there's confirmation I have to assume it isn't.

4. Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. Personally though, I'd rather not wake up one day with +15 ponzes of muscle and +1 fulm of height as a Xaela woman and then have to pay to change it.

5. I realize there are reasons for playing a Miqo'te besides "because they're cute," but SE doesn't have the time to ask players why they chose that race / sex. They look at the numbers and the numbers show people are going with the moé / bishoujo designs, so people must want more of those.

Ergo, anyone not playing a female Highlander or Roegadyn is not helping with the case for sturdier female designs, no matter their reason. Changing to a female Highlander or Roegadyn will help, in a small way. You might never get the exact sort of design you want, but well... sig.

The world makes plenty of sense; we just don't know the justification for Auri sexual dimorphism yet, however flimsy or concrete it might be. 'till then, chill out a little.

Future races are a possibility, but until I see artwork and images of them I have to assume they won't have the excessive sexual dimorphism Au Ra exhibit. Just because SE went with the popular moeblob image this time doesn't mean they'll continue to do so. I make no excuses on their behalf for this, but I accept it for what it is.

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Brute force is effective, but it's pointless if you can't catch or hit your target. Melee combat generally favors speedier attacks; tanks are not a good analogue here because they can hit a wide area.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Personally though, I'd rather not wake up one day with +15 ponzes of muscle and +1 fulm of height as a Xaela woman and then have to pay to change it.

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Nobody's character would change just because SE decided to add some more customization options. I don't think anyone has proposed making it mandatory for all female Auri to be tall, buff, and fierce looking, just that it would be nice if that were eventually possible. Those who at that point want to change to the new looks would need a fantasia. Those who like the moe look would simply keep what they already have.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Nobody's character would change just because SE decided to add some more customization options. I don't think anyone has proposed making it mandatory for all female Auri to be tall, buff, and fierce looking, just that it would be nice if that were eventually possible. Those who at that point want to change to the new looks would need a fantasia. Those who like the moe look would simply keep what they already have.

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Sam's suggestion is that they made the Raen / Xaela clans split like the Midlander / Highlander split, so... if they decided to do that, it's very possible yes you'd just wake up one day with more body mass and have to pay for a Fantasia to change to something else if you don't like the new look.

Of course I don't think they'd do that, but I don't think they'd further split Au Ra into Raen, Xaela, and Xaela (Highlander) either.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yeah, seems to. I love how the race doesn't have many "normal" skin tone options. I mean, It's a fantasy game, lets escape reality!
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The Race has PLENTY of Skin tones found on Earth, I would say the majority are IRL human skin tones there just are some options for really crazy stuff like Green.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Hiya!

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If you're strictly looking within Western culture I suppose, and that's excluding the fact that plenty of women soldiers have been unwritten out of history for reasons. A variety cultures such as the Native Americans, Mongolians, and Africans cultures had plenty of women participating is both hunting activities and war parties (And they certainly weren't sneaky rogues!). And as a minor tangent, the push for gender equality is about as old as the values the United states supports in its Constitution (ie freedom, liberty, the pursuit of happiness or property if you asked the french!) within the West, there were other, much less reasonable factors keeping women from combat.
Except the Xaela have been engaging in war with each other for a long time, it's as their ancestors did after all. They'd want their women to be as strong because strength means basically everything in combat, so chances are they'd reproduce with women that were strong so that their children would continue to be strong. If they liked their women petite and waifish.. Well, it's a wonder why their kids (boy and girl) aren't also small. Genetics and evolution aren't magic, it's just what happens. Once a species expresses a will for a certain trait (Or has that will for a certain trait forced upon them, ie Dogs), that trait begins to show up more and more.

Yes, and evolution whenever a species is sentient enough to want their kids to be a certain way (Or dogs) things tend to go that way. Example; "I'm strong and I want strong babies, I'm going to have babies with the strongest woman possible so that our babies will be also strong" or "I want a dog that has thicker fur and short legs so I'm going to breed a dog with short legs with one with thick fur til I get what I'm looking for, then keep breeding that."

Yet it only takes a few generations for something like height or eye color to become dominant in some people. The Au Ra would want the strongest children possible so naturally they'd look out for traits that show strength and power, aka intimidating sizes, larger muscles. It's not too alien for an Au Ra to want a strong woman to protect their kids and probably participate in war as well. Unless literally /every/ Auri girl was petite and waifish and /every/ male was the way they are (Which wouldn't happen for so many reasons), a warring nomadic race would naturally look to make the strongest children possible.

Also humans have a massive amount of variation, not to the degree that dogs do, but considering all the various phenotypes within people (Heck even people within Europe look massively different dependent on where they're from, ie Swedish body types as opposed to English as opposed to Southern Slavic) we're pretty darn diverse visually.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

References and screeing!

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They're still moving their entire body though, it means they're much more likely to slip up, which is something even a glass cannon can't afford! While lithe builds work better endurance (Looking at long distance runners as opposed to sprinters is a great example here) to claim a more muscular build won't last long doesn't ad up. Repeated muscular exercises, such as what's required in melee combat, build endurance and muscular, swing a sword a thousand times it ceases to become burst strength and is just what the body is capable of doing. Otherwise Rauhbahn wouldn't be as muscular as he is, and I'm pretty sure Rauhabhn would decimate most people with one arm tied behind his back (heh) despite his muscularity for even the longest of fights.

