Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

Would you rather be this sort of tank? ;)

http://images.military.com/media/equ...le-tank-02.jpg

Or a brick wall? :confused:

http://images.wisegeek.com/red-brick-wall.jpg




heh heh heh

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

My entire point is a tank who is worried about mitigation will still be doing damage.

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So. The current way of tanks surviving with easily 5k+(from 15k) hp from example: A1S tank buster which hits 24k (if I remember correct) unmitigated?

And 800dps (average that I have seen out of tanks) when dps are pulling 1k dps?

That's not what you just meant with being able to mitigate big hits and dps? That's not how the tanks are just now?

Guess I just misunderstood your points and you're fine with the current way the tanks work.

/shrug

And sure, the tanks with full vit right side can be around 500 dps but quite frankly you're still taking as much dmg you just have more hp, since as far as I know vit = hp not -dmg taken.

Which means we'd need an overhaul on stats and need tank stats added for passive -dmg taken for vit accessories. If you wanted to be the "brick wall"


Edit:

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

ONE THOUSAND THOUSAND DPS

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Do excuse my typo, on phone at breaks from work, can't see everything on the tiny screen, thus signature.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

when dps are pulling 1000k dps?

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ONE THOUSAND THOUSAND DPS

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is server dependent and doesn't mean much overall. The displayed average wait time is less than it was, that much is true. Solo queues still take a lot longer.
DPS are not lesser people for not wanting to tank or heal. The issue is that DPS is a heavily populated role because people in general don't like responsibility for anything in a group, and regardless of how much SE goes out of their way to make DPS jobs unattractive (see: most of the HW DPS designs), this principle will remain true.

Because of said principle DPS is a highly populated role, and anyone who has played MMOs before knows that DPS have longer queues because of it. It's something that comes with the job, just like how a wipe is blamed on the tank and the tank dying is blamed on the healer. What doesn't help is that leveling outside of dungeons in this expansion is either stupidly convoluted with no player control (FATEs) or so inconvenient to even do (temple leves) that you feel the sting of the queues more than usual

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Well according to the Eorzea census role distribution form 31-60 is 38% healer + tank and 62% DPS which is actually pretty darn close to the distribution in a party make up if you factor in the 24 man raids as well. I'd also be willing to bet that the number of tanks has grown since the release of heavensward. So yes, while the data clearly states that DPS is a more popular role, I don't think it's as far off as people realize.

Additionally, from a business standpoint. If all players are paying the same amount of money into a pot then all players should in essence be given the same service. This includes all things in the game. Isn't it SE's contractual commitment, as a service organization in this instance, then to make the experience as similarly enjoyable for all parties? I've never met someone that didn't get excited by a instant queue. I understand that that is the "status quo" in the MMO world. I don't buy though that any company or person should settle for that because its the "status quo".

Maybe that makes me an idealist, but the world needs those too. This board is just filled with pessimism.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Do excuse my typo, on phone at breaks from work, can't see everything on the tiny screen, thus signature.

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It did make me giggle though as I pictured my 1000k DPS in my head :p.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Additionally, from a business standpoint. If all players are paying the same amount of money into a pot then all players should in essence be given the same service. This includes all things in the game. Isn't it SE's contractual commitment, as a service organization in this instance, then to make the experience as similarly enjoyable for all parties? I've never met someone that didn't get excited by a instant queue. I understand that that is the "status quo" in the MMO world. I don't buy though that any company or person should settle for that because its the "status quo".

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The only thing SE is contracted to do is provide a service. "Enjoyable" is very subjective, because you may enjoy standing in the back and healing or spamming buffs, whereas I generally dislike that gameplay (one of the reasons I avoid playing healers). There's no guarantee of anything other than our ability to log on to the servers for the money we pay SE.

There are such things as structure and human nature, both of which determine the status quo. People don't like responsibility, so they'll go for the stuff that has the least responsibility in effective gameplay, which in MMO terms is the role of DPS. At rare times you have either mechanics making someone play a less popular role or the class concept overpowering that desire to avoid responsibility. This isn't something you try to force or manipulate. It's something that just happens, and you should keep in mind it won't happen all the time.

Personally, I'd like to return to a time when this was funny and something only an idiot would do, instead of having all tanks try to emulate it because design allows us to do so and we can get away with it.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

So. The current way of tanks surviving with easily 5k+(from 15k) hp from example: A1S tank buster which hits 24k (if I remember correct) unmitigated?

And 800dps (average that I have seen out of tanks) when dps are pulling 1000k dps?

That's not what you just meant with being able to mitigate big hits and dps? That's not how the tanks are just now?

Guess I just misunderstood your points and you're fine with the current way the tanks work.

/shrug

And sure, the tanks with full vit right side can be around 500 dps but quite frankly you're still taking as much dmg you just have more hp, since as far as I know vit = hp not -dmg taken.

Which means we'd need an overhaul on stats and need tank stats added for passive -dmg taken for vit accessories. If you wanted to be the "brick wall"

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The situation as it stands right now allows what you are describing. There is no need for high vitality and players can stack strength so their tanks can pull 800 dps. We are in agreement at this point.

