Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

Emet Selch himself showed exactly what Hydaelyn did when he was explaining it in SHB when he created that clone of Ryne. That didnt involve killing her.

He says, "if she were to strike you," while looking at Ryne and then snaps his fingers. A second Ryne materializes right next to her. "Two individual, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength , intelligence, the soul itself- all is halved."

Which by the way before that he states plainly that she was summoned to enervate him.

Enervate: cause (someone) to feel drained of energy or vitality; weaken.

Return to Eulmore in the journal

---

Whilst I know which cutscene you're referring to, could it be considered with complete certainty to be an exact replication of what may have happened? Or just a simple illustration to accompany Emet's story? As you know, Ryne herself wasn't affected in any way because it was only a demonstration. Hence, any after effects that may have applied had it been true wouldn't have been depicted. For example, if sundering had caused the individual to lose their memory or undergo an entire personality change, it wouldn't have been shown; True Ryne would still maintain her own personality because she wasn't sundered. The second Ryne would only depict identical looks, not any hidden effects. We would have to rely on Emet's description and, whilst he listed one or two effects, he couldn't realistically list everything.

I wish we knew more...

An illustration can still correctly reenact something that happens. Remember he was alive when the events took place. He saw the effect it had. He does say that no one remembered what happened to Amaurot and the lives they held before hand, but that took time for it to fade.

It was shown that their memories weren't completely destroyed, did they remember every single tiny detail I doubt it but then let me ask you this do you remember every tiny detail of your life? I sure dont. Btw the proof about remembering is shown at the end of the Qitana Ravel. Someone had to make those cave drawings and during that Emet even said that over time their memories faded not that it happened as soon as the sundering occured.

Btw he didnt need to include all the effects he summed everything up when he said everything was halved. You honestly can not get anything else from him saying "All [ sic ] is halved"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

An illustration can still correctly reenact something that happens. Remember he was alive when the events took place. He saw the effect it had. He does say that no one remembered what happened to Amaurot and the lives they held before hand, but that took time for it to fade.

It was shown that their memories weren't completely destroyed, did they remember every single tiny detail I doubt it but then let me ask you this do you remember every tiny detail of your life? I sure dont. Btw the proof about remembering is shown at the end of the Qitana Ravel. Someone had to make those cave drawings and during that Emet even said that over time their memories faded not that it happened as soon as the sundering occured.

Btw he didnt need to include all the effects he summed everything up when he said everything was halved. You honestly can not get anything else from him saying "All [ sic ] is halved"

---

I see. So Ryne was split into fourteen (as an example) but the original Ryne didn't change in any way except that she became physically weaker? She kept all her memories? So the other thirteen Rynes that suddenly appeared on thirteen shards, did they have her memories too? Why weren't the memories split if - as you say Emet said - all were 'halved'? Surely that means memories, intelligence, everything? How are any of these people still Ryne if everything that made them Ryne has been divided by fourteen? If the original Ryne remembers everything, as do all the thousands of other original entities, why don't they write down what happened, teach it to their children and grandchildren so it doesn't get forgotten? Why doesn't it become the supremely important thing EVERYONE has to remember?

As I recall, even Hydaelyn's existence has become forgotten for the most part, as have the Ascians, and Zodiark is completely gone. The cave paintings in the temple never have their origin explained, and that has always bothered me. Knowing where these came from would go a long way to answering a lot of questions. How do we know an Ascian didn't make them? How do we know someone didn't make them after being told 'an old legend' by an Ascian? We don't ....

People have talked about Emet Selch's total disregard for anything and anyone else, but this is not how I remember him. I remember him repeatedly expressing his wish that the WoL doesn't fail this time, that they prove strong enough. I remember him repeatedly raging that mortals aren't fit to be stewards of 'this star' because of their failures and wars and so on. Yes, he dismissed mortal races as useless but at the same time he very much seemed to want the WoL to prove they were NOT useless. I have no idea what he would have done if we had shown ourselves strong enough to contain the light because of course we weren't strong enough.

He was a very tortured character who, I think, only endured as long as he did because he'd been tempered. I think he would have given up long before if not for that. He was seeking to recover the people and the city he loved, and his tempering used that to drive him. At the end, after our blade of light tore through him, it felt to me as though his tempering faltered, and he died as himself, no longer bitter and driven by hatred but seeking only that Amaurot be remembered.

Dismissing him as a genocidal maniac, end of story, seems very much to be missing the whole point of him. I readily admit I've never been a willing member of Team Hydaelyn, my WoL has always fought battles for other people, for friends, and so on. She doesn't like being used by any kind of external power, even if it is a deity. So she's happy to think Hydaelyn is no better than any other player in this aeons long game. No worse, either, of course. I'm not casting Her as the villain. She feels more to me like a computer program that started running a bit wonky as soon as its creator died.

Eladie, who's to say that nothing was written down? For the source and especially in Eorzea which was ground zero for EVERY single Calamity that the Ascians what could have possible survived intact. Memories again fade over time which Emet said so himself again. And if something has been destroyed repeatedly and having to be constantly rebuilt, you start finding it harder and harder to keep things as a reminder. Also oral tradition isn't the most reliable way to hand things down either. Have you ever played the game called telephone?

The premises of the game is to get a group of people together in a circle or a line which ever you want and whisper to one person a random phrase. They then in turn whisper it to the next and so on and so forth until it gets to the very last person. Once they hear what is said to them they speak it aloud. It is NEVER exactly as it was said by the first person. Usually there's a good laugh.

