The WOL and Mass Murder

@Delily I'm not sure where you get off making accusations of being overly simplistic and naive. But I suppose my views about the protagonist are colored by not having much love for the faction they belong in. Not being able to gel with a person willing to enter war after war, or manipulating public opinion against such a person, does not seem the impossible task only an ascian can manage.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

@Delily I'm not sure where you get off making accusations of being overly simplistic and naive. But I suppose my views about the protagonist are colored by not having much love for the faction they belong in. Not being able to gel with a person willing to enter war after war, or manipulating public opinion against such a person, does not seem the impossible task only an ascian can manage.

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I'm not sure anyone would think the WoL has some personal vendetta against Garlemand and dragging Eorzea into it and acting is rampantly slaughtering soldier. Especially not after we helped turn the crowds away from executing Fordola. Even if we did have a personal vendetta, no one would care. The Garlean Empire has been running a campaign of conquest for 2 decades now, and if it wasn't for the primals and the huge concentration of aether, they would run rough shod over Eorzea. Also, no one in Eorzea is going to distrust the WoL. Maybe you do because all you can see is someone who kills a lot and is constantly involved in fights, but the people of Eorzea see a hero, a person who has risked his life on multiple occasions to save them, but still has the time to deliver a pie to their grandma.

The reason we're in war after war is because that's the story of the game. We were choosen by Hydaelyn to stop the Ascians, so it makes sense our fight against them is going to involve these big world shaking events. If you don't like that, maybe you should find another game were you're just an adventurer, and not the Hero? Several excellent MMOs have that as a setting.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Not being able to gel with a person willing to enter war after war, or manipulating public opinion against such a person, does not seem the impossible task only an ascian can manage.

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With great power comes great responsibility, that kind of person is much more preferable than someone who would watch other people suffer when they are capable of stopping said suffering.

Well, implicitly even Lolorito was unable to sway public opinion against the Warrior of Light. If he couldn't do it, with all his resources and wealth, I highly doubt anyone in Eorzea could. How hard he was trying, well... nobody knows. But there were rumors being spread that the Warrior of Light was responsible for assassinating Nanamo; nobody believed them, as even Crystal Braves would look the other way when approached. The only real consequence of those rumors was that we were unable to enter the Rising Stones until clearing our names.

Not everyone will get along with the Warrior of Light (or agree with the thin characterization they've been given) - Asahi is testament to that. Buuuuuut I'm also rather convinced they wouldn't let their pride and/or wrath get the better of them and drag Doma and/or Eorzea into a war presuming they'd win. Asahi gave them a perfect opportunity; the Warrior of Light abstained.

Other than that, yeah, I kind of have to agree that having the power to help others gives you some degree of moral obligation to do so regardless of personal cost. Too much Spider-Man growing up will beat that into your head.

As for the Warrior of Light being a "murderhobo?" Ahh... no. They take on mercenary work through the Adventurer's Guild until being noticed by the Scions, none of which is contract killing, and thenceforth dedicate themselves to the safety and security of Eorzea. They are also not hobos; the Warrior of Light can legally purchase property, and if they do not own housing have a room waiting for them at any major city (presumably paid for by the Adventurer's Guild).

Yeah I don't see anyone being able to make us be hated. and alot of it has to do with how OP we are, not that it's a bad thing.. but this plot where we're made out to be killers without shame would never work. I can see other plots happening.. but this isn't one that would work in this storyline. Not how it plays anyway, as noone in the plot would believe it. Hell I'm betting the death count is LOWER than what people think it is. Cause if you take gameplay out of it.. how many people have we ACTUALLY killed? Games do this ALOT and it's actually kindof maddening to me at some points. If I remember correctly a good chunk of deaths are the person in question falling, dying to someone else stealing the final blow, or whatever final hit thing we don't actually do. But that's me going off memory so I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

With great power comes great responsibility, that kind of person is much more preferable than someone who would watch other people suffer when they are capable of stopping said suffering.

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And FFXIV has its own version, stated many many times, usually in the context of its original speaker, Louisoix: "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom, but indolence."

The story has made it fairly clear that this is considered a "good" philosophy (as in it is considered virtuous rather than contentious) within the game, even when it also shows that it can be twisted to causes opposing the player character (particularly in the Coils). So it can be understood to be a good guide on what sort of actions the story would prefer us to take to be a "good guy".

