The Real Problem with Parsers

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I don't get it. What part of that demanded the use of a parser?

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It's called "underperfoming"

I doubt you need a parser to tell just how bad that is, tho...

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

As for your guide, you mentioned you used "math". I think it's safe to assume you've used a program to help you do that. So how exactly would this be different from parsers? Parsers simply simplify it for this sole reason. It does add one benefit. Namely numbers. Numbers are much easier to grasp for the guide's effectiveness, rather than a "theoretical guide". Without the end result (the numbers), how could you prove your guide's better, if not just as effective, as another guide?

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I forgot to address this point. The "program" I used is nothing other than pen-and-paper, automated by just running the calculations in excel rather than doing them by hand. I directly take the potency amounts in-game, use the GCD cooldown I have, and, using these numbers, calculated what would be the optimal rotation between a few different variants I came up with. Dragoon is simple in that it has 2 combos and 2 skills out-of-combo that are halfway useful. (Full Thrust/Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust/Phlebotomize, respectfully)

I reasoned out that Fracture is a waste of time and TP, because its potency per gcd is less than every other potential skill you could put in that spot (listed above) - INCLUDING Heavy Thrust, when you add up all those 15%'s that it gives on any of the other GCDs.

None of this required parsing - none even required verification by parsing. Numbers don't lie. Using simply the potency amounts, I also was able to calculate when it would be optimal to use buffs such as Life Surge, simply by mathing it out hard enough. I didn't have to parse using it in each place in a long fight to see. I just extrapolated using "perfect" rotations with "ideal" timings and decided which skills it would be useful to use it on. It was a loss to use it for Chaos Thrust (where it used to be a gain) but a gain to use it on either 4th hit OR Full Thrust, so long as you hit the positionals.

All of this has merit regardless of parsing or not, because I considered all other cases. At least 90% of other cases are thrown out before you even start because 90% of the skills on Dragoon are less potency per gcd than using either of those 4 blocks described above. From there it's just a matter of figuring out how to maximize the use of those 4 blocks. There's only so many permutations that exist when you only have 4 pieces to slide around, especially when 2 out of 4 of those are static damage regardless where you put them.


All of this described above comes with numbers.
Heavy Thrust is 170 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Phlebotomize is 170+30x? potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Chaos Thrust combo is (180+220+250+290+35x?)/4 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.
Full Thrust combo is (150+200+360+290)/4 potency per gcd, not counting buffs.

The ?'s depend on your skill speed and the rotation you end up putting together.

In practice, we can calculate the Full Thrust combo's potency, including our base buffs as Dragoon (Heavy Thrust's +15% damage and Disembowel's 10% Pierce debuff resist drop):

150+200+360+290 = 1000 potency
1000 / 4 = 250 potency per gcd
250 x 1.15 = 287.5 potency per gcd (with Heavy Thrust)
287.5 / 0.9 = 319.44 potency per gcd (with HT+Dis)

That's a number I can compare to the others and see which combo is stronger. I didn't use a parser to get that number at all. All I "automated" was the last two calculations.

When you set up a rotation, it will give you a specific potency per gcd. You can compare these numbers to the numbers produced by other rotations to find out which one is strictly best without doing the fieldwork of testing each one a hundred times and averaging the results to give dps numbers spat out from a parser that estimates dot ticks.

How is it different from a parser? It's calculated using nothing but the numbers the game gives me in tool tips without "automating" anything aside from flat calculations (Though a calculator hardly automates anything). A parser scrapes the data from the game and compiles it, automating everything from data gathering to the calculations of damage amounts. These are two very different methods, though they look similar if you paint in broad strokes.

People should stop expecting to be bad with no one saying anything b/c "games" "i play how i wanna" "it can't be me" "elitist."

I don't know where this mentality of " everyone deal with my bad performance or you're a bad person" came from. In the end that is just using a different viewpoint to make oneself psychologically feel better.

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Originally Posted by rappa

It's called "underperfoming"

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It's called "You already saw that he had Mind accessories". You don't need a parser to prove that Mind isn't what a Bard should be using, because it says when you hover over it in your character screen that it affects healing potency. It's just plain fact that Bards should be using Dex, not Mind.

A parser wouldn't have changed anything. It's as easy to prove he's underperforming with and without a parser because he's literally not wearing the right stats.