Hell a perfect example that I'm going to bring up again is the covenant between Midgardsormer and Hydaelyn. It went from her making a one with him to (at one point I thought it was just a goddess of the 12) to two of the twelve forming that covenant with him. (the quest that the keeper of the lake dungeon is in)

Emet Selch straight up and said that the beings on that star were nothing fragments monstrosities and not even considered to be alive (again Return to Eulmore) and that he had absolutely no compuncture when it came to killing them.

You also seem to be forgetting that the WoL is a sundered Ancient whome he actually recognized also he only decided to form an alliance with them after he realized that our character came to the first to stop a rejoining. Which he kinda does go on a tangent about us killing lightwardens Willy nilly [ sic ]. He was also so very much wanting to use us (maybe some small altruism on that but in his words he's still an ascian and still doing what he can to cause a rejoining) .

I dont see him as tortured, sympathetic yes for him carrying with the same grief for thousands of years and letting it consume him for all this time. I understand his loss completely having just lost my mother last year, but would I go about trying to bring her back the same way he is doing it for his people if I were in his position too.... no I wouldn't because the cost is too high and there is no guarantee that she herself would be the same.

Hell I doubt Zodiark would even be able to bring back Emet's lost people the way he wants him to. I'm kinda getting a sinking suspicion that it may end up being just like when Lakshmi brought back that Snake woman's dead daughter to life. An empty husk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

An illustration can still correctly reenact something that happens. Remember he was alive when the events took place. He saw the effect it had. He does say that no one remembered what happened to Amaurot and the lives they held before hand, but that took time for it to fade.

It was shown that their memories weren't completely destroyed, did they remember every single tiny detail I doubt it but then let me ask you this do you remember every tiny detail of your life? I sure dont. Btw the proof about remembering is shown at the end of the Qitana Ravel. Someone had to make those cave drawings and during that Emet even said that over time their memories faded not that it happened as soon as the sundering occured.

Btw he didnt need to include all the effects he summed everything up when he said everything was halved. You honestly can not get anything else from him saying "All [ sic ] is halved"

---

It's not that I'm doubting the accuracy of Emet's knowledge of events, rather whether he told us everything. Whether his description of sundering included absolutely everything there was to tell or whether it was only an overview of effects. The illustration did compliment his description of what happened but, as I said, it was only a visual depiction. It showed a physical double. It couldn't show non-physical differences, such as intelligence, memory, personality etc.. We only learnt intelligence was affected because it was amongst the differences named by Emet; we couldn't see it purely from the illustration alone. Are there any other non-visual effects that he didn't name in his summary?

The Ancients appeared to have suffered enough in the 'final days' and I would hope that you're right and the the story doesn't involve anybody having died in the sundering. Unfortunately, I'm pessimistic! I can't imagine how one individual can be divided into 14, with every characteristic that identifies them affected, and still remain the same person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

People have talked about Emet Selch's total disregard for anything and anyone else, but this is not how I remember him. I remember him repeatedly expressing his wish that the WoL doesn't fail this time, that they prove strong enough. I remember him repeatedly raging that mortals aren't fit to be stewards of 'this star' because of their failures and wars and so on. Yes, he dismissed mortal races as useless but at the same time he very much seemed to want the WoL to prove they were NOT useless. I have no idea what he would have done if we had shown ourselves strong enough to contain the light because of course we weren't strong enough.

---

The people Emet sees as lesser beings, not ones even worthy to be "alive", managed to achieve what the Ascians could not: time travel to save their society. Emet's flaw is that he put too much stock into the "power" of individuals. Because the Warrior of Light lacked the raw power to meet his standards, he dismissed him/her. If he had just cooperated with the WoL, had learned from G'raha Tia, he would have his happy ending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

Dismissing him as a genocidal maniac, end of story, seems very much to be missing the whole point of him.

---

He was a genocidal maniac. He had already committed genocide and despite options being available to him to stop, he continued. While this is not the whole story, it is also something that cannot be ignored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

Dismissing [Emet-Selch] as a genocidal maniac, end of story, seems very much to be missing the whole point of him. I readily admit I've never been a willing member of Team Hydaelyn, my WoL has always fought battles for other people, for friends, and so on. She doesn't like being used by any kind of external power, even if it is a deity. So she's happy to think Hydaelyn is no better than any other player in this aeons long game. No worse, either, of course. I'm not casting Her as the villain. She feels more to me like a computer program that started running a bit wonky as soon as its creator died.

---

One of the points of Shadowbringers was, admittedly, humanizing the Ascians - showing that they do have understandable reasons for their actions, even if their means and ends are still diametrically opposed to our own. Emet-Selch may not have fit the stereotypical definition of "maniac," but I would argue that his mania was simply more subdued than usual. He recreated a near-perfect replica of his old hometown to live in, so devoted was he. Emet-Selch's demeanor may have been restrained, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a maniac... and as for the genocidal bit? Well, he was responsible for the Third and Seventh Calamities, and were it not for Crystal Exarch G'raha's intervention, would have been responsible for yet another.

The issue with "not liking Hydaelyn" is that it's ultimately irrelevant that she acts as our patron "goddess." All of the things she "tasks" us with are things we would have done anyway - again, look at Shadowbringers. We have had no real guidance or even contact with Hydaelyn since her falsified account of how her conflict with Zodiark started back in, what... 3.3? Yet everything we've done, entirely of our own volition, has played into her plans. The whole thing with Ardbert was a gambit by Hydaelyn to save the First and take out Emet-Selch, and without knowing this we did just that.

