I loved the Erenville field trip, too. I can understand the reaction being "we need to get back", though. The city was clearly about to become a battle zone and, if nothing else, the twins were there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AureliaF
What I want to know is, why wasn't sticking our finger to our ear to use our linkpearl to warn them the first thing we did? The writers seemingly just forgot the linkpearls were a thing, even though we made sure the whole group had them back at level 90.And we know we didn't use it of screen cus a character (I think Alphinaud?) says that the ships struck without warning. I'm not saying us sending off a warning would have done much. It would have likely only given our friends a minute or two advantage. But it's a little detail whose omission speaks to the unpolished nature of some of this writing.
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07-10-2024, 02:00 PMAlleluia
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07-10-2024, 05:04 PMColdau
Hi, haven't read all of this yet because I'm an adhd addled goblin- but I very much agree with everything I've read so far. Because I haven't read it yet completely, I'm sorry If I repeat any points.
One of my biggest problems with the plot is how is feels like it utilizes the characters as tools for the narrative, instead of making the characters PART of the narrative. Things happen in the plot because they need to happen, screw if the characters should know better.
Honestly, I RP a lot- not within FFXIV's world, but in a personally crafted world. I see pitfalls in the writing for my RPs that I see in this expansion. I see a narrative that's been crafted after the world building, letting the world building fill in the gaps for side characters rather than giving the side characters true personalities. It's very much easy to write a character with the illusion of a personality, but they're just a cliche wrapped around world building. (Example: Golbez)
Another thing I see is rushing for plot beats, and therefore making shallow work of the character's revelations and growth. They want these characters to have a huge journey, but are impatient for that character's journey- and therefore, they rush things where they shouldn't rush, and lull in the story where they shouldn't lull.
These things should not be problems for a professional writing TEAM. A team with multiple people. These are the problems of an amateur with no oversight or talk from teammates.
The things I did like were the last zone. I liked Erenville. I didn't like how we, the character, treated Erenville despite knowing he was suffering. I liked what the narrative was presenting.
But it was spoonfed. We weren't given time to dwell on the mysteries. We didn't get time to theory build. It was a gallop through the plot.
We didn't get a character with meaningful trials for their growth. They had things given to them step by step, and even though I love her- wuk lamat should have faced more trials. She should have had... a lot more growth as a person. Should have had more faults in her character. Should have had just... more.
I enjoyed the expansion, but it could have been better. A lot better. The horror of solution 9 should have lasted longer. The scions shouldn't have been accessories they should have been fun.
The actors for the characters played their hearts out though, and I feel like they did stellar. It's the writing that lacked.
And now to never post again. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in agreement with a lot of what you said.
P.S.: The WOL was written more like a WoW Player character in this expansion than ever before. This is not a good thing. -
07-10-2024, 06:09 PMMnemyGods, This is my problem too. Erenville was done so dirty in this expac. Look I know the way they wrote the guy in this expac is that he is grumpy and standoffish but, with the way he talks about his mom whenever shes brought up, it might be reserved but there fondness respect and unending love there. It's obvious he has gripes with her style of parenting ofcourse but there is love there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyon
When we were going through his part in the story and he was going through his grief of letting his mom go, I was expecting a Magnus from ShB levels of nuanced take on grief for him but we didnt get that here. Yes he was sad but it doesn't fit with how a grief this large and all encompassing should be handled. Imagine one moment your mom is fine, you can finally see her after years of being gone. You know she's hale and whole and then the next you are told she only has 3 hours left to live. That kind of grief is like a sucker punch to the gut, It's ugly, it consumes you, it can put a man on their knees, it can cause friction or a dilemma with your companions because you are GRIEVING and in DENIAL. We didnt get that here. We didnt get friction, we didnt get ANYTHING substantial.