Giantdad was great because the large combo'd swings meant folks only had limited options to do til their stamina was depleted either through shielding or dodging, and then the sword combos kept coming til your health was the next thing depleted. The various Souls games have pretty realistic combat, note how large weapons such as the halberd and claymore are more popular than dagger for example, the only build two builds I can think of that fall under "dex" builds that are also fairly effective involve the Chaos blade or the broken shortsword.

And yet Broly is a thing in DBZ and very threatening. It's only "realism" because it suits your argument :P Power levels in DBZ never made much sense, they can't "suddenly make sense" for one fight, whenever in the canon of the universe, Broly kicks the idea that buff = slow out the door. Trunks failed because Toriyama wanted him to fail.

1. But there will be a basis, and from that basis we can assume other things. It has to be plentiful enough to support life, otherwise the Xaela couldn't live there, and unless if a the Xaela fight just to fight (Which.. Isn't the smartest idea for a species and probably wouldn't last long!), chances are they're fighting for more resources. I've put up other examples of nomadic cultures, namely the various plains natives.

There might be a reason, but if that reason doesn't make sense, then people not only are justified in complaining, SE ought to fix it. They can't just do things on a whim unless it involved Hildebrand (Because Hildebrand isn't suppose to make sense in the least, it's absurd comedic relief!). There's a reason why reputable story makers make a canon and keep that canon to logical sense. So far, FFXIV has been fairly reasonable, why kill the streak with a flimsy justification for something as dumb as massive sexual dimorphism

Lack of resources, their biggest airship was destroyed by Midgardsormr, their most intelligent man in the field (Cid) is with the Eorzeans, Darnus wanted to decimate Eorzea (Project Meteor) but that failed and Darnus is dead (kinda), and Gaius didn't want to conquer ruins so he doesn't want to carpet bomb Eorzea and is now dead (Maybe). So Garlean is out resources, their best man is gone, and the Eorzean invasion force failed twice, it makes a lot of sense for why they don't want to carpet bomb their enemies' urban centers or military fortifications.

2. The biology within a single species doesn't work like that, if the girls have that super efficient skin muscular body, odds are the guys would too, this is not the case.

You're grasping at straws there Cilia :P

3. While adoption is a possibility, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post490835 confirms that interbreeding between races of man is possible, normally not occurring due to culturally differences, but seeing as how the Raen are heavily associated with Doman culture then there isn't much of a reason.

4. "Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man." SE is responsible for its mistakes, its their duty to fix them, if that requires giving every Xaela that wants to change a fantasia for free, then that's apart of their responsibility.

5 If SE isn't willing to go through a survey like that, then they shouldn't make assumptions. For all SE knows is people go with Miqo'te because they're settling and want Ronso, but they don't know the actual reason, they're just assuming.

Changing to Highlander or Roegadyn won't help though, heck if anything it's just putting a massive amount of money into SE's pockets from fantasia, and whenever we don't get what we want and change back to the original races, SE again won't care because more fantasia money. It's drops of water in an ocean for one person to change. While you choose to be a highlander to "voice your opinion" (For all SE knows, people like Highlander because they like "meanfase"), I choose to voice my opinions other ways that don't result in giving SE even more of my money (ie outside my subscription via fantasia).

I'm quite "chill", I don't get how I'm not, it's proper debate what we're doing. I've been trying to reason through why the Xaela girls being so short, but it doesn't make any sense for a nomadic warring culture to not focus on their women becoming as strong and as big as the males are (or assuming lack resources are why the girls are so moe then why aren't the men as well?), outside of "~Loljustcause~" which isn't something a company ought to be doing if they want to actually make a good game.

"If you're not helping, you are part of the problem", if you aren't participating in telling SE "The Au Ra are bunk" you're saying you're quite fine with the next race being the same. SE stated their reason was "We made the new race like this because the fanbase seems to like the cuter races", there isn't a reason for them to make a race that actually makes sense. There is also statements along the lines of "If we add another new race, we'll design it depending on reactions on the Au Ra", seeing as how the most people seem to either be complacent or supportive of the Au Ra, they again, have no reason to change.

I ask you along with everyone, what will you do if the next race is moeblob with the girls and excessively sexually dimorphic? If it's "Continue to be a highlander/Roegadyn" then you're certainly not helping.
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Melee combat favors accuracy with strength, to which speed doesn't equal accuracy. Who cares how fast you are whenever your attacks don't hurt? All it takes is one hit, and you're far more likely to make a mistake or get caught off guard. Plus, all this talk is forgetting that "Burst" strength. A sudden "burst" of speed to match the opponent and the fight it over because all it takes is one hit.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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While I wouldn't be opposed (Seriously SE >_> ), to that, Cilia ain't lying, I wish the Xaela would be more highlander-esque with their model (Though the Raen are fine!). The game ought to make sense to the lore and logic, when the company in charge of lore makes such a mistake, they've got to fix it, it's their responsibility. They did it with the addition of girl Roegadyn and guy Miqo'te, they ought to do the same here assuming they change.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Dogs are quite unusual (unique?) among mammals in just how readily they'll evolve.