I don't even think Hydaelyn's acting in a rogue manner deviating from her "programming," so to speak. Her only known directives are to "ensure the new lives newly born inherit the planet" and "ensure those selfsame new lives aren't sacrificed to Zodiark." Exactly how she was to achieve those tasks was not specified, and given that Zodiark would have been orders of magnitude stronger than her would require drastic actions to fulfill those directives. Eons later she is still doing exactly what she was created to do.

I wouldn't go so far to say she falsified her conflict between zodiark and herself. What keeps coming to my mind for it was more of a Return of the Jedi thing when Luke jumped Obiwan about saying Vader betrayed and murdered his father and Kenobi responding that what he told him was true... from a certain point of view.

I mean all that she told is was at one point she and Zodiark where one they split he was evil and they fought. She had to split him (from what I can remember from what was said in Word of Mother at work so it may be a little off) across 10 and 3 shards and then seal the rest of him on the moon. Now shes trying to keep him from being released and she had already failed in doing that 7 times already.

I dont know if they summoned Hydaelyn from a part of Zodiark or not but we can go from a certain point of view on this with how the ancients were of one mind at one point but then diverged. *shrugs* the rest seems kind of on par. I will say i do agree that Lucy has got some more splaining to do. Because the whole certain point of view angle loses its kick after a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

It's been three months since I finished ShB, and there is still one thing no one has been able to explain satisfactorily during all these back-and-forth discussions.

Why is it okay for Hydaelyn to have ended the existence of everything on the Source by splitting it into fourteen bits but not okay for Emet Selch to end the existence of all those bits by bringing them back (rejoining) them into their original form? I am struggling to see how these two acts differ.

If separating them isn't killing them, how is rejoining them killing them, to put in another way?

---

We dont know what splitting did at that time but I doubt it killed the people. Why? Because you need people alive to even have future races. Nobody there to reproduce would kinda mean that nobody would be born. Thus they must have survived. (Also there is the cave painting which shows that people did survive otherwise who would have painted that?) It could be that it simply took away the memories or it could be that the people remembered but thanks to their power being split they could not do anything and only over time did the past die.

So as long as we dont know for sure how that part happened we cant just say it was that bad or not. But I doubt it killed. Rejoining is something different because the souls existed splitted at that part and to rejoin again one part of the soul has to give itself up. So they need to die.

Emet also did not want to just bring life back together. He stated ingame that if everything is rejoined (and suddenly they should all be living beings again even in his view) they still plan to sacrifice that life to maybe get the ancient ones back. It was never the plan to just stop there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scintilla

We know that they had planned to sacrifice ‘life’ to Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed Ancients, but we don’t know exactly what that life consisted of; Did they intend to sacrifice people? Had they intended to sacrifice animals? Or plant life? Or both?

---

Yes we dont know exactly and it could be that they included animal life in that too but there are some things ingame and in the short story that gives us further hints:

-Hythlo mentions that a part of their race wanted to give the planet to the new life and later Emet says that the spoken races cant be trusted with the planet: This imo makes me doubt that we are talking about plants or common animals. You would not talk about giving something in the hand of lifeforms that cant even act on their own and Emets words do fit with it being sapient life.
- The short story makes it clear that they only see things with souls as truly alive. Thus why they could grind their creations into crystals without any remorse. Yes animals can develop a soul but we never saw a normal plant ever have one and even most beasts seems to not have one (especially since a lot of our beasts are their creation too). So if he talks about the new life then for me it makes sense that he is talking about life with a soul.
- Zodiark needed an unknown amount of Amaurotines souls to exist and then later rebuilt the planet. We know that these ancient beings are immensly powerful. Why would Zodiark exchange a soul for a couple of plants especially if they dont even have souls? No imo they needed at least something with a bit of power which is probably why ancient ones were against it...for just one single ancient soul you would probably still need huge amount of other lifeforms with souls.
- There is also not a single hint imo in the game that hints towards it just being plants. Heck them just needing plants would have been a great solution..just take a bit of land and grow some trees on it and then later chop them down..I mean we do something similar to this to get wood.

I'm wondering how did the Ascians leap to the conclusion that Zodiark would be able to bring back the 75% of the ancients that sacrificed their lives and souls to Zodiark to stop a calamity and bring new life back to the planet. Are they seeing this as some sort of Rhea and Kronos baby God eating scenario? Wouldn't those souls/aether have been used up in the process or am I just over thinking the aetherial digestive system of a primal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Yes we dont know exactly and it could be that they included animal life in that too but there are some things ingame and in the short story that gives us further hints:

---

- Emet’s words were in response to Alphinaud’s appeal to him to look to the present, rather than continuing to dwell on the past, explaining one of the reasons he wasn’t prepared to abandon his objectives. If it was thought that Hydaelyn’s ability to split the opponent would go no further than imprisoning Zodiark, it would make the sundering unintentional and the whole ‘lesser races would be untrustworthy’ argument wouldn’t have applied. If it was known that Hydaelyn’s ability to sunder would extend beyond Zodiark to the star and it’s inhabitants, it would make the sundering intentional, forcibly applying the effects upon everyone on the star whether they wanted it or not. Amaurot was only a single city. Is it possible that there could have been other survivors elsewhere on the star who may have had no knowledge of the ongoing conflict in Amaurot and, therefore, would have had this practically irreversible change thrust upon them with no choice?
Animals can act on their own. Human life isn't essential to the survival of all. And, as some here have already said, if given the option to sacrifice an entire Family of animals to restore the Human race, they would refuse it and leave the planet to the animals. So why would their talk of leaving their star to 'future life' necessarily discount non-human or common animal life?

