Difficulty of normal content.

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Originally Posted by KaninUlam

I don't understand how someone can level their job to 100 and still doesn't know how to play this game.

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the vast majority of level 100's don't know how to play the game. you aren't actually taught how to play just by playing through the msq.

There's people that have joined FFXIV from other games and within a month are going through savage/ultimate. It's not that the content is difficult. It's your refusal to learn. You have access to same exact resources that world first racers do and always have. If this content if difficult to you after playing for 6 years then you have straight out refused to learn how to ACTUALLY play the game.

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Originally Posted by MajikkuHitomi

Play Tetris

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Play island sanctuary

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Originally Posted by holydiver1286

There's people that have joined FFXIV from other games and within a month are going through savage/ultimate. It's not that the content is difficult. It's your refusal to learn. You have access to same exact resources that world first racers do and always have. If this content if difficult to you after playing for 6 years then you have straight out refused to learn how to ACTUALLY play the game.

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I've been playing for two years, back during the "easy" EW normal content, I haven't touched savage content at all and have stopped doing extremes since 6 months ago

I beat the fights first try. Spending a lot of time in this game is not an excuse to act like you have the superior opinion

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I was completely hopeless at my first run through these new raids. I guess I'll concede that I'm really quite bad with adapting to new content in this game, which is entirely down to me. And I know I need to do better.

However, all these "skill issue" and angry replies are really disappointing - I mean, there are a few 'it's okay to struggle' comments here and there but otherwise quite a few of the replies are overly aggressive and derogatory (toward the OP) and there is just no need for that. And that's a damn shame, because I don't think we should be creating this idea that it's NOT okay to say "I don't find this easy". Granted, the way the OP presented the post might have aggravated the situation by, basically, calling for a nerf (which some clearly took a high degree of offense to) - but nonetheless, I don't think there was any need for the numerous, sometimes insulting, "skill issue" type replies that people felt the need to add to the already growing number.
I mean, what IS this mindset of "I find it easy, so you should too!" anyway?

As already said, I suck at the game and whilst I don't really completely stink at knowing my job rotations, I am way too slow learning mechanics - however, that's something that I need to deal with and not something the Devs should adapt to suit my (low) skill level.

But I still don't think we should be discouraging anyone from admitting that they don't find the game easy.

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Honestly I think a lot of ppl being overly hostile are just trolls, or people who really don't want normal content to be a snoozefest again so they vent their frustrations here

Did you know that spending time on something is not the same as learning? I could spend 20 years trying to read a Latin text but unless I learn Latin I'll be just as clueless at the end of those 20 years as when I started. This content really isn't hard. Is it harder than EW? Yeah. EW was absolutely trivial in difficulty outside of extremes and savages - and even the extremes were pretty tame.

If you haven't naturally picked up on enough game knowledge to find this an appropriate challenge at this point, then this isn't your sign to complain on the forums that it is too hard - this is your sign to learn and improve. It doesn't matter if you've played for 10 years or 10 weeks, you should be able to handle this at this point. And if you can't...

Go talk to some players who find it easy. Ask them if they can help you. You'll find that a majority of endgame players are passionate about this game and love helping people. Accept that you aren't good at the game, accept that you need to learn, and then learn. It's okay. I sucked at this game at first too.

For the first time in probably 4 expansions we have normal mode raids that are an appropriate challenge that can serve as a meaningful bridge to get people from the easy casual content to things like extremes and beyond. This content is likely for you, and you just don't realize it yet. I believe in you. Go improve, kick some ass, and feel proud of yourself.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

the vast majority of level 100's don't know how to play the game. you aren't actually taught how to play just by playing through the msq.