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A recent study has actually provided evidence that dogs have been co-evolving with humans for approximately 27,000 years.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32691843

From an evolutionary standpoint there are all sorts of reasons for unusually high degrees of sexual dimorphism. Although, the more extreme examples tend to make the females bigger than the males (producing eggs takes more energy). On the grand scale of things, the degree of dimorphism displayed by the Au Ra is actually not that huge. It could certainly point to culturally driven selective pressure based on societal gender roles though.

PS: I'm new here. I hope to make more meaningful contributions to discussions around here as I actually get to experience FFXIV's story. Also, my goodness that character limit is small.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Mrow!

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Most of your logic runs on the assumption that Auri genetics function just like human (or Hyuran) gentics, and that they're controlled through and expressed by similar processes... which is just that, an assumption. We don't know how Auri genetics work, and really, I doubt they've put that much thought into it.

However, for all we know the genes determining height and muscle growth / density are on the Auri sex chromosomes... which would easily justify the sexual dimorphism Au Ra exhibit. While it's rather jarring to be sure, and uncommon among mammals, there are more bizarre cases of sexual dimorphism in nature.

Any case of sexual dimorphism can be explained by genetics. It's a cop-out, but it's there.

Anyway.

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Size and power are not the sole determining factors in a fight, that's all I'm trying to get at in the hypothetical "Roegadyn MRD vs. Lalafell ROG" fight we have going on. I know you want to think they are, but they're not.

Yes, realism only applies when the author wants it to, and Trunks lost because Toriyama wanted him to. The point is, generally speaking greater size = greater power = requires more stamina = faster tiring. In fiction.

You can't use Broly as an example either, he's not canon.

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1. Othard's western steppe can support life (considering the Xaela live there), but we don't know anything else. Is it mountainous? A desert? Snowy? Are there large game animals? How warm is it in the summer? How cold is it in the winter? Can they grow food? What's the vegetation like?

We don't know, and the thing is that it doesn't have to run on real-world logic because it's not a real place. For all we know it's a cold desert with five-ton mammoths that have super-efficient metabolic systems, who live off buried grass. They are numerous, plentiful, docile, and maybe domesticated, so there's no shortage of food among the Xaela, and they fight other tribes just for the hell of it.

It doesn't make too much sense, but neither does regularly fighting 2-story tall rock monsters with a pair of daggers.

2. See my above point on genetics.

3. That post was made probably before the Au Ra were conceived, so while I'm not discounting the possibility of interbreeding between Au Ra and Doman Hyur there's also the possibility they're too genetically different for it to be viable. Even if it's possible, in nature genetic hybrids are inherently infertile or become infertile by the second generation, so it's highly improbable that Hyuran genes have gotten into the Raen gene pool and altered their physiology.

4. I'm not saying you're wrong to disagree with the direction SE chose to took the female Au Ra (or Au Ra racial design in general), but only time will tell if it's a mistake.

5. It's just an assumption, but even if they put up an official poll somewhere, unless they forced everybody to fill out a survey asking what they'd like the next race to be like it wouldn't be representative of the general consensus. (Plus a large amount of this game's audience as well as it's developers are Japanese, and they do tend to favor the moeblob image.) Even if they did that, chances are people would lie, put in smartass answers, and / or just be apathetic towards it in the first place. Ever heard of the "Dub the Dew" contest?

Most people don't put a lot of thought into their race anyway. It's almost purely cosmetic, so people go with the "mundane," "elegant," "cute," "sexy," or "tough" race (Hyur, Elezen, Lalafell, Miqo'te, or Roegadyn) and don't put much more thought into it. Complex reasoning such as yours and mine ("I want an attractive, but still tough woman who looks like she'd actually be out adventuring.") is far from the norm.

Never said you had to use a Fantasia to change to a female Highlander or Roegadyn. Yep, doing that would just pour more money into SE's coffers... so do things the hard way. Never said doing the right thing was easy.

I'm not going to say "Au Ra are bunk" because, like most things, there are things I like about them and things I don't. They're very cool, a much more fantastic race than any of the ones thus introduced, and are rather customizable (the men moreso than the women actually, if you bother to look at certain options). On the other hand, there's the excessive sexual dimorphism that makes the women tiny waifs while the men are tall hunks... but you gotta take the bad with the good. Can't have everything. Can't eat your cake and have it too. Etc.

To answer the question:

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

I ask you along with everyone, what will you do if the next race is moeblob with the girls and excessively sexually dimorphic?

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If that happens, then I'll be a bit upset; we already have enough inherently waifish / moé female designs. Until such a time, I will simply consider the sexual dimorphism present in the Au Ra part of their racial identity. The intentionally moé design of the females there is no excuse for, but... it's a game I'm not in control of, so sig.

Clearly the next race should have women that are much more muscular than the men and other wise look like trolls or ogres. That will satisfy everyone who complained about the female Au Ra being too "girly."

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Clearly the next race should have women that are much more muscular than the men and other wise look like trolls or ogres. That will satisfy everyone who complained about the female Au Ra being too "girly."