And this is besides the fact that you're complaining about underperforming in Aurum Vale? Really? That's why this game DOESN'T need parsers. If you're complaining about how poorly someone's parsing in something like Aurum Vale, you're the exact type of person that should not be allowed to parse.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And this is besides the fact that you're complaining about underperforming in Aurum Vale? Really? That's why this game DOESN'T need parsers. If you're complaining about how poorly someone's parsing in something like Aurum Vale, you're the exact type of person that should not be allowed to parse.

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He wasn't complaining about how poorly they were parsing nor did he even mention low damage output, but the fact that they were completely off the radar on what they should be doing (having the wrong stats). All that screenshot showed was that he couldn't even voice that because in the end, he wounded up getting vote dismissed.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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Calculating your optimal potencies shows you your hypothetical ceiling. If you wanna know how well you're actually applying that knowledge then you need to analyze your combat logs.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

He wasn't complaining about how poorly they were parsing nor did he even mention low damage output

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He says that the game needs parsers because someone was wearing Mind accessories on a Bard. When asked what a parser has to do with that, he said "underperforming". The example was taking place in Aurum Vale.

So yes, the complaint is underperforming in Aurum Vale.

Whether he said it in chat is irrelevant, and parsers would have been entirely irrelevant and not solved anything in that situation because if they didn't figure out in 50ish levels that Dex is for Bards and Mind is not useful for Bards, showing them DPS numbers isn't going to do a thing.

Especially if the other DPS isn't a similarly-geared-except-wearing-Dex Bard so that there's something to compare to.

But, I mean, looking at the chat, "Motion for dismissal rejected" coming right before "Facepalm" kind of suggests that the person tried to kick the Bard for wearing Mind accessories, it failed, and they got kicked in return. Maybe that's wrong, but that chat log makes it pretty clear they weren't just innocently, kindly bringing up that Bards should use Dex.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

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You don't need a parser to tell someone is under performing, but you need it to quantify that information and prove that they are infact, under performing. Regardless of if there was a parser there or not, I don't think the outcome would've changed with that party. It's an isolated scenario, but just maybe you know, if the BRD had seen his numbers compared to say...other bards (which was actually the case for that party in the screenshot), then if he had the mind to improve then maybe he'd rethink the use of such accessories, especially when he isn't even using the extra mana. It's a terrible example that really doesn't prove one way or another, because even for something like AV, I'd rather not have to put up with people who either refuse to learn the proper stats for their class or deliberately play poorly.

Also funny enough, he asked what the mind was supposed to, which quite literally, does nothing for bards, not even give mana as they claimed.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You don't need a parser to tell someone is under performing, but you need it to quantify that information and prove that they are infact, under performing. Regardless of if there was a parser there or not, I don't think the outcome would've changed with that party. It's an isolated scenario, but just maybe you know, if the BRD had seen his numbers compared to say...other bards (which was actually the case for that party in the screenshot), then if he had the mind to improve then maybe he'd rethink the use of such accessories, especially when he isn't even using the extra mana. It's a terrible example that really doesn't prove one way or another, because even for something like AV, I'd rather not have to put up with people who either refuse to learn the proper stats for their class or deliberately play poorly.

Also funny enough, he asked what the mind was supposed to, which quite literally, does nothing for bards, not even give mana as they claimed.

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Well he definitely had the MIND to improve.

I'll see myself out...

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

but you need it to quantify that information and prove that they are infact, under performing.

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Which you don't need in this case where someone is factually wearing the wrong stat. If "not wearing the right stat" (and apparently missing a ring) isn't enough to prove that someone's going to be underperforming, no amount of parser numbers will prove it to them because they simply won't care.

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It's an isolated scenario

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And this is an isolated argument. They said that they needed parsers to prove someone who's not wearing the right gear is going to be underperforming. That's just plain wrong. In no stretch of the imagination do you need numbers to prove that having the wrong gear on will cause someone to underperform. That's like saying that you need numbers to prove that someone wearing i90 gear is not going to hit as hard as someone wearing i190. It's just a terrible argument.

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but just maybe you know, if the BRD had seen his numbers

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And just maybe, you know, if the person had tried to explain why Dex is important instead of a rude "Facepalm" comment and a failed vote kick, the Bard would have been more open to listening.

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Also funny enough, he asked what the mind was supposed to, which quite literally, does nothing for bards, not even give mana as they claimed.