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I don't entirely agree with this. The msq doesn't teach you your rotation, or how to be good at your job, but it teaches you how certain mechanics and telegraph work. Almost every mechanic in the first two fights (the only ones OP did) is used earlier and more leniently in the msq. Towers, stack markers, aoe patterns that you have to memorize, half room cleaves, line aoes rotating through the boss, it's all the same stuff repackaged in a new way. Hell, the donut/line cleave aoes that the second boss does are straight out of barbaricia. The only actually new mechanic I can think of is the launch the first boss does. Since there's no dps check in these fights, I would say 10 years of msq does a more than adequate job training players for them

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Originally Posted by MakariaZofura

The problem with being a mentor is that 10% of the time you give advice.

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FUCK. 10%? NA really is the wholesome data-cluster, on EU it's closer to 25-30% of the time in my experience.

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

I would say 10 years of msq does a more than adequate job training players for them

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If this were true, someone like OP wouldn't exist. The mere fact that OP unironically doesn't even want to queue for normal m3 and m4 because it's "too had for casuals" is proof that MSQ doesn't sufficiently teach people how to play game. I'll admit where one draws their "knows how to play the game" line is subjective, I still think getting to max level and people being lost like OP, doesn't make the MSQ teaches you how to play the game, all that compelling of an argument imo

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Originally Posted by Bryson

If this were true, someone like OP wouldn't exist. The mere fact that OP unironically doesn't even want to queue for normal m3 and m4 because it's "too had for casuals" is proof that MSQ doesn't sufficiently teach people how to play game. I'll admit where one draws their "knows how to play the game" line is subjective, I still think getting to max level and people being lost like OP, doesn't make the MSQ teaches you how to play the game, all that compelling of an argument imo

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I would argue that it's not the MSQ being a poor teacher as much as some players being poor students and being unwilling to learn, as OP has basically stated that they are. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

I would argue that it's not the MSQ being a poor teacher as much as some players being poor students and being unwilling to learn, as OP has basically stated that they are. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

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Sure, this could be the case. I don't think the 2 are necessarily mutually exclusive either. I'd argue someone like OP shouldn't have even been able to reach max lvl.. I think the game should be more difficult early on, to force people to learn. Instead of allowing the game to be so incredibly braindead, that lvl 100's can continue to be this lost, bad, entitled etc etc

I have to say, the level of mediocrity here is quite astonishing. The game isn't that difficult, and while Dawntrail's increased difficulty level took me by surprise, it's honestly a good thing. It forces players to think, and there's nothing wrong with that. Complaining about having to use your brain to play a game defeats the purpose of playing, doesn't it? As a healer, it's incredibly rewarding to use my entire kit even in dungeons. It's nice to have meaningful things to do for once.

Regarding normal raids, they are optional. While some might disagree, I personally view normal raids as lower-tier midcore content, with extremes being firmly midcore (though admittedly easy for some). The MSQ, dungeons, and expert dungeons fall into casual content, though even expert dungeons are considered optional.

Let's remember that this was literally day one. No one knows how to get through new content immediately. I promise that after the first week, it will be easy as pie. Even on a second attempt, once you've seen the mechanics, it's not that difficult. The intentional jump in difficulty was designed to be more challenging, but still accessible to casual players. Honestly, I would have been majorly disappointed if the devs hadn't increased the difficulty. It gets tiresome doing the same dodging over and over again. This forces me to be quick on my feet, and I, for one, welcome these changes with open arms.

This is a huge case of people essentially complaining about getting exactly what they asked for.

People complained about EW dungeons and casual content being too easy, so they amped up the difficulty. Now people are complaining about the game being too hard. Healers are complaining that tank self-sustain is too strong in casual content, making them unnecessary. Now we have casual content that actually makes tanks require their healers to be on their A-Game.

Which brings me to the point of the fact that most people making these complaints don't even have an A-Game to begin with. Yes, there are some valid criticisms and complaints going on with everything but if you've been playing this game across multiple expansions and reached level 100 without buying skip potions, then why should things continue to be dumbed down for you? You've clearly put the time and effort in to invest into this game, and the game and its creators will rightly assume that if you put that much time and energy into the game, then you likely have an understanding of the game's fundamental systems and don't need to be coddled. It's time to take the training wheels off.