- Isn’t aether the matter that primals require, with aether being described as the basis of all life? I’ll admit, I don’t know very much about it. Beast-tribes manage to summon primals (albeit incredibly weak ones in comparison to Hydaelyn/Zodiark which both used sacrifices of Ancients), not only through the use of crystals but also by their own sacrifices (shown in the Garuda and Titan (Hard) cutscenes). So for such beasts post-sundering to still be of some use to primals, the beasts which existed prior to the sundering may have held greater stores of the aether required.

- In truth, we can’t really say either way. I’d agree Zodiark would’ve expected a considerable quantity of aether, but whether they would’ve obtained this from further sacrifice of Ancients (seems illogical to me but it is a possibility) or whether they would’ve obtained it from immense sacrifices of other life on the star is still somewhat unknown.

- Plants not being the only possibility, but it would also depend how much is needed and how quickly it’s required. If such sacrifices did involve plants/animals it’s likely huge swathes of land would’ve destroyed. Perhaps some felt that such mass destruction of the planet (especially after the sacrifices just made to restore it) was a backwards step and that the star’s then thriving life belonged to the future generations to enjoy – not to Zodiark.

Err Scintilla there is no perhaps for what you typed out last. That is the exact reason as why Hydaelyn was summoned. To stop anymore sacrifices to Zodiark and let the new life flourish. It is what also caused the division among the remaining Amaurotians.

Also they weren't planning on sacrificing anymore of the ancients they were straight up planning to sacrifice the new life after letting it flourish long enough so that there was exactly the amount of aether/power that Zodiark needed to give life back to the ones who willingly gave up their life to stop the calamity and bring life back to the devastated star.

Hythlodaeus goes into this explanation himself when your sitting on a bench waiting to get your papers in Amaurot.

Edit: Btw I was just thinking about this while trying to get some sleep. I highly doubt that it matters to the Ascians what they do or who or what gets killed/destroyed in the process of achieving their goals. Take them using Black Rose just to usher in the Eighth umbral calamity. That poison not only killed man and beasts it also destroyed Vegetation as well.

Rannie, I think the "perhaps" there applied to the idea that the tipping point for the decision to summon Hydaelyn was "You cannot sacrifice the trees!" if the environmental impact of sacrificing said trees (and other non-persons) was big enough. As opposed to the theory that the phase 3 sacrifice was going to include people.

It is most definitely not clear that Hydaelyn was summoned to safeguard the newly restored populations of plants and animals. I hope it wasn't just that. Splitting reality over a bunch of non-sentient plants that will just grow back anyway is silly. Either the 3rd phase sacrifice included sacrificing people, or my past self was a misanthropic idiot. IMO.

Ahh then I miss understood then. I honestly dont think it was just about the plants and animals. Though they all contain Aether. If they didn't then Y'shtola is the luckiest blind kitty out there for not running into one of those giant trees in Rak tika.

Lol misanthropic idiot... sorry I laughed with that. And you're right if that is the case lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

It is most definitely not clear that Hydaelyn was summoned to safeguard the newly restored populations of plants and animals. I hope it wasn't just that. Splitting reality over a bunch of non-sentient plants that will just grow back anyway is silly. Either the 3rd phase sacrifice included sacrificing people, or my past self was a misanthropic idiot. IMO.

---

I'd agree it would've been a big overreaction if that were the case. Hythlodaeus was so vague it could've meant almost anything! Whilst I'm not sure I like the sundering of everything as a solution (if it was intentional), hopefully hearing Hydaelyn's explanation of events will better explain why it was essential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm wondering how did the Ascians leap to the conclusion that Zodiark would be able to bring back the 75% of the ancients that sacrificed their lives and souls to Zodiark to stop a calamity and bring new life back to the planet. Are they seeing this as some sort of Rhea and Kronos baby God eating scenario? Wouldn't those souls/aether have been used up in the process or am I just over thinking the aetherial digestive system of a primal?

---

Since Emet-Selch could see dead souls perhaps he (and possibly some others) saw the souls of the sacrificed inside Zodiark and maybe they were suffering there and that's why they decided to free them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scintilla

I'd agree it would've been a big overreaction if that were the case. Hythlodaeus was so vague it could've meant almost anything! Whilst I'm not sure I like the sundering of everything as a solution (if it was intentional), hopefully hearing Hydaelyn's explanation of events will better explain why it was essential.

---

The sundering of everything, of reality, was just an unfortunate side-effect of splitting Zodiark. Due to him being "the will of the star made manifest," sundering Zodiark consequently sundered the planet and everything on it down to an aetherial level, creating the separate shards and Source. (The only ones to escape this were Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea, somehow.)

What Hythlodaeus says, near-verbatim (I'm not going to look it up exactly), is that the plan post-planetary restoration was to "nurture the planet until it was bursting with vitality," then "sacrifice some of that planetary life energy to Zodiark to restore those brethren who were sacrificed to bring him into being." While this may not be entirely precise, I do remember "planetary life energy" being used verbatim, though exactly what that meant or included is nebulous. Presumably this would have included some number of plants and animals, up to and including sapient beings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm wondering how did the Ascians leap to the conclusion that Zodiark would be able to bring back the 75% of the ancients that sacrificed their lives and souls to Zodiark to stop a calamity and bring new life back to the planet. Are they seeing this as some sort of Rhea and Kronos baby God eating scenario? Wouldn't those souls/aether have been used up in the process or am I just over thinking the aetherial digestive system of a primal?