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Next expansion is arctic... no no, tropical, with playable doughy walrus midget men and amazonian walrus women.

I'm callin' it!

I'm going to interpret more now!

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Originally Posted by AmalahRose

Ihttp://i.imgur.com/LgwAfuQ.png

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Comes off a bit standoffish to people, is actually just reserved and thinks hard before speaking/acting.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

http://i.imgur.com/ZMloL2A.jpg?1

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Comes off as eccentric to people. Is actually eccentric. Practices some kind of creative art with great enthusiasm.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I just can't decide about the tail.

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crocodile tail do it do it

EDIT: Yes, this tail, as rocked by mine:

http://i.imgur.com/KPAvLRU.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Meow meow meow!

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In order for something to reproduce, generally they require some freaky magic thing (maybe a thing in FFXIV) or similar genetics, in the case of the "races of man" being able to reproduce with each other they have similar enough genetics to work, we must assume with what SE has given us, and the Au Ra are still a "race of man" therefore have similar enough genetics. I don't think they have, it's their fault for making no sense though, not the player who delves too deep and finds inconsistencies.

Perhaps, it's how humans have their sexual dimorphism. It still doesn't explain why the Xaela are so radically different whenever it doesn't take a genius to realize making babies with certain people makes certain babies. Sentient beings have the capacity to realize this and there's no good reason why the Xaela wouldn't either attempt to mate with the strongest mate (assuming the environment supports it) or the less resource intensive mate (as the environment would demand it)

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But size and power are massive contributors to a win. It's why assassins doesn't go into direct combat, it's suppose to be quick and accurate because they're lightly equipped and can't defend themselves. Speed factors in, but it's much less important. Like I've said in other posts "If the Auri men were the strength of the Xaela, while the women were the speed, all opposing force would have to do is balance the speed with strength and they'd dominate."

And Toriyama could have decided just as easily that Trunks wins because Cell was too cocky, just as "realistic" because it's Dragon Ball, it hardly ever makes sense.

Besides, you keep bringing up this concept of "more dense muscles" which would be just as heavy as muscles capable of the same power out, which means they require the same amount of power to move. A dense rock weighs more than a less dense rock of the same size.

And this is the problem with retcons. Making things one the fly then deciding those things don't exist creates logical inconsistency, for example even if Broly isn't canon, he still has a power level which is a thing in the universe, he's still theoretically vastly stronger than anyone under a 1.4bil Power Level which vastly higher than Cell at his max. DBZ isn't a good argument point.

Perhaps a better example of realism is Berserk and it's universe. Heck it even covers our "Stronger vs Faster" argument with Guts and Griffith or Serpico without resorting to such weird measurements like Power levels.
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1. It can't be too barren, there's enough life there to support a good bit of Xaela as they've been "Warring" which probably implies it's quite a bit of Xaela tribes. It might be snowy, it could be a desert, it is not mountainous except for the possibility of it being surrounded by mountains, Steppes are flat. We don't know, but what we do know is nomadic cultures function in a certain way that doesn't match up with Xaela culture.

Again, the best fantasy is one grounded in reality. Why care about a story where anything could happen for no reason? It removes plausibility and prevents a world from actually being immersive. If SE somehow explained all of that perfectly then I've got no reason to complain, til then, just as people complain about plot holes in anything, they ought to complain about nonsensical lore.

Sure it does! If we're talking about Titan he's a primal, all primals are are just Aether of a certain type manifested into the physical plane. He's alive and our daggers disrupt his form, slowly weakening it til his form is disrupted and released back into the Aetherstream til he's summoned again. Aether does some weird things, one of them is gives life and all the wonderful pain that comes with it to inanimate objects. Enough pain and the being collapses.

2. Cop-outs shouldn't be okay, it's lazy story telling and the consumer doesn't deserve that.

3. If Roegadyn and Lalafell can make babies (Talk about hot Skitty on Wailord Action there!) then the Au Ra could make babies, they are a "Race of Man" as all PC are. Though it does seem like they were planned after that post was made, but I also doubt they'd recon that answer. Maybe we could get some answers in the future, but with the info we have now, the Au Ra are a "Race of man" and can crossbreed.

4. Fine, I suppose I'll wait on that one.

5. But that's perfect, open up polls so that if people actually care, they can answer. SE has to listen to the audience outside of Japan though, why bother even porting the game over if they don't care about our opinions? It'd be a lot of work to sort through those smartass/troll answers, but the dev team of FFXIV pride themselves on "Listening to the fans", it's what should be expected of them.

If people don't put much thought in it, why does SE bother catering to them? Why not listen to fans who actually put the dedication crafting their character the way they want besides just hitting randomize a few times til something looks nice? Money shouldn't be the answer, it's a bad sign if it is.

That's exactly what SE wants you to say though. "Sure they could be better, but I'll settle." They've got no reason to change then, they've already hit the minimum bar. I'd be willing to settle if the options were actually slightly reasonable, instead we've got one "meanfase" and a height range of 5 inches for the "warriors", which is hardly the great levels of customization a lot of people expected for the Au Ra due to SE's words. The good's gotta outweigh the bad for me to settle, the Au Ra have been far too much of a disappointment with their girls for me to accept it as it is.