After 300+ hours of playtime, I cannot think of reasons beyond physical or mental disability to explain why you are still struggling with mechanics that are often the same thing we've seen a million times already in shiny new wrapping paper. And even then, I've seen someone IN THIS THREAD state that they have physical disabilities and still enjoy the rise in difficulty.
Most of these complaints will end up being moot anyways when we increase gear level to points that trivialize the difficulty as we grow in power.

It hasn't even been a full week yet with the new raids and people are already complaining about how hard it is. And all I can think about in regards to this whole situation is how we wanted fights to actually give us a challenge, and now that we got that challenge, people are complaining. And the only thing I can see coming from this is Yoshi-P making the same pained face he made when we asked for housing on the moon RIGHT when the devs finished housing in Ishgard.

All the devs are gonna take away from this is that we'll never be happy even when they give us what we ask for.

So maybe stop complaining, and follow the wise words of an old sage;

Git Gud.

After having a. Expansion of easy content its nice to get back to what we're used to from this game. I just aak players please just get better.

Do not give in YoshiP. The difficulty of Dawntrail is perfect for normal content. People need to learn, not the mechanics, but that is OK to struggle in content, not the end of the world. The content needs to be engaging. Everything we had in the past was BORING. Terribly boring. This is also level 100, at some point people need to pay attention to mechanics.
Perfect balance: Mechanics easy to execute, but have to pay attention to what the boss is doing and react accordingly. There isn't even a dps check!

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Originally Posted by Bryson

Sure, this could be the case. I don't think the 2 are necessarily mutually exclusive either. I'd argue someone like OP shouldn't have even been able to reach max lvl.. I think the game should be more difficult early on, to force people to learn. Instead of allowing the game to be so incredibly braindead, that lvl 100's can continue to be this lost, bad, entitled etc etc

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That's totally fair, though I think the amount of extra dev work that'd have to be put into making earlier content difficult, and maintaining that difficulty might be too much for it to be realistic. A lot of early fights used to be relatively hard and were never nerfed, they were just outgeared to the point of triviality. I suppose a relatively easy fix would be to enforce ilvl sync on key fights like Thordan, Nidhogg, and Shinryu, and I think the game would be better for it in multiple aspects. So yea ultimately I agree, it's probably a little of column a and a little of column b here.

R1-4 were "hard" sure but they were definitely pretty easy, casual is not "brain off clear go next", thats what you want, casual is just people that just do what they want.

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Originally Posted by Dinivaas

This is a huge case of people essentially complaining about getting exactly what they asked for.

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The people complaining about it being difficult are not the same people who were complaining about it being too easy before. They're different people asking for different things.

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Now we have casual content that actually makes tanks require their healers to be on their A-Game.

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lol no

Stop making excuses and just learn the damn mechanics. You're a bunch of human being that has the ability and the capacity to adapt and learn.

It's okay to be Emotionally Upset
https://youtu.be/1LZKVDuVhHs

Sounds like skill issue /shrug

no
/thread

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Originally Posted by Dinivaas

This is a huge case of people essentially complaining about getting exactly what they asked for.

People complained about EW dungeons and casual content being too easy, so they amped up the difficulty. Now people are complaining about the game being too hard. Healers are complaining that tank self-sustain is too strong in casual content, making them unnecessary. Now we have casual content that actually makes tanks require their healers to be on their A-Game.

Which brings me to the point of the fact that most people making these complaints don't even have an A-Game to begin with. Yes, there are some valid criticisms and complaints going on with everything but if you've been playing this game across multiple expansions and reached level 100 without buying skip potions, then why should things continue to be dumbed down for you? You've clearly put the time and effort in to invest into this game, and the game and its creators will rightly assume that if you put that much time and energy into the game, then you likely have an understanding of the game's fundamental systems and don't need to be coddled. It's time to take the training wheels off.

After 300+ hours of playtime, I cannot think of reasons beyond physical or mental disability to explain why you are still struggling with mechanics that are often the same thing we've seen a million times already in shiny new wrapping paper. And even then, I've seen someone IN THIS THREAD state that they have physical disabilities and still enjoy the rise in difficulty.
Most of these complaints will end up being moot anyways when we increase gear level to points that trivialize the difficulty as we grow in power.