---

Well they have just created something that was able to rewrite the laws of existance and saved a death planet. Maybe they thought that he simply could do everything. Being struck by grief might have helped to form that view.

Or since they are tempered it was something Zodiark told them and they just believed him. If he in any form as some form of will it could be that he liked getting energy and thus "promised" them to give them back if they get him something else for it. Maybe he would have brought them back in the form of soulless bodies or maybe he never planned to. I am looking forward to future information on how much Zodiark and Hydealyn have their own agenda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scintilla

- Emet’s words were in response to Alphinaud’s appeal to him to look to the present, rather than continuing to dwell on the past, explaining one of the reasons he wasn’t prepared to abandon his objectives.

---

Yes Emets words alone could be just taken as him saying that about the people now but together with Hytlos words about giving the planets into the hands of the new life and not the anicents anymore and then have Emet later confirm that its about the new races being the new stewards makes it feel to me that this was meant to show that the new life might have been the spoken races.

Also about the sundering: Well if they had not done anything then all these survivors would have probably been killed too. We are talking about tempered people that came from a city that saw itself as the best of the world and that waited with a solution until it was at their own doorsteps. They also only talked about getting those Amaurotines souls back even though that could simply be because the rest can be reborn. (Which then begs the question if they too were part of the new life..) We also know that 75% of the survivors were needed to create Zodiark and rebuilt the planet. Thus only 25% were even left. Even if most of them would be on Hydealyns side she would still had a huge amount of souls less then Zodiark. I for one do believe that the sundering was planned and that they saw it as necessary, especially since Zodiark was part of the planet now (as the will of the planet) and his complete destruction might have destroyed things. (It could also be that they saw it as necessary to split the power of creation because they might have had more information than we do and saw that history would just repeat itself or that everyone would fall under the tempering)

Yes animals act on their own but if you see yourself as the protector of the planet then I doubt you would say that you will give that role to the new life if its just animals. Animals dont protect. They simply live. Of course animals could have also been part of the process (if they imo had souls) but I really doubt that it was only about them. Also why should some of the ancients even think that? IMO it only makes sense if they believe that their rule is over and the new sapient life that grows right now should have the right. Otherwise if its just about simple animals why talk about it at all?

Well Zodiark needed 50% of the surviving Amaurotines to even exist. I dobut that they would have used human sacrifice if they had other huge aether storages. We know from the game that even the WoL with 8 of 14 soul parts did not even come near their power, heck they were even surprised that a child had such low aether. I somehow doubt that any animal had nearly as much aether as they did. Also beast tribes may be called like that but as far as we know they are just like the spoken races and have a soul. They are not like the animals we see around. Right now we have not a single example were an animal was directly used to summon a primal.

Not only would it be a backwards step but also means that Zodiark needed to work again to restore life. Because you cant just take out a huge part of the planets life without consequences. And now you have a circle of sacrifice. But again I doubt that we talk about plants.

Edit: sry for the double post..forgot that I already posted on before that...but at least the post is not that huge thanks to that.

The japanese part of Hytlos speech included these sentences:

Time would pass, and eventually life would flourish again. They reconsidered the best way for humanity to continue their guardianship of this star once that time came.
The Council of Fourteen presented this conclusion.
That when the time was ripe, and the world bountiful with life, they would sacrifice a portion of it to Zodiark...
Such that he might revive those whose aether he had consumed for power, and everyone would once again oversee the world together.
But there were those who did not agree.
They believed that it was time for the sacrifices to come to an end, and for them to hand the new world over to the new lives living upon it.

And reading that tells me that the english portion of it just decided to use different wording that mean the exact same thing. Like instead of guardianship the English word used is protect. Bursting with Vitality instead of bountiful with life ...

Also Alleo I think I may now be leaning towards the Ascians are just tempered idiots.

Edit: it also makes me wonder about exactly how much life they are talking about in terms of Sacrifice could just equal one soul of an ancient race who could live for ages and were extremely powerful to begin with. I kinda doubt the life needed ratio would be 1:1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Well Zodiark needed 50% of the surviving Amaurotines to even exist. I dobut that they would have used human sacrifice if they had other huge aether storages. We know from the game that even the WoL with 8 of 14 soul parts did not even come near their power, heck they were even surprised that a child had such low aether. I somehow doubt that any animal had nearly as much aether as they did. Also beast tribes may be called like that but as far as we know they are just like the spoken races and have a soul. They are not like the animals we see around. Right now we have not a single example were an animal was direct

---

The problem was that the powers of the Ancients that were running amok and destroying the world due to the sound. The raw power of the Ancients was working against them until the very Star was failing (in Emet's own words). Even if there were vast aether reserves held within the other life on the planet, they might have already been destroyed before the Amaurotine choose to act. For all we know, the life pre-Calamity could have been teeming with aether. But from what we see in the duty Amaurot, the Source was already a burning wasteland and Amaurot collapsing before Zodiark was summoned. There wouldn't have been many sources of aether by that point, hence why they probably resorted to human sacrifice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

And reading that tells me that the english portion of it just decided to use different wording that mean the exact same thing. Like instead of guardianship the English word used is protect. Bursting with Vitality instead of bountiful with life ...

Also Alleo I think I may now be leaning towards the Ascians are just tempered idiots.

Edit: it also makes me wonder about exactly how much life they are talking about in terms of Sacrifice could just equal one soul of an ancient race who could live for ages and were extremely powerful to begin with. I kinda doubt the life needed ratio would be 1:1.

