Gender Locks Have Revealed the Worst in Players.

New generation entitlement.

If they can't have it threaten, I said this before its the wrong way to go.

Then if a person tells them to calm down they attack players, then SE wants to make rules revolving around them which I say is the wrong thing to do, which quoted they said they read social media and news and other stuff and see things changing no it only changes when you bend to their will and that's something I won't do.

they say don't bully anyone then attack, then turn around and bully, don't get your way threaten then try to bend them to their will to force them to do stuff its wrong of course I'll get someone saying I am the bad person here for calling that out but I know better.

Best thing to do is let SE do their job I never had a issue with how they done stuff from FF1-15 why even try to act like I am entitled to anything, they've done good so far and successful why try to change things?

You pay sub so does everyone else never got like this in FFXI why is it happening here.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I would also not tell women from Muslim nations that they have to wear them, either. One thing people need to understand is that societal norms can be bad.

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Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

And I'm not saying you did either, because I honestly haven't read all of your posts. Just responded to the ones you responded to. But I'm seeing some pretty nasty stuff being said about not just SE, but the individuals in the company. That's simply not right. If this issue is going to be addressed, it will never be addressed properly in this tone. It's spiteful to a company that has tried to be accommodating.

I give SE the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they need time to address the gender thing. Maybe they need to change the lore, or even create new lore. We have an entirely different world to go to, where the lore might be completely different. And maybe that's how we "unlock" them.

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

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I'm going to strongly disagree and say that you can absolutely judge people for how they feel, especially when they go out of their way to make it known. You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

Maybe you feel like in this specific instance it's not something they should be judged for, but in that case we'd again have to disagree. Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

No, I haven't said anything particularly nasty about them. I think FFXIV's team is talented and has delivered fantastic content. It's not like I think they should lose their jobs. I'm just calling a spade a spade. The hypermasculine/hyperfeminine genderlocked races, the bunny outfit fiasco, glamour disparity, and even the extreme sexual dimorphism of the Au Ra. The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

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Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

Welp, props to the west for screaming and throwing a tantrum so loud, it got Yoshi's attention. Yes, I'm calling it a tantrum because that's exactly how many players acted. I was even told by a player in game to walk in a lake when going "Yeah bara cat bois!" All in all, it's amazing, and kind of embarrassing. Because imagine if people were this vocal, but minus the poop flinging.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sq.../1100-6465810/

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Originally Posted by Gula

Welp, props to the west for screaming and throwing a tantrum so loud, it got Yoshi's attention. Yes, I'm calling it a tantrum because that's exactly how many players acted. I was even told by a player in game to walk in a lake when going "Yeah bara cat bois!" All in all, it's amazing, and kind of embarrassing. Because imagine if people were this vocal, but minus the poop flinging.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sq.../1100-6465810/

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Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

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I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. It's easy to say someone is sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. The harder part is understanding why you might perceive them that way, or why they might very well be that way. The mind is a fascinating thing. Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex. It's just as easy to see societal pressures sway someone's thinking as well in this fashion.

Maybe they didn't feel comfortable making female clothing on male characters, because it's not something they are familiar with. I personally would be uncomfortable programming a jockstrap for instance. Not because I'm sexist, but because I've never worn one. You can say they make skimpy clothing all the time, but it's not all overtly feminine on men. We'd never know any of that though, because nobody asked each individual male developer what they were thinking during the process.

Instead, they all get slapped with a generalized label of being sexist. Every single last one of them, by you and others. Maybe that had nothing to do with it at all. There are many reasons someone could feel uncomfortable in that situation. And the issue did get resolved by the company, so you can't label the company as sexist. They pushed until they got someone on it. Honestly that situation is a moot point now, because it was handled.

Is any of it wrong? That depends on who you ask. True tolerance is understanding the differences that make each individual unique. You shouldn't rush to judgment of one another, nor slap a label on them before you truly know the individual. And even then, you should respect their human right to have their own opinions and world view. This has become a new thing in Western society, to call someone a racist when they disagree with a certain politician's policies, for instance. Or to call someone a sexist because they hired a man instead of a woman. It doesn't have to be based on anything factual other than the pure baseline for those definitions.

Calling a spade a spade, for instance, is a very intolerant thing to do. It's closely synonymous with judging a book by the cover. It's rude, impolite, and usually does not take into consideration anyone's personal feelings, past, or views. Basing an entire "sexist" claim on one individual instance, is quite frankly intolerant. But, I don't want to call a spade a spade here, so I'm going to assume you have a lot more evidence to back up your claim of persistent sexism by these developers.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

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No, I'm not saying they shouldn't expect criticism, nor feedback. I'm saying there is a more productive, less emotional way to do it. Coming at them in a thread-opening post screaming "homophobes" or "sexists" doesn't help anything. Neither does immediately calling out anyone who might disagree as "white knights." This is when most people stop listening and grab the popcorn. Why? Because it's so silly to even contemplate the company is either. Individuals might have their own views inside the company, but in whole, they have gone against their societal norms many times to cater just to players of this game.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

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And this is also fine. A Japanese company made a game based on many cultures, with their cultural fundamentals, and have tried to make it work globally. That is very hard to do, if you ask me. They can't simply cater to Japanese culture, and they can't simply cater to Western culture. They have to figure out ways constantly to work with both, not to mention draw on historical cultures for inspiration.