It hasn't even been a full week yet with the new raids and people are already complaining about how hard it is. And all I can think about in regards to this whole situation is how we wanted fights to actually give us a challenge, and now that we got that challenge, people are complaining. And the only thing I can see coming from this is Yoshi-P making the same pained face he made when we asked for housing on the moon RIGHT when the devs finished housing in Ishgard.

All the devs are gonna take away from this is that we'll never be happy even when they give us what we ask for.

So maybe stop complaining, and follow the wise words of an old sage;

Git Gud.

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Just want to reply with a word of advice - this group of players complaining is a very small part of the community and not the same part that was advocating for this level of difficulty. I think that's fairly evident from the 500 or so replies dogpiling OP and the handful of other turbo casuals in this thread. The majority of the community wants this, was vocal about it, and now that we have it we are vocal about keeping it. No game community is a monolith and we are seeing that in real time in this thread.

VERY funny how so many people treat the OFFICIAL FORUMS as their little safe space for fringe opinions and the moment any thread gets more traction than a car on ice, they cry brigading of toxic elitists.

News flash: the official forums is not what most people visit on the daily to discuss issues, and when bad opinions are said in a place where the devs look, you deserve ridicule and thank god people post to other places where more people can get eyes on such a bad opinion.

I've literally never stepped foot into a savage or ex until I can unsync solo it. I say that to show that I'm extremely casual, I get on level my jobs, do my roulettes, hang out with friends and that's about it. This normal raid tier is 100% perfectly fine. It wasn't difficult at all, mechanics made sense and were easy to follow. I healed all 4 and the biggest problem was just learning the fight. The dots aren't overly punishing they can be healed through with a medica 3 easily enough. Every week this will get easier because people will know the fights and be able to do the mechanics appropriately. This is not difficult content by any stretch of the imagination.

For those who enjoy challenges, its nice to see some mechanics that have some bite and keep me on my toes.
Square has done and amazing job with how they've keep innovating new ways to use their systems, the encoutners are the strongest part of this expansion by malms.
What you're experiencing is what Savage raiders feel whenever they walk into a new boss fight, and then they practice and try and fail for months and months and months until it becomes second nature, like any coreographed routine.
Welcome to having to work for the clear :-).
Keep at it an you will come to find hard work and dedication is a completely different kind of rewarding.

SE, if you nerf normal content even for a little bit, I'll make an angry post saying that you should turn it back at it was in DT. So don't.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrosi

If I may, for future reference...

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You absolutely may, and it's greatly appreciated! Thanks! I'll have to remember that next time I'm in there.

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Originally Posted by Echidna-Lefex

I've literally never stepped foot into a savage or ex until I can unsync solo it. I say that to show that I'm extremely casual...

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Same boat here. I've done a bit of Coils and a bit of Alexander Savage Solo. Only started a couple of years ago during Endwalker. So far, Arcadion's been the most fun I've had in this game.

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I have to disagree with others that have stated that the game doesn't teach you mechanics well. Hell, the bosses all do weaker forms of their later attacks for you to observe and learn, so that you can use your magical human brain computers later to analyze and deal with combinations and harder versions of said attacks. And again, most of these attacks are no different than attacks that have shown up dozens of times in earlier instances. (Honey B. completely stealing a couple of Barbariccia's attacks... and you HAD TO get past her to even get into Dawntrail in the first place!)

Is it time? Can we finally say git gud in FF14 normal raids?

I am a filthy casual peasant that hardly plays endgame content and the only wipe we had on our very first run of day one raids was on the first fight when half the group fell through the floor. We didn't fall through the floor again. The normal raids are easy, what in the world are you smoking? I get that not everyone can not stand in the fire but that's on you, not the game. You know the trick? Learn the fight. There is a grand total of 0 RNG in the mechanics other than the position of the no-no circles. Just learn to not stand in the no-no circles and who gets the arrows. It may take a couple passes but you'll get it.