---

I think the real answer is "There will never be enough life to do what you want b/c this is all just a mindscrew by Zodiark to continue a cycle of aether sacrifice. Because primal. Which you have a blindspot to b/c you are tempered, of course." There is no concrete answer b/c there is no ratio. People are more than just their materials, aetheric or otherwise. (*insert Fullmetal Alchemist reference here*)

Hades and the others are indoctrinated/brainwashed to think it will work b/c that's what they need to believe to go through with the plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

And reading that tells me that the english portion of it just decided to use different wording that mean the exact same thing. Like instead of guardianship the English word used is protect. Bursting with Vitality instead of bountiful with life ...

Also Alleo I think I may now be leaning towards the Ascians are just tempered idiots.

Edit: it also makes me wonder about exactly how much life they are talking about in terms of Sacrifice could just equal one soul of an ancient race who could live for ages and were extremely powerful to begin with. I kinda doubt the life needed ratio would be 1:1.

---

Yeah they kinda mean the same thing but I posted them because imo you cant give guardianship over to plants. Also if Zodiark restored the planet with another 50% of the rest then I somehow doubt that he forgot the plants because they are needed to have animals even survive. Yet in the talk he says that they wanted to wait until the planet is ripe with life again. But I guess in the end its bad no matter what they wanted to sacrifice, because as you said, how much would they even need to get one soul back...and I question on how the souls would even be there..I mean they sacrificed themselves so that he even has the power..so shouldnt they be used up by now?

And yes I fear that the tempering messed them up big time. Which is why I wonder if Zodiark is truly just a "machine" doing what its meant to do or if it has free will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

The problem was that the powers of the Ancients that were running amok and destroying the world due to the sound. The raw power of the Ancients was working against them until the very Star was failing (in Emet's own words). Even if there were vast aether reserves held within the other life on the planet, they might have already been destroyed before the Amaurotine choose to act. For all we know, the life pre-Calamity could have been teeming with aether. But from what we see in the duty Amaurot, the Source was already a burning wasteland and Amaurot collapsing before Zodiark was summoned. There wouldn't have been many sources of aether by that point, hence why they probably resorted to human sacrifice.

---

This could also be true but then its kinda their own fault if that is the case...since they waited until its at their own doorsteps..this is of course pure speculation but I wonder if maybe the 14th warned them all the time about that but was ignored or if they had another solution instead of Zodiark and this is why they left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Well they have just created something that was able to rewrite the laws of existance and saved a death planet. Maybe they thought that he simply could do everything. Being struck by grief might have helped to form that view.

Or since they are tempered it was something Zodiark told them and they just believed him. If he in any form as some form of will it could be that he liked getting energy and thus "promised" them to give them back if they get him something else for it. Maybe he would have brought them back in the form of soulless bodies or maybe he never planned to. I am looking forward to future information on how much Zodiark and Hydealyn have their own agenda.

---

Seeing as how they created him, chances are they have a pretty good idea of what Zodiark is capable. It was Creation on a grand scale, but it was still Creation - and Creation is something the Ancients had down to a science. I believe that even the Tempering is something they built in on purpose, to give Zodiark the ability to restrain the out-of-control Creation that was going on.

I don't think it was anything like, "Let's create a god, and then ask it what it can do!" any more than software engineers program a computer and ask it what it can do. They know exactly what the computer can do - they programmed it!

As for whether Hy and Zo have free will... Well, maybe. Ever since their origins were revealed, I've had my doubts. If they do have free will, it's probably something along the lines of, "you can do whatever you want, so long as you also fulfill the task for which you were created."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

I think the real answer is "There will never be enough life to do what you want b/c this is all just a mindscrew by Zodiark to continue a cycle of aether sacrifice. Because primal. Which you have a blindspot to b/c you are tempered, of course." There is no concrete answer b/c there is no ratio. People are more than just their materials, aetheric or otherwise. (*insert Fullmetal Alchemist reference here*)

Hades and the others are indoctrinated/brainwashed to think it will work b/c that's what they need to believe to go through with the plan.

---

While I'm not of the mind that the plan post-restoration was simply Zodiark duping the tempered Conclave, I do agree that even if their plans came to fruition it wouldn't be exactly what they want. A soul is more than the aether it's made up of, if the myth behind the origins of the various fae have any truth to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Seeing as how they created him, chances are they have a pretty good idea of what Zodiark is capable. It was Creation on a grand scale, but it was still Creation - and Creation is something the Ancients had down to a science. I believe that even the Tempering is something they built in on purpose, to give Zodiark the ability to restrain the out-of-control Creation that was going on.

I don't think it was anything like, "Let's create a god, and then ask it what it can do!" any more than software engineers program a computer and ask it what it can do. They know exactly what the computer can do - they programmed it!

---

Computer programming... isn't that simple. You could program Zodiark to stop the Sound, but given they didn't know what was causing it, that would leave him with a lot of leeway in his functions. Think of it this way: Ramuh was created to be the Sylphs' sage protector, and he does no more and no less than that - but this leaves him at odds with the Spoken races at times. The guardian becomes a destroyer.

While the Ancients were well-versed in creation magicks, it's unlikely something on the scale of Zodiark was ever attempted before. The Amaurot recreated by Emet-Selch was made from his memories of the city not long before the Sound reached it, during which Zodiark was summoned in desperation. The Akademia Anyder, where creation magicks were studied and developed, has Guardian Force Quetzalcoatl as the final boss - and it's implicitly the prototype for the primals we're familiar with.