I feel like they stole something from Erenville in this expansion bros... -
07-10-2024, 07:45 PMBunyonHonestly, I feel like they kinda stole it from Krile too. She learns she's from another shard halfway through the expansion (and she's excited about it) and absolutely nothing significant involving her happens until the very end, where we meet and resolve her parents in MAYBE one hour. They really should have introduced them earlier in some regard, or at least some information on them or anything, like when they analyze the earring. It just didn't work for me at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnemy
I understand that the first half of the expansion was world building but they wasted way too much time that would have been better served in character development in the second half. -
07-10-2024, 08:03 PMPoiyomin
Thank you for posting this. I feel like in-depth criticism was always needed ever since finishing this MSQ, which only left a lingering negative aftertaste for the most part due to how poorly it was executed regardless of the plot it was given, and I'm glad people are contributing to the discussion in a level-headed manner.
It feels particularly frustrating when voicing complaints or criticism regarding this expansion as every single response to it has only been met with..."toxic positivity"?, from the people who blindly defends it ignoring all the flaws it had that was particularly frustrating for the people who cares about it.
Seems like everything is just met with "you just skipped the cutscenes didn't you?", "you just hate Wuk Lamat.", "you just don't care at all about Tural.", "not everything has to be about you." And it's just tiring and shouldn't be the way to go. -
07-10-2024, 08:38 PMIximaz
I think the part that jumps out to me the most in Dawntrail as emblematic of where its writing falls short is in the Vrtra cutscene.
We leave Koana behind to deal with the spaceship threat, with the implication that his technological expertise will see him devise some sort of defense for the city. Instead, we get a literal draco ex machina with no prior buildup—only an aside after the fact that Alphinaud and Estinien took care of negotiations.
There are a couple of ways this could be fixed if the writers were set on the Vrtra route. Show us Koana using his newfound people skills to negotiate an alliance. Have Alphinaud mention in a cutscene he'll take Estinien and go appeal to Vrtra for aid. Give us a "Meanwhile, in Thavnair..." Or have Wuk Lamat use her people skills while Koana comes with us to Solution 9.
The way that it stands now, it feels like there was no sufficient buildup for what is meant to be a cool payoff. The writers instead dangle the nostalgia keys of "You liked Endwalker, right?" in the player's face to make up for the narrative shortcoming. A lot of the plot is the same—not enough buildup for a resolution that feels unsatisfying and unearned.
I also despise how poorly Krile was handled in what was meant to be an expansion for her. She begins and ends Dawntrail exactly the same—she experiences no growth over the course of the story, and the writers drop shiny backstory on her in place of actual development. She has no emotional reaction to the revelation that she's from another shard, at least not one we get to see, because by the time the player learns about this, she was told all of this offscreen. (Again, the writers telling and not showing.) She's unnaturally cheerful after meeting the AI facsimiles of her parents. And, in a story that really loved to emphasise the importance of found family, not once is any mention made of how she and G'raha were raised together. Hell, she introduces him to her parents as a colleague before turning around and addressing him as Raha. It's like the writers forgot why she's allowed to drop the prefix with him and it feels bizarre.
The Scions were paid so little attention to by the narrative in the moments when it really would have been warranted. It was nice to see them take a backseat for a while, but the moment a starwide threat showed up, we should have been calling in all hands on deck. Instead, we got an aside from talking to G'raha between quest objectives: "I have a mind to inform Thancred and Urianger as well, but they may have already left Tural."
[deep inhale]
There is so little sense of urgency in spite of the looming threat. Why weren't we at least attempting to call Thancred and Urianger? Why didn't we mention Estinien was in the area? Instead, the Scions just wander in, stage left.
There was just so little care for the story that came before while using it as a crutch to tell the story that's coming now. -
07-10-2024, 09:24 PMnakano13The toxic positivity has definitely been an issue for the past few years in this community. Some people seem to take any type of criticism against this game as a personal attack against themselves and will lash out to defend the game against any kind of valuable negative feedback (and negative feedback is very useful and needed for the development team in order to improve as long as it is constructive). I've been playing this game since ARR was released, and I've never felt this disappointed in the MSQ and journey until DT (even SB, despite its flaws, had me very satisfied by the end of the MSQ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Poiyomin
I have an educational background in a creative field that involved media analysis and screenplay writing, and even won first place in a short story competition for an original script I wrote -- I don't call myself an expert writer, but I think I can hold my own when it comes to analyzing storytelling and being able to understand the elements that make a story good from those that are bad. Being told that my criticism is only because I "skipped the cutscenes..didn't like Wuk Lamat...don't have media literacy skills" -- there are too many logical fallacies being thrown about as a deflection against any constructive criticism received, and this is extremely dangerous for this game's future if we are to have any hope that the upcoming narrative will improve in its execution to tell a compelling story at the caliber that was set in previous expacs.