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I AM NOT SAYING IT WOULD BE TRUE. I am saying it would be believeable. How said belief could be set up is the stuff of plots and schemes. Not everyone is privy to the truth of every last deed we do.

I can understand the disconnect people have that the WoL, despite killing quite a lot of people, is still trusted by strangers and given a considerable amount of trust. I honestly don’t feel like continuing the msq, or at least not gung ho anymore to resume playing this sort of character.

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And imo its not believable that our WoL would just start out a war on his own against a whole nation. Thats not how the WoL is written and a lot of stuff until now have been done because we followed others. If everyone ingame would have sayed that nothing should change our WoL would have probably not fought against Thordan or the dragons..maybe we would have gotten some hints from dragons that wanted peace or did some smaller things but most of the stuff right now started because others said that they should happen and the WoL made it possible to do that after it. So them going at Garlemald completely alone makes no sense and even the WoL would stand no chance against a whole nation.

Also this topic is about the question if the WoL is a mass murderer and I think most people dont see them as that. We did kill quite a bunch of people but a lot were in war or in killed or be killed situations. So it makes sense that in a world where death probably happens daily people would not hold a grudge against the WoL for doing their job. It would be different if we are doing that soley for our own gain or if innocent people die constantly but the WoL does not do that so the disconnect probably only exist for those people that read too much into this or want a complete different person. (And I too have some disconnects with my WoL simply because of some cutscene choices but the overall WoL makes sense imo and is just simply a good person)

You also wrote about the big hatred that the WoL has against Garlean people which is imo not part of the canon. I did point out that we have helped countless of other Garlean soliders/people and even went into an alliance with Regula after we saw him kill Ysayle. The WoL would not have done that if they truly hate every single Garlean person. They might have a dislike for the higher ups or for the government but at no point in the story does it show that they hate them.

I'm sorry, ok? I don't want to talk about it anymore.

Just pointing out some weak arguments.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

War is just state sanctioned murder.

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War is a continuation of politics by other means.

Murder is the unlawful, premeditated taking of another's life.

Killing during war is not murder. Since it's kill or be killed, there is really only one option, and when you're on the defensive there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It does get a little muddy, as I'll explain in the following point.

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Originally Posted by Delily

[The Garlean Empire is] an aggressor to Eorzea, and we fight them in that context. If they were to abandon their conquest, we'd stop fighting them.

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Technically this is a lie, but it's a very ~nuanced~ point.

Prior to Stormblood, this was true. Every conflict with the Empire was started by them - I could argue the reasoning behind the Empire's aggression, but I've done so countless times and it's kind of irrelevant to the point - so opposing it was a matter of self-defense, not malice or hatred.

However, while the conflicts of Stormblood were kicked off by Ilberd, there was the option of sitting on it and doing nothing - after all, the Masks were behind the false flag operation, and the Eorzeans ran in trying to put a stop to it. However, while the operation was stopped and Shinryu contained, the damage was already done. The Empire had every reason to believe the Eorzeans had launched an offensive against it, and there were not (and still are not) any diplomatic channels to peacefully resolve the issue. Even if there were, though, it's unlikely the Empire would really care... a convenient excuse is still an excuse, and we know the Empire's goal is global domination. Not doing anything would condemn Eorzea to a grisly fate and, for the Warrior of Light, likely be suicide given the Empire equates Echo users with beastmen.

So Eorzea went on the offense against the Empire in Ala Mhigo since not doing so was far less prudent given the circumstances. The Doman insurrection was also an aggressive move, though like the Ala Mhigan resistance, the grievances driving it were also perfectly understandable.

... but to say that we've only ever acted defensively against the Empire is, technically, a lie. Eorzea launched a preemptive counter-offense; technically, this makes it the aggressor.

The latter point stands, though. Aside from the threat the Garleans present towards Eorzea, they seem largely apathetic towards the Empire's activities (hell, they left Ala Mhigo to rot for two decades and only did something because a madman left them no real choice) and would gladly leave it alone if it stopped threatening them.

Well, we didn't know Shinryu was contained, so the Scions had to go investigate. That would have eventually drawn us into conflict with Zenos, as there is no way we would let a primal stay contained.