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And according to the legend of what colours are which, the Bard didn't say that Mind gives MP. It says Blue = PLD.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Which you don't need in this case where someone is factually wearing the wrong stat. If "not wearing the right stat" (and apparently missing a ring) isn't enough to prove that someone's going to be underperforming, no amount of parser numbers will prove it to them because they simply won't care.

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Which again, would not apply to situations where the person is willfully ignorant/bad. But even then you have the off chance that players do not know their primary stats (specifically monks and rogues due to the lack of clarification on early DoW body Pieces). And even outside of that, just rotational/gameplay in general. Thats why I even mentioned that this screenshot is a terrible example to prove either side on whether or not having a parser is good.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And this is an isolated argument. They said that they needed parsers to prove someone who's not wearing the right gear is going to be underperforming. That's just plain wrong. In no stretch of the imagination do you need numbers to prove that having the wrong gear on will cause someone to underperform. That's like saying that you need numbers to prove that someone wearing i90 gear is not going to hit as hard as someone wearing i190. It's just a terrible argument.

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They're not debating Ilvls though, they're debating stats at the same ilvl (since AV syncs to 49). And it is an isolated scenario/argument, that's why it shouldn't apply to (not) having parsers in general.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And according to the legend of what colours are which, the Bard didn't say that Mind gives MP. It says Blue = PLD.

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Which more likely than not, the three had queued together, so the odd one out would be SoL. The matter of fact is, their reasoning is still objectively wrong.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Calculating your optimal potencies shows you your hypothetical ceiling. If you wanna know how well you're actually applying that knowledge then you need to analyze your combat logs.

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Sure. That's correct, to some extent.

However, once you have the base rotation and understand the base mechanics of the class, you've reached the skill floor. In general, someone at the skill floor isn't going to be noticed as being "bad," even with parsers. The skill gap is immense for most classes, and I can only speak for Dragoon on this, but...

If you just do the base rotation of Dragoon with absolutely no buffs (even ignoring GSK), I can still cruise at ~960 dps on a dummy. This compares to my 1350+ resting dps on dummy using buffs and ogcd attacks. If that 1350 translates to 1100-1200 in any given turn of Alexander normal mode, the minimum skill variant I outlined here would likely translate to ~815 dps. Granted, I'm i203, so my stats are quite higher/better than, say, an i180 player, but these numbers should still hold (somewhat) for someone who's been buying Eso gear weekly and has the rest 190. They'll be ~100 or so less, but meh. Same story as below.

No one will call him on his shit. It's low, yeah, but nobody is gonna say "BRO U SUCK" they'll just shrug it off and move on. And that's simply doing mechanics correctly and performing your base rotation while using literally 0 cooldowns for the entire duration. Nothing. No jumps, no Geirskoguls, no Life Surge, not even a Blood for Blood.


Basically, the mathematics I'm talking about isn't related to calculating a hypothetical skill ceiling, it's about calculating the very real skill FLOOR for a class. The base rotation you should be doing to perform the class correctly. So, uh, essentially - you don't need a parser to tell you that you're playing your class according to how the current meta tells you the optimal way to play it is. You'd need one to see yourself IMPROVE beyond the baseline, sure, but to know you're there? Not necessary, imo.

Obviously i didn't need a parser to discover this bard was underperforming. Wrong accesories and missing one actived the alarm.
With a parser, you could show his number against other party members. During that AV run, i was a bard too, i doubled the damage from that bard.

I killed a tons of time the first boss from AV and was the first time, the healer was out of mana. I had to eat 5 fruits with 3 stacks each one. After the kill with LB1, i checked the parser and that bard did 10 dps more than tank, and me 100 dps more. It's a lower difference, but doing a dungeon lvl 49, it's a big difference.

Be prepared, he is lvl 50+ and he is ready for Dusk vigil or other HW dungeons. Will be a pain if he doesn't learn anything from his job.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

In practice, we can calculate the Full Thrust combo's potency, including our base buffs as Dragoon (Heavy Thrust's +15% damage and Disembowel's 10% Pierce debuff resist drop):

150+200+360+290 = 1000 potency
1000 / 4 = 250 potency per gcd
250 x 1.15 = 287.5 potency per gcd (with Heavy Thrust)
287.5 / 0.9 = 319.44 potency per gcd (with HT+Dis)

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And then you get in game and realize that your calculations are off, because 1) potency scales weird and Full Thrust isn't 12x as much damage as Phlebotomize ticks, even without buffs, and 2) that Disembowel should probably be X*1.1, not X/.9. At least, that's what the community's been using.

