DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

Sheesh people, it's not that complicated. You push the sprint button and go on with your day. If disabled people playing the game with literally one arm can properly tank dungeons so can you. This message is meant for people who get slightly annoyed or confused when they see the rest of the party ahead of them. Just press the button. In the case that a dps is using their mobility to gapclose to mobs faster than you even with sprint, then either they actually play their job at a high enough level to know to use arms length to slow the mobs for you, and/or they take a couple extra hits and the healer throws maybe an ogcd at them or something while they bring the mobs to you. It's not really a big deal. And if its timmy playing past his bedtime and feels too cool for school to bring his 2 mobs to you, then sure, feel free to grumble a bit and remind him to bring mobs to you (if you use keyboard). I'm really just over the mindset that tanking roulette dungeons takes a significant amount of brainpower and any slight to that is some cause for alarm.

Not even going to bother responding to the 'tank mains' in this thread who advocate for ypyt and 'uwu i just requeue if i get kicked my queue is so short uguuu' because I legitimately believe that its some form of mental illness.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Edit... *I'm* not arguing that though. You just said something almost everyone universally agrees with. Its the DPS pulling and thinking they are in right for it that I don't buy. Granted high ilvl players and vets can trivialize things but imo its a bad take when the game combines high and low skill players by design. People only like seeing the perspective that best suits them..

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I mean, if you wanted to optimize (i.e, complete as quickly as possible) a dungeon run, wouldn't that be the case? You'd want tanks and dps to stagger their sprint usage, in order to start engagements faster.

Tank pulls to the first wall, mobs are burned down before tank's sprint comes off of CD - dps sprints ahead and pulls up to the next wall. With arm's length/some other personal mitigation that the dps has, a shareable tank mitigation thrown on the dps, and maybe a bit of attention from the healer, that dps can easily survive until the tank catches up.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, if you wanted to optimize (i.e, complete as quickly as possible) a dungeon run, wouldn't that be the case? You'd want tanks and dps to stagger their sprint usage, in order to start engagements faster.

Tank pulls to the first wall, mobs are burned down before tank's sprint comes off of CD - dps sprints ahead and pulls up to the next wall. With arm's length/some other personal mitigation that the dps has, a shareable tank mitigation thrown on the dps, and maybe a bit of attention from the healer, that dps can easily survive until the tank catches up.

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Not really. If you want to min max and go for something like a top speed kill the healer usually gets thrown out in favor of a dps and they all pretty much move together. There are some instances where a DPS with a gap closers gets there a bit faster and takes a few hits before the tanks pulls of aggro but arms length isn’t a discernible concern.

And in a more conventional setting everyone is usually hitting sprint at the same time to keep up with the tank. If a dps gets there first it may be by a fraction of a second but even when I’ve run dungeons on tank this actually isn’t something that happens. They tend to trail behind because usually (the good ones) tend to focus on maximizing the damage they do to the group of mobs and their positioning at the end leaves them slightly behind you, be it for positionals if one mob was left standing and they stopped aoeing or the fact they are casters and left some distance between you and them to avoid AOEs.

Here’s an older video of one:
https://youtu.be/qGJ7wiPusJk

Edit heres another one for more sources than just sfia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Salu...HatsukaRaigeki

You'll notice the trend that even at these distorted running speeds the tank still tends to be ahead and initiate microseconds before or at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Not really. If you want to min max and go for something like a top speed kill the healer usually gets thrown out in favor of a dps and they all pretty much move together. There are some instances where a DPS with a gap closers gets there a bit faster and takes a few hits before the tanks pulls of aggro but arms length isn’t a discernible concern.

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A DPS pulling on behalf of the tank and using arms is something that appears pretty frequently in top dungeon speed-logs. It's something that has even higher value in a 3dps/1tank party, due to the finite amount of sustain the tank has. DPS health-bars can almost be perceived as an extra shield for the tank in some instances.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

A DPS pulling on behalf of the tank and using arms is something that appears pretty frequently in top dungeon speed-logs. It's something that has even higher value in a 3dps/1tank party, due to the finite amount of sustain the tank has. DPS health-bars can almost be perceived as an extra shield for the tank in some instances.

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I don't think DPS shouldnt use it. after all its an OGCD that you can weave in when you get a chance or even go into a pull with it active. So you lose absolutely zero by having it on. It's the notion that a DPS should pull first and apply those debuffs to the all the mobs before the tank takes them as the optimal route that I dispute. We need to see whether tanks actually wait for the DPS to double pull and apply that debuff to mobs before the tank tries to take aggro for mitigation purposes or if they just go in with it on the off chance it may apply to any mobs. Given how noone waits for anything in a speed run I think its more a case of the latter than the former.

