If You Were A Class/Job Designer...

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Originally Posted by Violette

But if SE was war's highest dps combo, that would mean OT war... [has] EVEN better [numbers] because it no longer has to trade dps for raid utility.

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^ fixed that for ya.

And PLD would be even "better" if all basic skills got merged into a single skill... But going into a duty and spamming 1 button over and over isn't fun.

It's better numbers, but a poorer design and playstyle

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Originally Posted by winsock

^ fixed that for ya.

And PLD would be even "better" if all basic skills got merged into a single skill... But going into a duty and spamming 1 button over and over isn't fun.

It's better numbers, but a poorer design and playstyle

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Mate what I said the first time was not wrong. Did not need fixing.

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Originally Posted by Violette

Mate what I said the first time was not wrong. Did not need fixing.

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Lies. Better numbers + removal of playstyle depth aren't universally "better", especially in a thread focusing on design.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lies. Better numbers + removal of playstyle depth aren't universally "better", especially in a thread focusing on design.

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How did your "correction" in any way mark a difference in that idea? You chose to read it one way when it could go either way, and then call him out as if he had specified the opposite...

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Why would you loose aggro to WAR on Delieverence, until you are one of those paladins "sorry, forgot shield oath"? And until OT makes a "good job" of OTing in defiance, which is stupid, especially that WAR's enmity stance does not eat up 15% of your max MP and is oGCD.

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Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time? There's literally no reason to use Shield Oath for Blaster or Swindler, even as MT. There's no reason to use Shield Oath during the tiny-gob phases on Ratfinx. There's no reason to be in Shield Oath in Quickthinx unless you're solo-tanking. Even then, only for Uplander Doom (the ones you don't HG the stacks away for). And there's no reason to ever turn Shield Oath on in A8, except to grab snap aggro during phase 2 and the start of final phase.

This, of course, is ignoring the fact that (in general) I pull in Shield Oath and follow:
FB>SB>RoH>FB>RB>SwO>FoF>GB
for every single one of the listed fights, save Ratfinx. I'll also pull in SwO on Quickthinx, ideally, but I need my NIN friend with Shadewalker to do so safely.

Tanking in Sword Oath with a WAR who doesn't manage their enmity in Deliverance makes it /very easy/ to lose hate.


Or am I just supposed to turtle and be a ShO tank because ShO is the tank stance? I tend to like to push my 1k dps on the A6 bosses, even while being MT. I use RoH while in SwO to maintain hate. A Warrior in Deliverance with Berserk up spamming BB will tear that boss right off of me, and there's nothing I can do about it. All I'm saying is that, if this happens, I just let the WAR tank. Manage your aggro or be the MT - that's all there is to it. It's 40 potency to just use a Storm's Path instead of Butcher's Block and not pull hate if you're close. It's a 90 potency drop for me to RoH instead of RA. I'm likely beating the WAR /anyway/ if this is DF, so I can't be arsed to let them be shit.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How did your "correction" in any way mark a difference in that idea? You chose to read it one way when it could go either way, and then call him out as if he had specified the opposite...

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My take on it, with this being a thread about design, was that: "the war design would be better if SE was the damage combo". My counterpoint was that the numbers would be better, but not the design.
If I misinterpreted the message (which I have absolutely made that type of mistake before) I apologize to you Violette. My mistake

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time?

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Me too and yet i never lost aggro, becuase warrior was trying to make biggest dps possible for him. Maybe you should reconsider using different combo rotation?

Changing from BB to SE combo to do not steal aggro is one thing. Loosing aggro, despite the fact, you claim you ain't scared tank is another.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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People who don't really understand the job speak out more than those who do.

There's tons of changes people want, I'm not trying to suggest specifics. The fundamental issue is the way they handled tank balance. DRK is a poorly designed job built around a great idea. It does the trick and has serious advantages, but the design and balance of the classes shouldn't suffer because people who aren't capable of imagining better balancing say things are "fine."

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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WARs are gonna open 3x Fell Cleave if they can. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to force yourself as MT.

You probably won't be MT for Blaster in Savage anyways.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

People who don't really understand the job speak out more than those who do.

There's tons of changes people want, I'm not trying to suggest specifics. The fundamental issue is the way they handled tank balance. DRK is a poorly designed job built around a great idea. It does the trick and has serious advantages, but the design and balance of the classes shouldn't suffer because people who aren't capable of imagining better balancing say things are "fine."

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I know their main draw was basically to make a magic oriented tank class but I feel the execution is rather poor. To me it doesn't "feel like a Dark Knight". Looks the part but I always feel like something is missing.

I see this spiky armor and the magic spikes that come out from Grit and LD and always wonder why we don't have a passive spike damage on damage taken thing going on.