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

I am writing this as a plea to SE, and the community.


Do not add parsers of any nature, do not homogenize the game more then it already is. I, like the majority of FF fans play it for the uniqueness of it, the mystery and wonder and of course the lore.

If you add parsers to the game(Or continue to allow things like ACT to function) then you will create a WoW clone which caters to the 1% and leaves the 99% struggling to enjoy the game or see/experience content.


You may increase subs, but you will destroy the community. I don't want to play a "set rotation" or be kicked from groups because my DPS was 50 below the other DPS. I played WoW for 8 years, and ultimatley it was the condescending attitude of people running DPS meters/healing meters that ruined it. It's just not fun.


The game works fine as it is. Please PLEASE keep it this way.

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you have to right to play however you like, but the 3/7/23 other people with you also have the right to play how they want.
you have the right to play as an ice mage and refuse to use anything other than ice spells than those other people in your team also has the right to dismiss you.

other people have the right to insult you, look down on you or harass you, but you also have the right to report them, black list them, or vote dismiss them for it.

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Originally Posted by hagare

you have to right to play however you like, but the 3/7/23 other people with you also have the right to play how they want.
you have the right to play as an ice mage and refuse to use anything other than ice spells than those other people in your team also has the right to dismiss you.

other people have the right to insult you, look down on you or harass you, but you also have the right to report them, black list them, or vote dismiss them for it.

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I like you \o/.


But anyway, with parsers (and here comes a personal opinion) i would like one in game. I dont care if it only tells me how much dps i do, but its a nice tool when used correctly. I would like to improve my performance when possible, and this is a good way to measure it.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

And then you get in game and realize that your calculations are off, because 1) potency scales weird and Full Thrust isn't 12x as much damage as Phlebotomize ticks, even without buffs, and 2) that Disembowel should probably be X*1.1, not X/.9. At least, that's what the community's been using.

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I dunno what numbers you're looking at, but the ratio of Full Thrust to Phlebotomize ticks is ~12x in-game. If you're comparing HT+Dis Full Thrust v HT+Dis Phleb, then the difference will be larger, since the Phleb dot ticks aren't piercing damage and thus aren't boosted by Disembowel. Potency scales perfectly linearly. There's RNG, of course, but the ratios are consistent, according to potency amounts. You also still don't need a parser to see these relationships. I sure didn't use one to test it out and figure out that potencies scale linearly with damage. (Since I was playing on PS3 when I did these initial calculations back in 2.0-2.1)

It should be /.9, if the game works the way the tooltip explains. It decreases piercing resistance by 10%, it doesn't increase piercing damage by 10%. These are different statements. Just because other people do it one way doesn't necessarily make it correct.

For the record:
x1.1 = x11/10
/0.9 = x10/9

Those numbers are different by 1/90. Doesn't really make much difference, except that dividing by the 0.9 is more accurate, assuming the game works the way it states in the tooltip.


This is getting a bit off-topic. The point still stands I didn't use or need a parser to calculate the numbers that give you an optimal rotation for Dragoon and Paladin. I haven't bothered looking into other classes yet, since those are my only two 60s, so no other ones matter to me at the moment. You don't need a parser to discover the skill floor for your class. You do need one to see how you're progressing toward the skill ceiling. It's really really obvious if a player isn't at the skill floor yet for Dragoon, at least to my eyes and ears. I've been playing the class since 2.0 beta phase 4. I know the sound effects and animations for all the pre-heavensward skills like the back of my hand. If someone isn't reaching that baseline plateau it is *painfully* obvious to me.

And if someone is at or above the skill floor, there's no real reason to be a dick to them, because at least they're playing "properly." If they're below, that's cause for you to offer constructive criticism and back down if they get offended.

The problem isn't parsers being illegal, it's players being too pigheaded to admit that they're doing something wrong. Hell, I've even had players respond with "So? We still cleared." after I tried to offer advice on how they could play Dragoon better because they were dealing about 50% of their potential. Maybe that would be fixed if they could see their numbers. Who knows?

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Potency scales perfectly linearly.