Can we help them understand Western culture more? Sure. But not screaming "sexist" at them every time they ask (or don't ask) for feedback. I'm sure they think we're a bunch of loudmouth idiots by now, and I would have to agree. We've done nothing as a whole to disprove that.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

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And again, nothing wrong with that. However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental. You're saying your mind is already made up in the matter, so what is there to discuss? Why should the other side feel obligated? They have to come in battle-ready with evidence to prove they're not sexist now, before they can even discuss the next topic.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

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And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying there won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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I definitely agree with your first comment. I think with the BLU pushback, that's on a very different level. They are now getting called sexist, homophobic, and a plethora of other things.

I do also feel a bit for Yoshi. People keep referring his comment where he said it would be "weird" if male Viera were a thing. Unless I'm missing a full conversation, that was just a single one-off remark and wasn't elaborated on in any way, yet people are analyzing the crap out of it and pulling the absolute worst assumptions. The comment was years ago, and in his mind he very well could have just been thinking "male are just about non-existent in XII, that would be weird if we had them", and now it's being turned into he's homophobic, and thinks any part of the LBGT community is wrong.

I know from first hand experience how these forums can twist an incredibly innocent comment into something horrible. While none of us know how he meant that comment, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and I personally feel it was rather harmless. We already have the option to make rather effeminate males in this game, I don't think he'd be shying away from male Viera for that reason.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. [...] Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex.

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If a new person joins the team I lead at my workplace and confides that they're afraid of all black men because they grew up in a bad urban neighborhood where crime was high, I'm going to tell them that I'm sorry for their experiences but they're going to have to make sure they don't let their bias, no matter the reason for it, get in the way of doing their job properly and treating everyone equally regardless of skin color. To do otherwise would be racism.

We are adults that work through our struggles rather than use our negative experiences as an excuse to be unfair to others.

This is a non-negotiable position.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental.

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This is not a "card" and is not a buzzword used to artificially inflate the value of my argument. This was not a sudden judgment made just because of male Viera. It has been the topic of discussion in the past. It may not have been important to you, so maybe you weren't aware, but we have talked about these ideas before with regard to unnecessarily genderlocked clothing, the bunny outfit in particular, the dimorphism of the Au Ra, and even the genderlocked races back in 1.0. This has just been the most egregious offense to date, especially because we thought we'd moved past this offense in particular.

I get it, it's not a pleasant thing to be called. However, it's also not a pleasant thing to be on the receiving end of.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying their won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

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And again, I appreciate the respectful responses but we will disagree. My criticism is not brash or blind. They are assertive without being aggressive and are, as of yet, undisputed. At best you have only given reasons for sexist societal conformity and explained that I am supposed to be understanding.

Which, to be fair, I am. I understand why they did it. It just needs to change. They need to address their internal values or, at the very least, recognize the culture to which they are marketing and adjust.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Yea it's quite upsetting how outrage culture and social justice is leaking into video games; the places we go to escape and just have fun. The western players are some of the most cringe, entitled, and self-indulgent people I've ever seen.

With that said, I'm surprised and I find it odd that Yoshi-P acknowledges the tantrum of "no bunboy fetish" in a matter of days after its announced. Yet, the months of overwhelming support of a non-limited Blue Mage job goes unnoticed.

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As upset as I am that BLU hasn't been acknowledged, you've got to admit that the viera backlash has been MUCH bigger. The two main BLU threads had about 200 likes each, whereas the viera one has nearly 800

Edit: 850 and climbing

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

It just needs to change. They need to address their internal values or, at the very least, recognize the culture to which they are marketing and adjust.

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Not to be offensive, but I'm just wondering why Japanese need to be the ones to change or adjust their values? We do recognize the culture the game is marketed to, and a very large portion of that market is Asian markets. I know myself and other Japanese, as well as our friends in Korea, Vietnam, and China, share most of the same cultural and societal taboos and norms. So can you explain to me what is the NA culture and values you'd like the Japanese SE team to adjust to? Is this and the other threads wanting gender-neutral or such races and getting so upset about not being as progressive as the NA and USA are indicative of how those cultures think as a whole? In essence, which 'culture' is it that you speak of? The NA/US/EU culture, or the culture as you wish it to be? Because it seems to me, as a kinda outsider, that the responses for and against all of those ideals and such makes it seem like there is no agreed upon 'culture' since everyone is fighting over whether they agree or not even within the NA community itself.