[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion. I think what induces this amount of vitriol on the forums specifically, is that one, you're associated with your ingame avatar here to an extent that doesn't happen on other sites and two, the writers played fast and loose with the lore of the world that avatar lives in to complete their emotional storytelling. It seems to me that endwalker was written partly backwards like a Nier game with the player's emotions in mind. When it's like that, analysing sets of dialogue is just an exercise in frustration, because framing and music and other aesthetic elements aren't just important, but might have more weight than what characters say and do. Ultima Thule is this writing style made manifest, and it worked for most people I interact with online, (mostly reddit and youtube comment sections).

Venat gets not one but two songs dedicated to her. "with hearts alligned" is from the player's pespective and is basically a gratitude bomb for helping us get this far. The other is "flow" which paints Venat as a gentle observer watching the souls of mortal cycling through the Eitherial sea for the sake of a "tomorrow", which I intrepret to be the day we finally meet Meteion. All this including Yoshi-p crying again and again when watching the Hydaelyn confrontation seems to suggest to me that the game uses all of the tools at it's disposal to make liking and accepting Venat and her actions, "right", from an emotional and thematic standpoint. I understand how that might not work for poster on a lore forum, but I think the emotiononal "go with the flow" angle is the only real way to "get" endwalker the way millions of others have, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

---

I think part of the issue here is yes, they do use a lot of emotional and thematic framings to make Venat seem right. But that’s the part that doesn’t sit well with people. This is supposed to be a story that has grey morality. Instead they have us support someone who committed mass genocide, but not only that she is revered to as a hero for it. Where’s the greyness?

Also just a side comment but the game definitively doesn’t have millions of players xD it’s far less than that especially now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think part of the issue here is yes, they do use a lot of emotional and thematic framings to make Venat seem right. But that’s the part that doesn’t sit well with people. This is supposed to be a story that has grey morality. Instead they have us support someone who committed mass genocide, but not only that she is revered to as a hero for it. Where’s the greyness?

Also just a side comment but the game definitively doesn’t have millions of players xD it’s far less than that especially now.

---

I guess i just never really wanted or needed the story to be grey or to be presented as such. I haven't really done much post endwalker content because I'm replaying the story on my alt(and I'm in the middle of shadowbringers so I'm nearing the parts of the story that caused the blood feud on the forum as I understand it). I understand there's a quest where you get a dialogue choice to say Venat is wrong, but again, to me, weighing the dialogue as the end all be all of how we as the player are supposed to feel about things just doesn't work from me. If we were talking about an actual historical event or a deeply serious philosophical proposition, then I would engage in that mode of analysis, but in my experience, no story with identifiable themes survives such an analysis. It isn't even the first time in the series that the end of a utopic civilization and it's people was deemed neccesary for the sake of the plot and themes.

Maybe not concurrent players, but there are around 40 million unique registrations, and it would still technically be millions of only 5% of those finished endwalker. While Venat is a sticking point on this forum, there are also plenty of other things that sour endwalker for people, the comic relief bunnies being one of them. I enjoy most aspects of endwalker, but ffxiv isn't my lifegame like it is to many others, and i believe the closeness many feel to it's world made it inevitable that some would be deeply pained when Ishikawa took the wheel and went the direction she did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

That kind of behaviour is obviously inexcusable, and I'm sorry you expierienced such a thing because of a videogame opinion.

---

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

---

You’re absolutely right, the posts from some of these people being downright disrespectful to someone for simply making a video on Venat was downright horrendous. Thank goodness the mods got rid of them because it was crazy how rude people were being towards the creator of the video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

I guess i just never really wanted or needed the story to be grey or to be presented as such. I haven't really done much post endwalker content because I'm replaying the story on my alt(and I'm in the middle of shadowbringers so I'm nearing the parts of the story that caused the blood feud on the forum as I understand it). I understand there's a quest where you get a dialogue choice to say Venat is wrong, but again, to me, weighing the dialogue as the end all be all of how we as the player are supposed to feel about things just doesn't work from me. If we were talking about an actual historical event or a deeply serious philosophical proposition, then I would engage in that mode of analysis, but in my experience, no story with identifiable themes survives such an analysis. It isn't even the first time in the series that the end of a utopic civilization and it's people was deemed neccesary for the sake of the plot and themes.

Maybe not concurrent players, but there are around 40 million unique registrations, and it would still technically be millions of only 5% of those finished endwalker. While Venat is a sticking point on this forum, there are also plenty of other things that sour endwalker for people, the comic relief bunnies being one of them. I enjoy most aspects of endwalker, but ffxiv isn't my lifegame like it is to many others, and i believe the closeness many feel to it's world made it inevitable that some would be deeply pained when Ishikawa took the wheel and went the direction she did.

---

As far as the grey morality goes i think the issue is what the devs themselves have stated they wanted the story to be received as grey and having grey morality. That’s why a lot of people feel led on with Endwalker. They were promised something Endwalker just didn’t deliver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

While I can't condone in-game harassment, I do suggest reading over this thread before you fully buy into the crocodile tears. (You won't be able to read any of the removed posts, but rest assured they were bad.) The mods here are silent entities who don't really act unless people cross very obvious harassment lines, but also won't act unless people report posts, and even then still may not. They won't simply ban people for unpopular opinions, and this can be observed: many accounts known for being very vocal with those opinions dropped back in to Lore simply to post in this thread.