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Hahahahahaha...No. No it doesn't. Except when it does, sometimes. But usually it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

For the record:
x1.1 = x11/10
/0.9 = x10/9

Those numbers are different by 1/90. Doesn't really make much difference, except that dividing by the 0.9 is more accurate, assuming the game works the way it states in the tooltip.

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And the former is what all the guides go with, and is probably more accurate. And a difference of 1/90 will start giving you wrong numbers as soon as your damage exceeds 90 points, which was forever ago. Once you're up past 900 damage abilities, you're looking at 10 points off from expected value.

Without parser and zero clue how dps are doing, the game gonna be a cesspool where normal content will be nerfed.

A lot of good and average players are avoiding DF. Enough threads about "ice mages", "Heavy Shot bards", "not positional mnk/drg/ninjas",... I enjoyed to use DF, but wipe for low dps, zero performance and apathic players left me a bitter taste. Be lvl 50+ and zero knowledge about your job is disheartening

And no, nobody gonna kick one guy for 50 dps less. Doing 300, 400, 500 dps less yes. It's a mmo, where you play together others persons, you have to acommodate your playstyle or join with friends. All players want bosses and content killed. Underperforming and laziness with unknown is not allowed.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Hahahahahaha...No. No it doesn't. Except when it does, sometimes. But usually it doesn't.

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When does it not? I can't say I've ever seen such an example. I'd like for you to provide one, since I'm legitimately curious. It would be more helpful than acting smug and pretending to know something I don't know without providing anything to back you up.

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And the former is what all the guides go with, and is probably more accurate. And a difference of 1/90 will start giving you wrong numbers as soon as your damage exceeds 90 points, which was forever ago. Once you're up past 900 damage abilities, you're looking at 10 points off from expected value.

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It *should* be such that you'd divide by 0.9 rather than multiply by 1.1, according to the tooltips. I had never done testing of my own to prove it, that's just the way it should work, if the tooltips are actually accurate to the way the devs set up damage calculation. This is simply because:
No Disembowel:
100% dmg v 100% resistance = 100/100 = 100% damage
Disembowel:
100% dmg v 90% resistance = 100/90 = 111.1111% damage

However, I just ran tests on it hoping to confirm the way the tooltips say it. I was proven wrong. I didn't use a parser for this, since I feel like all of this was just an attempt to bait me into doing so. I scraped the data from my combat log by hand and entered it into excel to run the calculations.

http://puu.sh/koUcA/9108110013.png

There's more data points beyond the bottom, I just can't be arsed to clip multiple images together to show all of it. Came out to a 10% buff, so I retract my statements. x:

I included there a calculation using Sunny's damage formula to get an estimated potency for Heavy Thrust. That damage formula scales potency linearly according with damage. I feel like it would be far more disparate than 0.45% if this were a thing that doesn't scale linearly. To test THAT further, I ran another test with the whole Full Thrust combo:
http://puu.sh/koVh9/8b4d231584.png

The formula being used there is:

Damage Dealt = ((Potency/100)*(WD/25+1)*(STR/9)*(DET/7290+1)*BUFFS)-1

BUFFS in this situation is a flat 1, because the dummy has nothing special on it. But, yeah. Potency is weird and totally not linear at all? I'm really really confused as to why you would think that is the case.


And, again. All of this was done without the aid of a parsing plugin/program. A parser wouldn't have even sped things up, since the battle log as I set it up for my purposes is no less easy to read than a parse would be. Also important to note re: potecy scaling.

Vorpal Thrust:
Combo: 200
Not: 100
Diff: 100
Diff/Combo = 100/200 = 50%

Full Thrust:
Combo: 360
Not: 100
Diff: 260
Diff/Combo = 260/360 = 72%

These numbers are reflected in the battle log as the % by which damage is increased due to combo potencies. Everything seems to be backing that they scale linearly, so I'm gonna need a very convincing argument to show me that I'm wrong on this.

(how is this still on topic? I'm continuing to prove that you can calculate and discover the skill floor for your class *without* the aid of a parser, so the argument that you need one to know if you are even meeting bare minimum for your class is baseless)

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Well he definitely had the MIND to improve.

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Maybe he thought nobody else would MIND what he was wearing.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

But even then you have the off chance that players do not know their primary stats

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Which is better served by saying "Hey, I noticed you had mind accessories on. Those specifically increase healing. A bard should be using Dexterity to increase their damage." And not "dude, what is the reason to use mind accessories in a bard, Votekick attempt, facepalm".