Long story short... Zodiark was the product of creation magicks, but something on his scale was never attempted before, and if you want to compare it to computer programming the likelihood of tempering being a "bug" they didn't work out (because they had no time, and in their reteachings to Beast tribes is advantageous to their goals) is pretty high by my estimates.

And like, we have lots of stories about artificial intelligences going rogue or breaking the boundaries and limitations put upon them. It's far from implausible that Zodiark became much more than he was ever intended to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Computer programming... isn't that simple. You could program Zodiark to stop the Sound, but given they didn't know what was causing it, that would leave him with a lot of leeway in his functions. Think of it this way: Ramuh was created to be the Sylphs' sage protector, and he does no more and no less than that - but this leaves him at odds with the Spoken races at times. The guardian becomes a destroyer.

While the Ancients were well-versed in creation magicks, it's unlikely something on the scale of Zodiark was ever attempted before. The Amaurot recreated by Emet-Selch was made from his memories of the city not long before the Sound reached it, during which Zodiark was summoned in desperation. The Akademia Anyder, where creation magicks were studied and developed, has Guardian Force Quetzalcoatl as the final boss - and it's implicitly the prototype for the primals we're familiar with.

Long story short... Zodiark was the product of creation magicks, but something on his scale was never attempted before, and if you want to compare it to computer programming the likelihood of tempering being a "bug" they didn't work out (because they had no time, and in their reteachings to Beast tribes is advantageous to their goals) is pretty high by my estimates.

---

To be honest, I'm not sure if I want it all to turn out to be a Zeroth Law Rebellion on the part of Zodiark (and possibly Hydaelyn). There's something about the abdication of responsibility that sits wrong with me if it turns out that Zodiark is just going "well, you told me to do this, but didn't explain how or the details, so I just tried my best based on logical first principles, what is human empathy and emotions, beep boop".

So it would turn out that seven worlds are destroyed, one is irrecoverably overrun with monsters, and one more is on the brink of destruction, because the original programmers didn't define parameters and still pushed the build live (due to desperation), and then it misunderstood what it was supposed to do. That leans a bit too far away from tragedy and into farce for my tastes.

(For people who aren't familiar with Asimov, a Zeroth Law Rebellion concerns Asimov's proposed "Three Laws of Robotics": to prevent humans from coming to harm, to always obey humans, and to protect itself, in that strict order of priority. As robots in Asimov's story became more and more ingrained in human society and interconnected, Asimov implied that the robots independently came up with Law Zero, overriding all else: to prevent humanity from coming to harm. The conflict in those stories is that preventing humanity from coming to harm may still necessitate harming individual humans, or even a great number of individual humans.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Seeing as how they created him, chances are they have a pretty good idea of what Zodiark is capable. It was Creation on a grand scale, but it was still Creation - and Creation is something the Ancients had down to a science. I believe that even the Tempering is something they built in on purpose, to give Zodiark the ability to restrain the out-of-control Creation that was going on.

I don't think it was anything like, "Let's create a god, and then ask it what it can do!" any more than software engineers program a computer and ask it what it can do. They know exactly what the computer can do - they programmed it!

As for whether Hy and Zo have free will... Well, maybe. Ever since their origins were revealed, I've had my doubts. If they do have free will, it's probably something along the lines of, "you can do whatever you want, so long as you also fulfill the task for which you were created."

---

Maybe its easy if you just use your pure own aether to create something but the quests showed us that even this its not that simple. Just one second of thinking something else created child robes instead of those for adults. Just one second of having your attention somewhere else made a different creature. So imagine the chaos and death that was going on that day. Ancients running around in panic, creating their own nightmares, the heaven raining down death and destruction...even the most concentrated person in the world might have made a mistake..maybe they believed that having him just controlling their power would be all and suddenly he also has controll over their mind.

Heck even Emet Selch made a mistake in his illusion. He gave one shade a sense of self and this can already happen just with a little side thought.

Also the short story showed us that the soul can control the actions of the magical construct with the way the phoenix was acting..I cant imagine that each single soul that sacrificed themself for Zodiark was calm and collected. Maybe even those souls influenced his actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Computer programming... isn't that simple.

---

Sheesh, folks always stompin' all over my analogies...

I AM a computer programmer by trade, so I have a pretty decent idea on how simple it is. My point was that programmers have capabilities in mind when they program a machine. Unless you're a programmer from Warrhammer 40k, you don't cobble something together and then wonder what it can do. You know what it's supposed to do (even if you have to clean up a lot of bugs to make it do so).

The analogy to bugs is a good one, but even with those in mind, the major tasks the Ancients desired of Zodiark (stop the destruction of the world, revitalize the world, restore those sacrificed) were likely capabilities the Ancients intended to include. They built Zodiark to those specifications. Bugs would show up in more minor ways; for example, I'm willing to acknowledge that Tempering could have been a glitch caused by a panicky Convocationeer hoping Zo would have some way to control the folks who kept crapping out horrific demons by accident, even if I consider it to be at least as likely to have been a calculated and intentional feature. But for the big stuff, yeah, the Ancients knew what Zodiark could do. There was no guesswork involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

----

---

Though now there is a very BIG issue that if there was a very big bug with Zodiark's design that these Temper Ascians will completely ignore it because the Temper makes them think everything is fine with Zodiark's design.