We know SE's reasoning for the Au Ra, and I highly doubt that's going to change. Currently, we've got to let SE know "Hey the Au Ra's designs are bunk and don't make much sense, please make their body shapes make sense (Either through additional and more indepth customization or a complete redesign of the Xaela) and attempt to make the races not like this again." Now while that might as well be a miracle if SE would ever actually do it, much less get the fans to actually support that gesture in mass. I'm in the minority here, I know, but I wish I felt like SE would throw a bone to those minorities who want those sorts of things, it shows honest dedication to every fan, not just the majority.

Besides, SE's reasoning on the Au Ra is flawed anyways. The men aren't anything near Miqo'te or Hyur, so what's the deal? Alternatively, if they made the Xaela like Highlanders and the Raen like Midlanders, it's literally the best of both worlds.

One must work within their situatedness to get what they will for, least they end up existing in bad faith.

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Originally Posted by Isklexi

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Hi and welcome! You can get around the character limit by editing your post! Super useful as you can see from one of the several posts in this thread.

Interesting input on the evolution of dogs! Didn't know about that!

The thing about that is nomadic cultures don't have those sorts of gender roles, beauty is a thing, but strength is also emphasized, strength in the fields, at home, and even in war for women. They really can't afford to have women with the way the Xaela girls are, petite, waifish, "something that looks like it needs protection", they wouldn't survive.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

1. Othard's western steppe can support life (considering the Xaela live there), but we don't know anything else. Is it mountainous? A desert? Snowy? Are there large game animals? How warm is it in the summer? How cold is it in the winter? Can they grow food? What's the vegetation like?

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Steppe have a real meaning its not a random term. Thanlan is generally called a desert. The Shroud is a forest. Islands are called islands. Mountains are called mountains. We know exactly what a Steppe is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe

Now there might be giant mammoths and lots of food but we know there aren't mountains and deserts because its a friggen steppe.

So a steep is a grass plain like what the Apache and Mongolians lived in.

This still would permit the genetic speed vs power scenario since a smaller build is much quieter for stalking prey (and easier to conceal).

While the more physically endowed males would likely be the frontal force to bring large game down the females smaller frame would be better for stalking and tracking since they'd make less noise.

The females under that logic would also be ideal for stealth operations since, again, being smaller makes it much easier to hide and stay quiet.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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Mhm, they also have the notable feature of grazing herd animals, bison in the case of Native Americans and sheep, goats, cattle, and yaks with the Mongolians.

Where would they hide though? Lush and large vegetation is sparse in Steppes. If we're talking quietness, well, Auri men are hardly walking one men bands, and it's not the hardest thing in the world for a larger person to be stealthy. They're tall but they're certainly not Roegadyn.

Assassination isn't something generally used to take out enemy troops, mainly heads of power. Chances are if they were so aware of the constant threat of stealth, all they'd need is enough men to box in the assassin and deal with her, because she more than likely isn't strong enough to overpower the male if there's a Speed vs Strength dynamic with the sexes.

Plus considering the way the Auri horns function in enhancing hearing and special recognition capabilities, it'd be pretty difficult to sneak up one one, much less many. Stealth doesn't work offensively with the Au Ra due to their horns.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

So a steep is a grass plain like what the Apache and Mongolians lived in.

This still would permit the genetic speed vs power scenario since a smaller build is much quieter for stalking prey (and easier to conceal).

While the more physically endowed males would likely be the frontal force to bring large game down the females smaller frame would be better for stalking and tracking since they'd make less noise.

The females under that logic would also be ideal for stealth operations since, again, being smaller makes it much easier to hide and stay quiet.

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Well if we are going to use real world examples then well the males are kind of well crap for the steppe. The females have a more Mongolian/Native america build. And Steppe nomads in Eurasia generally were all about being small mobile killing machines vs big bruisers. They made significant use cavalry, there's a reason why you don't have people like the Rock as Jockeys.

So building on that I'd imagine Xaela males are more home bound protectors of camps. Excellent at defensive strategies being larger and having less need to move. The females are the attackers, archers and lancers using their mounts to easily make up for the male size difference.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Angry cat noises!

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Not going to get further into the interbreeding things, because Lalafell x Roegadyn just makes no sense and there's no word on whether or not Au Ra can interbreed with other races (yes they're a "race of man" but they're radically different from any other race), so as far as I'm concerned it could go either way.

In regards to the sexual dimorphism, you're still running on the assumption they should practice eugenics like the Seekers of the Sun clans. We don't know that. Does it make sense for the Xaela to breed for stronger, fitter specimens (male and female alike)? Yeah, it does. But since when has every decision people made in regards to mates made sense?

... especially since what I interpret from their lore snippet (their "fiery wills") the Xaela are more emotional than the Raen.

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Not underestimating the value of size and strength, but they're not all it takes to win a fight. Balancing speed and power isn't always the right option, either, because if you can't compensate for your shortcomings (or, the opponent's superior fields are too much to compensate for) you'll lose.

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1. We don't know what Xaela culture is like yet. Still. So saying real-world nomadic cultures don't match up with their lifestyle is jumping the gun, and they don't have to match up to a real-world nomadic culture anyway.