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Thats why I even mentioned that this screenshot is a terrible example to prove either side on whether or not having a parser is good.

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And that's the only thing I'm saying about this. It doesn't have anything to do with why a parser is or isn't needed, because a parser would change absolutely nothing about that situation. I'm not saying parsers cannot prove someone is underperforming, I'm saying that it's nowhere near necessary when someone is just literally wearing the wrong gear.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Will be a pain if he doesn't learn anything from his job.

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Well, maybe you should have tried to correct him and help. Kicking him without telling him what he should be using is not going to make him get better. It's just going to make him think you're a jerk and not care what you say because he thinks you're a jerk.

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Originally Posted by hagare

other people have the right to insult you, look down on you or harass you

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No they don't. That's why there's rules against it.

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Originally Posted by rappa

you have to acommodate your playstyle or join with friends.

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How come other people have to accommodate you instead of you accommodating them? What's stopping you from joining with friends if you want to get through quickly because you know exactly how much DPS people are going to put out?

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Originally Posted by JackFross

When does it not? I can't say I've ever seen such an example. I'd like for you to provide one, since I'm legitimately curious. It would be more helpful than acting smug and pretending to know something I don't know without providing anything to back you up.

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Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

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Originally Posted by JackFross

However, I just ran tests on it hoping to confirm the way the tooltips say it. I was proven wrong. I didn't use a parser for this, since I feel like all of this was just an attempt to bait me into doing so. I scraped the data from my combat log by hand and entered it into excel to run the calculations.

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Not attempting to get you to use a parser (though ACT has this nifty sort feature that lets you easily find min/max damage, but I digress). Simply showing that trying to math out potencies doesn't quite tell the full story.

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

[QUOTE=JackFross;3342404

(how is this still on topic? I'm continuing to prove that you can calculate and discover the skill floor for your class *without* the aid of a parser, so the argument that you need one to know if you are even meeting bare minimum for your class is baseless)[/QUOTE]

Ok. Now say for example you are wondering how you did during a boss fight... maybe you missed a positional, or lagged and missed a blood for blood before a sidewinder, good luck pulling those numbers out after the dungeon is done. A number on screen would be quite amazing.I don't need to see other people's numbers to know if i did the best i could do. If I'm curious I'd ask them. Fights are messy, how about that battle litany, did it up my dps, or foe requiem... As1 Savage i have to ask my dps after every single clear on faust... frikking annoying.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Ok. Now say for example you are wondering how you did during a boss fight... maybe you missed a positional, or lagged and missed a blood for blood before a sidewinder, good luck pulling those numbers out after the dungeon is done. A number on screen would be quite amazing.I don't need to see other people's numbers to know if i did the best i could do. If I'm curious I'd ask them. Fights are messy, how about that battle litany, did it up my dps, or foe requiem... As1 Savage i have to ask my dps after every single clear on faust... frikking annoying.

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Well, that's why they already said this several pages ago:

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Originally Posted by JackFross

On the one hand, we do need an official way of measuring DPS so players who don't have access to parsing programs can self-evaluate and improve. This is good.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Sure. Have this post, this post, this post and if you really want I have a spreadsheet I could upload again...

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Well, I really hope you aren't serious...

http://puu.sh/kpfn4/3a320509a3.png

... because if you're going to try and tell me that the first link proves that there is anything other than a linear correspondence with potencies, I really don't know what to tell you. The other links all expound on the same data. Like. If you're saying one is 1% off of being exactly the correct proportion, you're making mountains out of molehills.

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I wonder why using another third party program as a tool, but you manually copied the data *coughdataminingcough* and wrote the formula yourself is considered "fine". But a parser that does the exact same you do in excel automatically for you isn't - Which also saves you 90% of the time spend over manually doing things.

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Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

I'm gonna have to ask, what is your point with you explaining how you're calculating potencies? I hope you don't think I mean that in a condescending way, I'm just confused by what that adds to the conversation. Admittedly, while I've been a part of this discussion from the beginning, I don't check back every day. I just feel like showing how you can mathematically calculate a number value that doesn't actually translate directly to what a DPS meter would say for a given fight other than perhaps a dummy fight, is not a great argument against parsing.