You wouldn't happen to have a video so we can see would you? I'm actually open to learning, the videos I linked don't show this behavior.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yea people like that are dumb, like why wouldnt you bring any mob aggro you get into the tank aoes? It makes no sense to not stack up with the tank.

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Being fair, I've seen a non-zero number of DPS just plain panic when they realize there's a mob on them rather than the tank, and try to kite it around without it even occurring to them to bring the mob to the tank because their brain has experienced an unexpected system error. This is not unique to people pulling mobs, of course. ("Why. Why did you drop the exoflare puddles on the entire party." "I PANICKED." "Okay, well, next time... panic in the other direction.")

If I'm in a dungeon and tanking and someone panics like that... if at least they're nearby while running around like they're doing an interpretive dance version of a Scooby-Doo cartoon chase sequence, I'll shift position enough to try to Provoke the mob off them. If, on the other hand, they're booking it back towards the entrance of the dungeon like they're on fire, rather than dragging everything else after them, I admit there's a point at which I write it off as that either they kill the mob and come back, or the mob kills them and it comes back (and they can respawn and rejoin us).

As I said earlier in the thread, I'll do whatever I can within reason to reclaim aggro if you wandered off with a mob... but pull a mob into an entirely different timezone and I will probably let you keep it; I'm only willing to commute so far to regain aggro.

(Especially if doing so would mean I'm dragging everything else along with me, forcing the healer and other DPS to backtrack as well.)

As a tank main (Unfortunately reaper this tier for my static)
I consider people pulling for me a challenge, i'm obviously not going fast enough, it makes me want to sprint even harder and assert dominance

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I don't think DPS shouldnt use it. after all its an OGCD that you can weave in when you get a chance or even go into a pull with it active. So you lose absolutely zero by having it on. It's the notion that a DPS should pull first and apply those debuffs to the all the mobs before the tank takes them as the optimal route that I dispute. We need to see whether tanks actually wait for the DPS to double pull and apply that debuff to mobs before the tank tries to take aggro for mitigation purposes or if they just go in with it on the off chance it may apply to any mobs. Given how noone waits for anything in a speed run I think its more a case of the latter than the former.

You wouldn't happen to have a video so we can see would you? I'm actually open to learning, the videos I linked don't show this behavior.

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I mean, we'd be talking razor thin margins in speedruns here. The time it should take a tank to catch up to a dps pulling should be less than a gcd - and the dps probably only get hit with one round of autos, but that should be enough to apply the arm's length debuff to some of the enemies and have it rolling for the pull.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, we'd be talking razor thin margins in speedruns here. The time it should take a tank to catch up to a dps pulling should be less than a gcd - and the dps probably only get hit with one round of autos, but that should be enough to apply the arm's length debuff to some of the enemies and have it rolling for the pull.

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You know I even decided to check and see since Little Imp mentioned data and it seems that in top global speed runs of current dungeons only Ninja can reliably get ahead enough with its shukuchi to apply it to mobs. And some dps use it once even though it doesn’t manage to affect any mobs, others never. I even saw a WAR that didn’t use their arms length lol. I’ll stick with my position that it’s largely irrelevant seeing as some of these groups don’t even have a dps that can use arms length.

It was something like:
Top speed clear the dead ends:
BRD and BLM, no dps with arms length

Smileton:
A ninja landed slow on a total of 5 mobs

The Stigma dreamscape:
A dragoon used arms length but managed to slow no mobs at all

Alzadaal’s Legacy:
A dragoon used arms length but managed to slow no mobs at all

Make of that what you will but to me it means in rank 1 clear runs people don’t wait around for a dps to land an arms length on mobs. It’s just a nice thing if it happens.

At the end of the day though, in regular dungeons via DF the polite thing to do is wait for the tank to pull. No amount of salt is gonna convince me otherwise. I’m more interested in a chill experience than a fast one. After all if I wanted to optimize I wouldn’t be using the DF.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

This is more about those times where I am waiting for everyone to zone into next area (healer in particular). Or when I want to take a drink. Or maybe someone didn't know a mechanic on the boss we just killed and I'm pointing it out for next time

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Watched the uncle do this in the ice sprite hallway of doooom in Vigil. He mains as tank and occasionally forgets to remember he is no longer tanking. Watching the squishy healer Leeroy down the double ice sprite hallway was fricken hilarious. Still learning healer he wished to attempt the big chungus pull a second time and he did, I suppose. "Dammit I'm dead what happened?" his partner informs him that he just ran in without anyone, response; "Oh right woops". We all laughed ourselves sick.