The problem is stacking strength is the only gear strategy.

For players like me, who are coming in from other MMOs with more conventional tanks, it feels wrong. I am used to focusing on damage mitigation a lot more. Players mockingly call this as a desire to be a "brick wall." As if I want to be an immobile obstacle for mobs to walk around.

It is not that at all.

What I want to be is a paladin as it is described in the job lore: "Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense... To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built."

To be that kind of tank, would not require an overhaul of stats. It would simply require tank busters to hit for more damage so the damage mitigation tools at my disposal (including my gear) become more important. As I continued to survive, I would feel rewarded for my good play and good gearing choices.

In short, I don't want to be a passive brick wall. I want to be an active shield and sword!

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Originally Posted by Duelle

snip

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I'm not speaking of the classes themselves. I understand that those enjoyments are subjective to the nature of the person that is playing. Otherwise the whole formula of sectioned specialties would be worthless. This can also be applied to the whole tank conundrum as a whole.

I'm speaking simply of wait times. I don't think you can find me a person that likes waiting in a line if another option can be had.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

The situation as it stands right now allows what you are describing. There is no need for high vitality and players can stack strength so their tanks can pull 800 dps. We are in agreement at this point.

The problem is stacking strength is the only gear strategy.

For players like me, who are coming in from other MMOs with more conventional tanks, it feels wrong. I am used to focusing on damage mitigation a lot more. Players mockingly call this as a desire to be a "brick wall." As if I want to be an immobile obstacle for mobs to walk around.

It is not that at all.

What I want to be is a paladin as it is described in the job lore: "Known as paladins, these men and women marry exquisite swordplay with stalwart shieldwork to create a style of combat uncompromising in its defense... To be a paladin is to protect, and those who choose to walk this path will become the iron foundation upon which the party's defense is built."

To be that kind of tank, would not require an overhaul of stats. It would simply require tank busters to hit for more damage so the damage mitigation tools at my disposal (including my gear) become more important. As I continued to survive, I would feel rewarded for my good play and good gearing choices.

In short, I don't want to be a passive brick wall. I want to be an active shield and sword!

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I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate anyway :p

Making mobs hit hard could be a viable option in alot of games, but this one it would be far less effective. The problem with that is gear scaling.

The vertical progression of gear in this game makes for a steep climb in statistical attributes for all classes. If you were to take a tank buster on a boss and make it hit for 18k instead of 10k then that would indeed force tanks to mitigate the damage more, but the problem lies in gearing. Now if the tank has to gear vit at a substantially high ilvl to even make that threshhold then you might be putting an undue burden on the tank class to even enter the instance in comparison to other classes. If its not at the higher end of the ilvl spectrum then the problem would be the same as we have now. Tanks would still gear enough vit to survive and then gear STR as it would be more effective.

The other option would be to boost the amount of auto attacks, or the damage over time to the tank. This is a better option I feel as it would force both the tank and the healer to focus on the mitigation of damage over the course of the fight. This would recquire that some of the passive defensive secondary stats get a much needed boost to make them worthwhile. However, the DPS threshold for fights would have to be significantly lowered to accomidate this whole methedology and then you have the exact same issue with DPS gearing. If you did it at the high end of the spectrum you would be gating all but the most geared DPS players and if you did it at the low then you would be undermining the difficulty of the encounter for their tastes.

It's a vexing problem that they have created with the current meta and stat growth.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

It's a vexing problem that they have created with the current meta and stat growth.

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The trick, as always, is to find some balance somewhere in the middle. Right now, Savage is tuned toward various extremes. Incoming tank damage is at the extreme low-end (relative to achievable gear), while the DPS checks are tuned at the extreme high end. It's as though they anticipated different baseline gear levels for tanks (with respect to VIT) than they did for everyone else. Full i190 VIT isn't necessary at all for the incoming damage, DPS definitely need full i190 in *their* gear for the DPS checks. Since tanks don't have a pressing need for about half of their VIT gear, they can instead pick up DPS gear and effectively raise the raid's item level with respect to the content.

It's a weird state we're in. Hopefully with whatever adjustments they're making for 3.2, they better establish their gearing baselines for the raid design.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

snippity

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There's another force at work though too. Thats the major increases in damage and survivability that even a 10 ilvl jump affords. That extreme jump in effectivness you receive when that happens is also a problem. Not only does a happy medium need to be achieved in the fight meta, but also a tuning down in how much an ilvl is worth to make encounters more difficult and balanced for longer periods of time.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

There's another force at work though too. Thats the major increases in damage and survivability that even a 10 ilvl jump affords. That extreme jump in effectivness you receive when that happens is also a problem. Not only does a happy medium need to be achieved in the fight meta, but also a tuning down in how much an ilvl is worth to make encounters more difficult and balance for longer periods of time.

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I'd agree with that, yes. To be honest, I always thought they should have made the standard upgrade 5 item levels, rather than 10, especially since stats have exponential curves. That's especially important for VIT, I think, since it gives about 20 HP per point at 60 and gave about 15 per point at 50, if I'm recalling things right.