Not even saying you're on the side of keeping parsers out of PS players hands. I can see you did say that tool would be useful earlier on, I'm just wondering what the goal is with calculating potencies in excel and then showing us that here. To me it means, "This is the amount of potency your job potentially has if it executes all of it's abilities in correct fashion."

Basically potency =/= DPS and I'm not even sure showing that you can go math whiz with excel and calculate that number gets you in the argument here. There's not a lot of people out there who are interested in knowing their DPS for a fight who are going to go into the game, smack a dummy around for awhile, read the log and find the numbers (minus dots), pop all that into excel, find that number and then somehow apply that to a fight they're interested in improving on. Not me anyways. Taking calculus was enough. When I want to know my numbers for a fight I'd rather just run a program to tell me a number that actually has a value that means something in the scope of an encounter.

The point has been that you don't need a parser to figure out the ideal way to play your class. You only need one to confirm that you're doing so. Even still, I don't think a parser would help you figure out the ideal way to play the class. Without at least a basic idea of the math behind your class, you'll always be shy of playing it "properly" as the current meta dictates. You either get that math basis by calculating yourself (which I'm showing is "easy" to do) or by looking up a guide whose author has already done that legwork for you.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Because I'm using it to make calculations, I'm not having it read through FFXIV's files automatically to scrape and compile data for me. I really don't feel like digging through the ToS to find the exact line that prohibits datamining for you.

Though, again. Parsing programs aren't *technically* outlawed, since the GMs (generally) won't care unless you use the data they give you to harass other players.

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Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Parsers make calculations too. Probably the same ones you have when using Rxcel. Excel isn't different from parsers is the point I'm making here. But using excel over parsers just makes it unnecessary hard and time consuming on whoever decides to use that. By that sense, if you really wanted to, you could harass others using excel. Simply takes longer and more effort.

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The same ones? No. I'm calculating optimal stuff and the stuff above was calculating the advantages of a given buff to compare it against an assumption I made. All that a parser would have done for me in that situation is tabulate the data in exactly the same way I see it in the battle log. It would have been the same amount of work either way. Referring to what is essentially a calculator as a third-party program on the same level as something that scrapes data from the game and tabulates it for you is a bit of a stretch, but your point is valid, regardless.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

//Yeah, those points don't all spit out exactly the same values and the variance isn't 0, but the general trend is linear, regardless. The exact linear correspondence isn't necessarily an easy thing to find, but to openly say "Potencies sometimes aren't linear" and then throw data in my face that is essentially linear feels like you're insulting my intelligence or something.

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Show me a linear regression formula that hits all the data points I provided in that first post. Because I haven't been able to find one, even with Excel. And not "within 1%", either. Within rounding error. And of course, the second link I provided has numbers that are 2% off. Oh, and they aren't even consistently off in the same direction, as the first link shows. In fact, they aren't even consistently off. Which has been my point all along: it's impossible to derive a precise damage ratio based only on the potency ratio. Is it off by enough to substantially change things? Probably not? Then again, my NIN numbers show Raiton doing less damage than expected from a 360 potency attack, and Raiton is already on shaky ground to start with, so maybe...

This is a discussion for another thread, tbh, but out of curiosity, how many data points are you getting where you find those min/max values? You only seem to record those two rather than the full range, so I'm just curious how many times you're using these longer cooldown skills like Sneak Attack.

And the fact that it's vaguely NOT perfectly linear doesn't change the fact that, for all intents and purposes beyond *precise* calculation, it's linear "enough" to use ratios between potencies as direct correspondences to ratios between damage outputs. You're splitting hairs to prove my discussion of optimization wrong when none of your data does anything to disrupt the things I discussed in any notable way.


I don't deny that it's wonky, but the variances in the linear trend of the potencies don't matter *enough* to make the practice of using potencies as approximations of damage ratios ineffective/incorrect to any reasonable extent.

(so optimal rotations can still be reasoned out through mathematics performed on values provided in-game, without the use of a parsing program to record your actual damage output)

People still parse dungeons? I had to stop after the numerous depressing runs where my dps was higher than the healer's and both dps' combined.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

This is a discussion for another thread, tbh, but out of curiosity, how many data points are you getting where you find those min/max values? You only seem to record those two rather than the full range, so I'm just curious how many times you're using these longer cooldown skills like Sneak Attack.