Also who on earth expects "chill content" out of RAIDS? Raids used to be notoriously difficult in past MMOs which is why the term has carried over to other MMOs for their harder endgame group content. Raids are meant to be more difficult. Difficult is supposed to be what raids are about as it has always been. Don't try to bring the rest of us down to your level. You don't like it, don't raid. Simple as.

This filthy casual love the direction SE is taking with normal content. I am excited to repeat M2. 10/10 would dodge hearts again.

I have never progged savage/extreme content once in all my time playing the game, but I found myself honestly being a bit disappointed with Pandaemonium after Eden. Like many people have said, normal raids are bridging the gap between normal and savage content, which means it naturally should be more demanding than any other normal content/trial.

If anything, those overlapping mechanics are meant to give you a taste for what savages are like while still being manageable for the AVERAGE player. I'd argue that a truly casual player is not necessarily an average player. When I think casual, I think of someone who hops back into the game for MSQ, maybe dabbles with crafting or other minor side content and either gposes/rps or waits for more msq to drop. I'd argue that if you can't handle the raids and you consider yourself a casual player, that's by design, and it's okay. You don't have to do them, they aren't vital to understanding the MSQ, they're purely extra content. I'm very pleasantly surprised that this normal raid tier has been asking more from me as a player, to pay attention and understand what happened to me when a mechanic hit me so that I can overcome it. I died several times (playing off tank), and my duty finder parties wiped a couple of times, but that's okay. Dying and wiping a couple times isn't the end of the world, especially if you take it as a learning experience. If you refuse to engage with those very understandable mechanics, I fear that it's just not for you and you should just accept it rather than try to lessen the experience for those that want harder side content that's a few steps below savage.

The content in Dawntrail has been refreshing. I could literally do gacha dailies or watch a movie in most content in Endwalker.

Golbez EX is probably the only fight in the entire expansion that I thought was actually difficult and needed practice (aside from obvious ones like Criterion dungeons/ultimates/savages).

You're having difficulty and that's good. It's a challenge but the mechanics in *any* of the content you're required to do such as MSQ dungeons and normal trials are not hard. They're mechanics you've seen before, just stacked together in easily noticeable patterns. Dying a few times sure, being *unable* to progress? No shot. They are not to that level of difficulty.

The actual problem here is that EARLY game content that used to teach easier variants of more difficult content got dumbed down. Things like Thornmarch EX which is actual brain dead content now used to have mechanics that taught sprouts what to expect in harder content.

Also, the new raids are fantastic. The first raid is incredibly easy and almost braindead in difficulty but it's still fun. The second one took me a few tries to not die but the third and fourth one? Chefs kiss. Beautiful fight.

The optional dungeons? First few runs of those were a bit rough, they had some more difficult mechanics. But once you've done them 2 or 3 times, they're cake walks too. Fun ones. Mob packs hit hard again and have actual mechanics. AOE Frontal cleaves, heal checks, etc. Thank god lol.

The content doesn't need to be lowered in difficulty. It needs to possibly increase a bit more. You need more practice.

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Darkmoon

This is not the community I have grown to love, These people don't care about anyone's experience but their own!

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Right back at you. You only care about YOUR experience.

What about us that actually enjoy these changes in "casual" content where we actually don't fall asleep facerolling through it. Don't you care about our experience?
It seems like you only care about YOUR experience after all huh?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'm reminded of a philosophy from the training of surgeons: "See one, do one, teach one." See a mechanic played out once. Do the mechanic yourself once. Teach the mechanic to someone else once (or, be prepared to, anyway). This approach has carried me through Dawntrail just fine.