---

Yeah, I think it's interesting how some of them absolutely despise being called the minority opinion, when some posters here have admitted to things like echoes of etheiris's channel being a "safe space" for people critical of Venat. Feeling like you need a safe space while claiming to hold the opinions of a silent majority is very sussy behaviour. This is why I'm genuinly concerned, because it seems these people's reaction to endwalker and it's discourse has twisted their psychology to a point which i don't just concider unhealthy, but socially ruinous. I first researched this because someone argued with me on a youtube comment like their lives depended on it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a pretty sensitive person, so I was actually kinda shaken by the response. Like, it's fine to have an unpopular opinion, but that's an inherently painful thing to some extent, as endwalker sort of points out. I don't believe in retributitive justice, and there are pretty much no interpersonal safe spaces for that position that doesn't collapse when someone has a bad day. I accept that and move on. I don't try to convince myself I have an army of allies in the shadows. If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

Yeah, I think it's interesting how some of them absolutely despise being called the minority opinion, when some posters here have admitted to things like echoes of etheiris's channel being a "safe space" for people critical of Venat. Feeling like you need a safe space while claiming to hold the opinions of a silent majority is very sussy behaviour. This is why I'm genuinly concerned, because it seems these people's reaction to endwalker and it's discourse has twisted their psychology to a point which i don't just concider unhealthy, but socially ruinous. I first researched this because someone argued with me on a youtube comment like their lives depended on it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm a pretty sensitive person, so I was actually kinda shaken by the response. Like, it's fine to have an unpopular opinion, but that's an inherently painful thing to some extent, as endwalker sort of points out. I don't believe in retributitive justice, and there are pretty much no interpersonal safe spaces for that position that doesn't collapse when someone has a bad day. I accept that and move on. I don't try to convince myself I have an army of allies in the shadows. If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

---

The issue is with the terminology of minority vs majority with people assuming there’s nothing in the middle. Tbh though idk what it is with this trend of victim shaming. Someone i know literally had their own personal life harassed because they didn’t agree with Venat’s actions(as well as doxxing). It’s just that people here have an obsession with attributing any opinion they dislike as being in the minority as to silence others. We literally have people in here complaining about people talking about Venat….in a thread that is literally about a video talking about Venat. You can see the people in this very thread trying to silence others. It’s ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The issue is with the terminology of minority vs majority with people assuming there’s nothing in the middle. Tbh though idk what it is with this trend of victim shaming. Someone i know literally had their own personal life harassed because they didn’t agree with Venat’s actions(as well as doxxing). It’s just that people here have an obsession with attributing any opinion they dislike as being in the minority as to silence others. We literally have people in here complaining about people talking about Venat….in a thread that is literally about a video talking about Venat. You can see the people in this very thread trying to silence others. It’s ridiculous.

---

I used to follow the attack on titan manga, so I know what a more evenly divided fandom looks like. I think it's legitimate to point out which positions you think a majority/minority of the fandom holds, because it's important as to whether the writers did their job correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T-rexpectation

If being critical of Venat gets you ostracised from social media, then you have to admit it's a minority opinion.

---

I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I don't think most people espousing negative views of Endwalker do think they're in the majority, at least none of the ones I've had any association with did. They were largely under the impression their opinions would be perceived as hot takes, and so they quietly walked away from the game. A few of them did try to voice their opinions on social media prior to leaving, but uh... let's just say it didn't go well. Now, when I say "voice their opinions," I mean in the form of respectful, insightful critique of the content as presented, utilizing facts and not solely their feelings on the matter. Mind you, I'm not talking just Venat here. Some of them had gameplay critiques, some had issues with the story not related to Venat, and some multiple grievances. I'm sure you get the point.

The most interesting thing I noticed while observing all this take place was how different the reactions people got were. Those offering the most well-thought criticism seemed to receive the most enthusiastic push-back from the community, while those being vitriolic airheads saw little to no engagement. Or, phrased in a more straightforward manner, those with critiques worth reading wound up getting absolutely buried in salt. Notably, it did seem mentioning Venat in particular would invite the largest quantity of salt. There were of course some good faith individuals looking for a proper discussion on the matter, but they were typically drowned out by far less eloquent posters. When you're getting blasted from all sides, it can be kinda hard to find and focus on those individuals who've indicated a willingness to engage with you respectfully.

It's completely fine to disagree with someone. Hell, as weird as it is, some of the most intellectually engaging conversations I've had pertaining to this game came in the form of debating other players on various issues. Somewhere along the way people decided to choose debasing over debating, much to the chagrin of myself and presumably others. It's not just a problem here, though. It's a problem everywhere, and it seems to be getting worse with time. A fair amount of it stems from people's tendency to perceive criticism of something they like as an attack and become defensive, I suppose.

---

People being mean to you isn't really an argument against their positions. You can be right and mean, though it would be nice to have one without the other.