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As many as it took to get the ratio very close to 21/19 for max/min. Not a big deal for, say, the Mutilate numbers, which I could usually get in about 30 seconds or so due to the low spread. Getting the SA numbers…let's just say there's a reason I don't also have TA numbers there. But to speak to the accuracy of the SA numbers, my strategy for determining accuracy is this. Take max/min (1593/1440) and subtract it from the 5% spread ratio (1.05/.95, or 21/19). If you get a negative number, you almost certainly have the full spread, because the spread is already bigger than ±5%. If it's positive, take the reciprocal and compare to the max value. In this case, that's 1826.5 vs 1593. I'd say that the spread is accurate to one point in about 1827 and so I wouldn't expect another data point.

So bottom line... unless you wanna waste a bunch of time doing math... parsers are cool

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

So bottom line... unless you wanna waste a bunch of time doing math... parsers are cool

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this made me laugh. GG

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

this made me laugh. GG

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I didn't respond to it because they're not wrong! lol

I think parsers have their place and allow people to get better at their job. As they are now, the disadvantage is that players in PS4 cannot install one and have to ask a friend to parse them (not that great a deal but inconvenient.) I see the good side of parsing being something private.

Parsing people at leveling dungeons or duty roulettes, except to know how well or bad you do, does not look too practical. A stranger won't learn a new rotation inside a dungeon, and just some tips can be given without parsing (at your own risk many times.) When you enter a leveling dungeon you know people are learning and some will be better than others. In Duty Finder you take the risk to meet not so good players or maybe players just at entry level or new to the place, for the convenience of not having to make a premade party.

I don't think kicking someone out of a dungeon (duty finder) for playing under average is justified. I can't recall all motives for kicking, but they are like being afk, being disconnected, harassment, etc. Playing terribly and with no interest, or being very undergeared, or very wrongly geared (spiritbonding all crafting gear for example) may be considered harassment, but being unexperienced or under averaged skilled not. Unwillingness to co-operate may be considered harassment too.

Party Finder is different, since you make a group that needs to progress or farm and there is much more freedom to kick. It is in extreme primals or difficult raids where parsers make sense (and striking dummies of course.) They allow you to discover you are underperforming and work to get better. Making just a few changes may improve the performance a lot, and you might not be aware of your low numbers if nobody says it to you, nor have good way of improving wihout measuring. It may be necessary to kick someone who underperforms if you want to succeed. Being polite and helpful when kicking is important too.

Edit: About personal parsers, better that than nothing, but it is more useful if you can compare. If you only see your numbers you don't know how well/bad you do unless other people tell you what is considered good/bad at that gear.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

I think parsers have their place and allow people to get better at their job. As they are now, the disadvantage is that players in PS4 cannot install one and have to ask a friend to parse them (not that great a deal but inconvenient.) I see the good side of parsing being something private.

Parsing people at leveling dungeons or duty roulettes, except to know how well or bad you do, does not look too practical. A stranger won't learn a new rotation inside a dungeon, and just some tips can be given without parsing (at your own risk many times.) When you enter a leveling dungeon you know people are learning and some will be better than others. In Duty Finder you take the risk to meet not so good players or maybe players just at entry level or new to the place, for the convenience of not having to make a premade party.

I don't think kicking someone out of a dungeon (duty finder) for playing under average is justified. I can't recall all motives for kicking, but they are like being afk, being disconnected, harassment, etc. Playing terribly and with no interest, or being very undergeared, or very wrongly geared (spiritbonding all crafting gear for example) may be considered harassment, but being unexperienced or under averaged skilled not. Unwillingness to co-operate may be considered harassment too.

Party Finder is different, since you make a group that needs to progress or farm and there is much more freedom to kick. It is in extreme primals or difficult raids where parsers make sense (and striking dummies of course.) They allow you to discover you are underperforming and work to get better. Making just a few changes may improve the performance a lot, and you might not be aware of your low numbers if nobody says it to you, nor have good way of improving wihout measuring. It may be necessary to kick someone who underperforms if you want to succeed. Being polite and helpful when kicking is important too.

Edit: About personal parsers, better that than nothing, but it is more useful if you can compare. If you only see your numbers you don't know how well/bad you do unless other people tell you what is considered good/bad at that gear.

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But you end up doing the same dungeons over and over again. A personal parser would let you see how you did and see if you are improving.