The best fantasy is one grounded in reality, but there are always going to be things that don't have to make sense or it's not fantasy. How are there floating islands in Ishgard? How do Dragoons jump so high? How do dragons fly with those tiny wings and huge body mass? Why doesn't Raubahn go into shock when his arm gets lopped off? Why doesn't he bleed out fighting Ilberd (with the increased heart rate and massive open wound)? Etc etc. Physiology is another thing, but... it doesn't have to make sense.

Titan was originally what I had in mind, but there's also the rock golems. And no matter how you want to justify it, stabbing a rock monster with daggers should be ineffective.

2. It's a bad excuse, that it is. I don't deny it. But it's an excuse all the same, and if they have to (or want to) use it, they can and will. I can tell them it's a cheap excuse, but I highly doubt it'll change anything.

3. Possible but I assume negative unless we have official conformation. Either way, I did point out that genetic hybrids are infertile or become infertile by the second generation, so Raen physiology being altered by the introduction of Hyuran genes is still improbable. (Yes it's a fantasy world so this might not be the case, but if you want to apply real-world logic to it that's not something you can ignore. Even fantasy worlds sometimes apply this, as is the case with D&D half-dragons.)

5. I'm not saying the devs don't or aren't listening to the international audience (why do you think the Auri males are ruggedly handsome when the Japanese don't consider that... well, all that masculine?). A poll might help, but it could also be inviting trouble as it's flooded with troll answers like "doughy walrus midget men" and end up not being worth the effort. Remember "Dub the Dew."

(Though seriously, I'd love to see a playable doughy walrus midget man, just for lulz. I will name him Mr. Hamhands.)

SE caters to the people who don't put a lot of thought and effort into their characters because it takes a lot less effort. Instead of putting out a poll (which not everyone will pay attention to), screening out troll answers, and hoping they get an accurate reflection of the popular consensus, they can just draft up a design matching the most popular tastes by numbers. Or, just go with whatever the artists feel like doing, or the writer feels like introducing.

While getting "the best of both worlds" is ideal, it's rarely an option in reality. You have to give something up to get something; in this case, some people would not like having Xaela women be more like Highlanders, and the artists probably would not feel like making another tough female model people are going to mostly ignore. It'd also push back the release date when it was already pushed back from Spring 2015, so the fans would be upset over the release date being pushed back again for a model a lot of people aren't going to use.

There's no easy answers in the real world.

Anyway, since we've had pages upon pages of female Au Ra, figured I'd post what I'll go with if I decide to change to a male instead of a female, shake things up, y'know...

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/a...nders%2010.png

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Woof woof! :3

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Hey man, take that up with the lore devs, that is some hot skitty on wailord action and apparently the devs dig it. Until they state otherwise, I'm inclined to believe that they can, I honestly don't think the Au Ra are that different than the other races of man. Plus if a Roe and Lala can.. Shivers Only the twelve know what that would make.


I think choosing a mate based on their strength isn't very eugenics orientated, no more than a dude is practicing eugenics for only dating women with big breasts, but I could see where you come to that conclusion! The Auri have plenty of reason to choose a mate based on strength outside of strong babies, a mother and father capable of defending the homestead with as much strength as possible together is much more efficient for protecting babies for example!

Care to go further what you mean by that?
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Reasonable, but there are certain additional factors which sway the tide of battle, I suppose in the case of our MRD vs ROG, really whoever's smarter wins?

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1. However SE has shown that they do heavily borrow from real life for their cultural inspirations, the Holy Roman Empire influences on Ishgard, Doman culture with Japanese, or the Roman influences on Garlemald are pretty apparent. If they somehow make a reasonable justification for those difference I'll accept them, but

You're not wrong, but whenever those things are explainable to something akin to realities logic and the logic of the fantasy realm, you get a great fantasy realm going. Aether and the Allagan abuses of its power probably explain the floating islands. Dragoons are imbued with the spirit (And arguably aetheric essence) of dragons allowing them to jump with such great heights. You got me on those dragons, but it could be aether could be bumblebees and their stupid pathetic wings. Same on Rauhbahn, but you'd be amazed on what the body can do under extreme circumstances, endorphins are one hell of a drug! It can be rationalized, and in turn those rationalizations can be rejected, as I've done in this thread with rationalization of the Auri sexual dimorphism. It's really a pursuit for making sense in a world that we can only draw parallels and some intersections to, and it's what we've been doing! I love it a lot haha.

You'd be surprised what a well sharped knife could do metal when given the proper edge and enough power! But again, aether! It's utterly unknown to us in concerns to its capabilities (While genetics on the other hand is something we are far more familiar with)
2. Fans in generally ought not to support such weak excuses, I mean, what happens whenever

3. Well, I hope they update that blip as well sometime soon. That's not the case in FFXIV though, considering the weird Miqo'te with Allagan genes, and seeing as how that Miqo'te talked about his forefathers also expressing the gene, he's probably not infertile himself. Despite the similarities between Miqo'te and Hyur, they also have arguably one of the most different appearances due to the expression of entirely different ears and furred tails. I wouldn't be so far as to guess Au Ra follow along the same sort of deal.