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I had to quote this, as this is one of the most important points made in the entire topic so far. In 1.0 and 2.0 this was very important for various fights. I'm reminded of the first boss in the lvl 50 dungeon Amdapor Keep. The demon wall that, believe it or not, many people had trouble getting past simply because they weren't geared well enough, or they weren't paying attention to mechanics and dying too much (which as we all know means weakness or straight out lost due to going in the pit). It was very rare at first to see many get this boss down before it was halfway across the bridge, people struggled with it until better gear was acquired and now it is trivial.


TCoB was also very punishing due to context specific mechanics at times, something many people couldn't do. This was before they came out with Savage fights. The Hard Primal fights, not to be confused with EX, just hard were daunting to some until they learned there was a pattern and could move accordingly. By the time Stormblood was ending, you were starting to see many harder fights in 'normal content' being phased out. Shadowbringers brought in the numerous high raid damage mechanics, which as far as I'm concerned is a cheap difficulty hurdle on the developments end. Seeing them bring in actual mechanics where getting hit too much, or taking too many of a type of mechanic does now affect you causing you to want to learn how to avoid it. If anything, dungeons should be a stepping stone to learning mechanics that will show up in harder fights and make it very clear if you don't learn them, you will die or will adversely affect the rest of the team. This helps people learn if they are fine with just being casual on the game, or if they should desire to really see how punishing mechanics can be and strive to go into EX/Savage without having a crippling difference in difficulty.

I agree with you on the MSQ doesn't teach that well (anymore). It used to have more difficult content and the side content used to be harder as well. Somewhere along the line a lot of things got nerfed and "easy" and "very easy" versions of solo instances got added. Those solo duties at normal difficulty provide the tools to learn, but if someone fails and auto selects very easy... they're not going to learn.

The example I used was Thornmarch EX (maybe not the best example because it is still technically an EX). It got nerfed so hard that it no longer really teaches any mechanics. It used to actually teach sprouts some easier versions of harder mechanics they'd experience later.

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Originally Posted by Deslyxic

One does not choose what bothers oneself, it just does.

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Actually, you literally can choose what bothers you. You can choose to sit and stew in it or let it roll off your back. FFS...

Cleared arcadion for the first time tonight, we had two wipes in four bosses, me and 3 of my friends went in completely blind.
This was the most fun I've had in ffxiv in content that isn't story in a very long time, if not forever.
We're also pretty casual, I play a lot but am mostly a crafting/leveling/dungeon person, and my friends have lives and responsibilities, so they have about 4h/day. ;o;
Such high quality fights! And I could deduce most of the mechanics on first try. Like, it's okay if it's too hard for you, but it's perfect for me and my friends.
I'm sorry you few feel excluded by this, but if they cater to you, it won't be as good for me and my friends and I'm not naive enough to think there's a perfect compromise. :P

Haven't done Arcadion as of yet, but the difficulty's been a refreshing change from Endwalker.

That being said though, I do think there needs to be an acknowledgement that people can find some mechanics trivially easy, and yet also find other mechanics almost impossible to understand, even in the same encounter. For example, I can't do E7N Portals to save my life, but throw me a Flood Ray or Dominion, and I'll be comfy.

Also, it takes failure to get better as a player, and that's always been the fundamental truth. Every Hardcore Raider will tell you that they've wiped tens of thousands of times, and even caused their own fair share of those wipes.

get good :)

At the beginning I found the mechanics in the dungeons/raids and trials more than just random. It was as if they were slapped onto the boss without thinking about it and left untouched.

I hardly died because you understand the mechanics relatively quickly if you take a closer look at them.
You start the game at level 1 and run through countless dungeons/raids and trials up to 100, so that you almost fall asleep in the HIGH LEVEL CONTANT, as the mechanics are repeated throughout and sometimes look visually different.

I know! There are also players who still find it difficult, they can always seek help in the chat or group finder. There are enough other players who are happy to help if someone needs help, but don't call the content at MAXIMUM level (100!!!) “it's too hard” “I can't run around headless without dying” “crying noises”, because that's exactly what breaks the game. In Endwalker I was more than just frustrated because the content got easier and easier. FF14 is meant to get harder as you level up. That's how games are! If you want to play mindlessly, install Candy Crush.