We have not seen what they BIG bug maybe since we never met Zodiark yet but I suspect it is there and it is going to be a very big issue near the finale of Season 1 storyline which is suspected to be 6.0. Though if 6.1 to 6.3 is not the Epilogue Storyline but continue where 6.0 left off for the True Ending then they may focus on it through 6.1 to 6.3 and then make 6.4 to 6.55 the Season 1 Epilogue and Prologue for Season 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The analogy to bugs is a good one, but even with those in mind, the major tasks the Ancients desired of Zodiark (stop the destruction of the world, revitalize the world, restore those sacrificed) were likely capabilities the Ancients intended to include. They built Zodiark to those specifications. Bugs would show up in more minor ways; for example, I'm willing to acknowledge that Tempering could have been a glitch caused by a panicky Convocationeer hoping Zo would have some way to control the folks who kept crapping out horrific demons by accident, even if I consider it to be at least as likely to have been a calculated and intentional feature. But for the big stuff, yeah, the Ancients knew what Zodiark could do. There was no guesswork involved.

---

But ancients are not perfect and can make mistakes (quite easily if they are not fully concentrated). Seeing how they seemingly waited quite a bit until Zodiark was summoned (as in: until it was at their city) its really not that surprising if panic and other emotions were running high and thus mistakes were made.

The short story also points out how they had no idea how souls are made.

Also I am still not sure how these souls would even still exist or be able to be taken out. The whole point of that sacrifice imo was to give them immense power by giving them their souls as battery. Shouldnt he have used them up? Also if they already had planned about getting those souls back (which in turn would make Emets "would your people sacrifice themselves for others"-speech, ring very hollow since then it would have never been a true sacrifice anyway)why are they still talking about this as a solution afterwards? Shouldnt that have been solved beforehand? Because seemingly Hythlo makes it sound like that idea was only talked about afterwards but if it was their plan the whole time that does not make much sense.

Not just that but even Emet himself made it sound like it was a rush job during the run through of Amaurot's final days. Like they were on the brink of destruction held a council meeting rushed it out to the people and went , "Yo! We gotta plan to stop this, upside is we can rework the will of the planet but we need to create it. We need volunteers ASAP!!! So we can do this! Btw the fine print is you wont live due to the aether we need. DO WE HAVE VOLUNTEERS!!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

Not just that but even Emet himself made it sound like it was a rush job during the run though of Amaurot's final days. Like they were on the brink of destruction held a council meeting rushed it out to the people and went , "Yo! We gotta plan to stop this, upside is we can rework the will of the planet but we need to create it. We need volunteers ASAP!!! So we can do this! Btw the fine print is you wont live due to the aether we need. DO WE HAVE VOLUNTEERS!!"

---

My current headcanon is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were actually part of a single creation concept, but since the rate of the Final Days afflicting the planet sped up, they could only get the zodiark part completed in time, and that the 14th left because they didnt want to use an 'unfinished' concept.

Yeah that's just one version my mind kinda plays out... it's not as bad though as what keeps playing out in my head concerning our character dying and Hydaelyn finding out... it involves Alexander and is just straight up silly

Looks like Nier Riad is related to the Dwarf in some way after all. The intro quest teased in the trailer looks like we will be following the Dwarf on the First to investigate the Machine Graveyard that was mentioned so the 1st Nier raid and maybe the remaining 2 maybe on the First.

There is a chance, maybe even a small one, that the Nier raid is related to a Ancient Civilization from the First or could be remnents of a Civilization from the Original World before the Sundering.


On that note...

Looks like 2B will be fighting against 9S. They also seem to have put effort into giving this 2B some new animation attacks not from Nier Automata while mixing in some of her normal animations from Nier Automata such as her double illusion clone slash.

PS the Nier raid theme music is Glorious.

On the Source side of events...

It seems we will get more scenes focusing on events in Garlean Empire and it seems a full Garlean Force been mobilized in the Capital City either to hunt down Zenos for his crime of murdering the Emperor or Gaius and Estinien due to people suspecting them for the murder.


PSS Alex Ultimate!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Because seemingly Hythlo makes it sound like that idea was only talked about afterwards but if it was their plan the whole time that does not make much sense.

---

The sacrifice is only hollow if the ones sacrificing themselves knew ahead of time that they would be saved. If they offered up their lives with no expectation of salvation, then it was still a noble thing. Did they know? It is not certain at this point.

The Ascians' desire to rescue them from their sacrifice would also be noble, if not for the price that must be paid for it...

I hope we get a proper RP battle for Estinien/Gaius vs. Zenos.

I'm also praying the Garleans know that it's him who did the deed and that he doesn't just end up playing them all for fools, though, since I feel like it would be harder to predict how things play out from there then if he were to usurp the throne.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I hope we get a proper RP battle for Estinien/Gaius vs. Zenos.

I'm also praying the Garleans know that it's him who did the deed and that he doesn't just end up playing them all for fools, though, since I feel like it would be harder to predict how things play out from there then if he were to usurp the throne.

---

Based on the camera angle and the fluidity it def looked like we were RPing as Estinien since it looked very similar to when we used Y'shtola against Magnai.

I just noticed that he's not actually fighting Zenos in that scene and rather it's some kind of magitek creation that bears a resemblance to Ultima Weapon.

I suppose that even if the Garleans know Zenos did it they're not just gonna let Estinien and Gaius waltz out of there regardless.

Zenos will most likely admit to the death of his father. Who can match him in power in Garlemald? Nobody. No one would dare challenge his authority, so they'll all follow out of fear of him. It won't be until some unseen event occurs that they will turn on him. I have a feeling the Populares however, will turn to Eorzea for help defeating him.