5. The poll took the entire playerbase, if their reasoning for the Auri girls is "Most players choose this one" then why do the men not follow up? It's not like they suddenly polled those outside of the Japanese for how the men of a new race should look. It's a risk SE ought to take. The "Dub the Dew" contest wouldn't have occurred if the poll was moderated properly, honestly, such things as having options of like "Do you want it to be masculine looking? y/n" "Do you want it to be feminine looking? y/n", a diverse amount of guided questions is the best way to handle a poll.

But it's also a much less sincere effort, which isn't what SE ought to be aiming for, especially whenever the fans and the FFXIV dev team have been touting the "We think of our fans" banner post 1.x series. If the fans choose not to participate in the poll, why should SE care about them? Those fans chose not to voice while some fans did. While it would be easy for SE to go along with whatever the writers feel like or whatever the artists feel like, it removes the voice of the fans and consumers who might actually be willing to suggest things, and if SE wishes to continue that banner of "We think of our fans" they ought to look out of them.

Mmn, which is why I'd prefer it be implemented later rather than sooner. Plus it's the artists job to do that sort of thing, if they don't want to draft and design another "tough woman model" it's a wonder what they were thinking whenever they were asked to make Roegadyn girls. It's a true show of effort, and SE won't know how many people it'll garner til they actually tried and produced it.

The walrus men sound horrifying, and I'd be very much so prepared to raise a spear to defend myself if I saw them coming to Eorzea :P

Hmm, grasslands typically haveong grass and the horns just give them a "unique spacial awareness" so to me thats more like, for lack of a better term, "spidy sence". That could be exclusive for hunting, interfere with the function of others, or work in a completely inconceivable way that the devs have to explain.

And since it was mentioned about large builds sucking at steppe topography, it strikes me that they could in fact be simmiler to lions. Females using their leane and leathal form to hunt while the more hulking males defend the home teratory.

Then assuming the horns grant a certain level of esp then they are 100% practical for hunting prey AND the anti-stealth sencory to prevent the camp from being ambushed.

(Also let's stop using fringe and psudo biology on a game where we have fish people, carnivorous plants, and sentient rock creatures. None of it truly applies in a fictional " Magic trumps Logic " based universe.)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

(Also let's stop using fringe and psudo biology on a game where we have fish people, carnivorous plants, and sentient rock creatures. None of it truly applies in a fictional " Magic trumps Logic " based universe.)

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That doesn't mean they don't base things at least in part on IRL ideas. The Roe seem in part based on Ice and Fire giants from Norse myth, even going so far as to have a vague sort of viking backstory for the Sea wolves. They aren't a 1 for 1 thing but you can see how Viking culture was used as a basis. Similarly Doma is based on Japan, its not a 1 for 1 thing but it has many Japanese aspects.

now Othard seems to be "Hydaelyn asia" the Xaela are warring nomads who live upon the steppes. We know the Xaela are using a real world language practice. I would bet that Xaela will take heavily from Mongolian and other steppe people(the Huns!).

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Originally Posted by jomoru

That doesn't mean they don't base things at least in part on IRL ideas. The Roe seem in part based on Ice and Fire giants from Norse myth, even going so far as to have a vague sort of viking backstory for the Sea wolves. They aren't a 1 for 1 thing but you can see how Viking culture was used as a basis. Similarly Doma is based on Japan, its not a 1 for 1 thing but it has many Japanese aspects.

now Othard seems to be "Hydaelyn asia" the Xaela are warring nomads who live upon the steppes. We know the Xaela are using a real world language practice. I would bet that Xaela will take heavily from Mongolian and other steppe people(the Huns!).

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None of them are physical or biological logics, they are culture. Lalafells can throw a roegadyn fly away with their little baby hands.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

figured I'd post what I'll go with if I decide to change to a male instead of a female, shake things up, y'know

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There's a haircut straight out of DBZ.

As for crossbreeding fantasy species, I usually frown upon slippery slope arguments, but this subject really is one in fantasy stories. I come from Warcraft, and they've got a character called Med'an that ranks up there with terrible fanfiction.

On selective breeding for survival, humans IRL don't selectively breed for specific traits consciously. Even with our current knowledge of genetics, we don't do it. Unless eugenics is specifically part of their culture, I doubt there is any overt selection going on.

On future FF races, I'd love to see a playable beast race that has next to zero dimorphism. It would be a departure from the current roster of races.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

crocodile tail do it do it

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I really like the crocodile tail, but I'll check how the tails look in game before I pick one.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

What the fox says!

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Not going to go further into racial interbreeding. If the devs say it's possible it's possible, even if I disagree with it. (Maybe it's like Pokémon breeding, where Roegadyn x Lalafell produces Lalafell all the time? /shrug)

Either way, choosing a mate based on the genotype / phenotype advantages it can give offspring is literally the definition of eugenics. Seekers Miqo'te might engage in this, but until someone says so I do not believe either Au Ra tribe does so. Don't know what the Au Ra find sexually attractive (and I doubt they'll go into that much detail), but the women almost certainly don't have a genotype capable of expressing the height and muscle mass of the men. Why that is and how they survive then... don't know, but we (still) know next to nothing about the Au Ra anyway.

(Phenotypical expressions of genotype are complex affairs, not the simple "Gene X produces Y in the organism" deal most fiction runs with.)

I figure the Xaela are more emotional because their wills are "fiery;" fire is hot, and a hot temper is more passionate. By extension, Xaela are probably more inclined to choose mates based on love, affection, and / or physical desire instead of going on what makes the most logical sense. Unless it's a part of their social structure like the Seekers Miqo'te, I highly doubt they practice eugenics.

1. Just because the cultures currently in-game have real-world inspirations doesn't mean everything will or has to.

Saying "Aether / Magic / Allagan tech" is just as much a cop-out as saying "genetics" (it's actually more of a cop-out because it has zero real-world basis).

Even if he had endorphins and adrenaline to keep him running for a short time, Raubahn still should have lost too much blood to remain conscious throughout the entire scene, and would have simply bled to death afterward without immediate medical care he had no clear reason to be given.

Pickaxes and sledgehammers are used while mining for a reason. Trying to stab or cut rock monsters with knives (letter openers, in a Lalafell's case) is pretty damn pointless.

2. See above.

3. Hiccups in regards to genetic hybrids aside, I figured maybe the Miqo'te descendants of the Allagan royals just stayed with Miqo'te society (it's part of the G tribe ancestry?), and the more genetically "Miqo'te" their offspring are the more likely it is they're fertile? Or maybe it's just like Pokémon genetics (see above). I'm fine with minor vagaries like this.

Either way, racial interbreeding is still stated to be rare, and with that in mind it's still highly improbable Hyuran genes have seriously affected the Raen genotype, even assuming racial interbreeding produces genetic hybrids and not just one or the other (Pokémon genetics).

5. While (as far as I can tell) the data harvested to come up with the Au Ra designs took up the entire playerbase... there's the possibility people overall went with the "cute / petite" women and the "tough" men. There's also the possibility they designed Auri women to appeal specifically to the Japanese market (since they conform to Japanese standards of beauty) and Auri men to appeal to the Western market (since their larger, muscular frames appeal to Western ideals of manliness). Don't know, but the end result is the sexual dimorphism the Au Ra exhibit.

There's no perfect solution. No matter what they do someone isn't going to be happy, so they went with what they thought would make the most people happy.

Like I said before, if they decide to change female Xaela designs (or any race / sex design) in the future, they'd have to give a free Fantasia to anyone who doesn't like the new look, everyone else would complain about how that's not fair, and then they'd have to give everyone a free Fantasia. (It's probably not that complex a thing, just changing around some numbers, but y'know.) The only alternative is to tell the people stuck with their new model "tough," and that makes them look like jackasses.

Introducing more "tough female" models might help, but then again it might not. Considering they've already done so with the female Highlanders and Roegadyn and people aren't playing them much, signs are not favorable.

Do not fear the doughy walrus midget men; they are cute and cuddly, hardly threatening, as they main source of supporting theyselves is diving for oysters and crafting beautiful jewelry out of things like coral and pearls. It's the women you want to watch out for, as they're much taller and more muscular than the men, and regularly hunt large sea mammals like orca.

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Originally Posted by Isklexi

There's a haircut straight out of DBZ.

As for crossbreeding fantasy species, I usually frown upon slippery slope arguments, but this subject really is one in fantasy stories. I come from Warcraft, and they've got a character called Med'an that ranks up there with terrible fanfiction.

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A lot of the exclusive Auri male hairstyles are ridiculous and would take at least an hour to do in real life. Only one is (sorta) realistic-ish.

And yeah, I know all about Me'dan's 3 planet ancestry and how he's a big ol' Marty Stu. I disagree with his character and it makes absolutely zero sense, but he's not my character to be responsible for and I'm not in control of the world, so I just ignore(d) him just like everything I don't care about in other fantasy worlds.

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Originally Posted by lololink

None of them are physical or biological logics, they are culture. Lalafells can throw a roegadyn fly away with their little baby hands.

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Um Ok? I'm just pointing out the Devs are completely making stuff up but rather using the real world as some level of basis. Its not a 1 for 1 thing but its not something that is completely abandoned.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Um Ok? I'm just pointing out the Devs are completely making stuff up but rather using the real world as some level of basis. Its not a 1 for 1 thing but its not something that is completely abandoned.

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Not disputing the mythological Origins of a lot of the themes. Heavensward especially is borrowing heavily from Norse mythology.

I just see nothing but futility in arguing Eugenics and Genetics in a universe where our sciences aren't fundamental laws like in our universe.

So yes, environment practicality is a definite but as far as those other two go, they're taking it way further than any level of application considering Hydaelyn and Earth vary slightly in their laws of physics and nature.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Not disputing the mythological Origins of a lot of the themes. Heavensward especially is borrowing heavily from Norse mythology.

I just see nothing but futility in arguing Eugenics and Genetics in a universe where our sciences aren't fundamental laws like in our universe.

So yes, environment practicality is a definite but as far as those other two go, they're taking it way further than any level of application considering Hydaelyn and Earth vary slightly in their laws of physics and nature.

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Well ultimately we have two things to argue from, what the Devs might have been inspired by Or developing psychic powers and reading their brains directly.