I would love to be a fly on the wall of the development team's DT post-mortem. -
07-10-2024, 09:57 PMVoidmageYeah. There was basically no reaction to Krile being from another shard just an “oh cool whatever”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iximaz
Even her musing about why Y’sthola didn’t recognize this while answered was just an offside mumbling of her with Y’sthola right next to her.
Thancred and Urianger were just there in the end because “hey look those guys are still here and fight but we don’t show that and also because of the second trial”.
Anyone remember ARR where Thancred was fighting while Y’sthola was casting flow? That was in ARR and DT has nothing in this regard.
No magic bubble, Scions just standing there.
Vitra was also stupid.
You tell me that big dragon and his brood traveled half the world in what, two days?
How convenient.
The most stupid thing though was the finale right before the final zone.
The scions almost all standing back and not coming with us. Sure you guys. You had to protect the gate that was utterly hidden with 4 mages and 2 close combat fighters. Hmhm sure.
There wasn‘t even a scene showing them fighting not anything even implying they had trouble. Guess they just sit back playing cards the entire time, at least Estenien and Thancred.
The more you look the more plot holes shine through.
For me it seems they really wrote themselfs into a trap with the trust system.
They have to include the scions even though they can‘t utilize them.
Why not give us other NPC’s as trust then?
Why not have Bagool JaJa come with us or Koana as well? Heck even introducing a captain of the Guard or something would have worked or even better, don’t kill off Robo-Otis and have him come with us as trust.
Would have also been an interesting meeting with him and his endless version.
The characters are there, the ideas basically write themself. -
07-10-2024, 10:20 PMchizLemonsAs a huge G'raha fan, I was heartbroken at how they handled him and his relationship with Krile - so much so that I couldn't even enjoy the one supposed-to-be-good gondola scene. I always felt like they should show more about their friendship and I was expecting this to be the opportunity for that...BUT NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iximaz
Nevermind how G'raha just isn't acting in character at all, they treat eachother like strangers.
I have screenshots of every single line he said. They're either out of character comments about what is happening, just obvious repetitive factual comments about what they literally just talked about, or just a bunch of nothings like "Let's wait and see", "We will be here for Erenville" - NO ONE WAS THERE FOR ERENVILLE...
Krile's indifference already started when they get to Tural.
https://i.postimg.cc/fWBCpQTT/image.png
https://i.postimg.cc/k5qt7DTr/image.png
"Helpers", "comrades". But she is just introducing them, right? Then after the serious dialogue, we will get some friendly conversation between them, right? Right??? Maybe she will thank him for taking care of the Students for her sake (even though that was completely unnecessary!!!)...right?
Nope. They don't speak directly again for a long time. No one does, they're all just business. G'raha just wants to be useful...what, did we expect him to be excited to be going on a new adventure?!
https://i.postimg.cc/K8k519SP/image.png
And then in Living Memory...
https://i.postimg.cc/P5WccFLX/image.png
"My COLLEAGUE". I get introducing his full name, but couldn't you say also...FRIEND?
https://i.postimg.cc/SQHKdJF6/image.png
But HE said they're friends, so they're friends. We don't have to SEE IT...no need to show when you're telling.
This is when he offers to grab the tasteless icre cream...which...that ice cream scene. I hate it. It's PAINFUL to watch, incredibly out of character. It's like they were forcing a stupid situation to have him eat on screen, because they don't understand WHY people liked to see him eat happily - it's NOT 'haha catboy eat food', by the way. How come G'raha, the kind, close friend that just knows exactly what to say to comfort people, wouldn't SAY anything to get a conversation started? Maybe tell stories about them?
Huge missed opportunity to have a heartfelt dialogue that showed G'raha's empathy and care for his friend, hear some stories from Krile and have a nice bonding moments with her parents before we get sent to the lala lore museum that exists for some reason. -
07-10-2024, 10:32 PMIximazFreaking THANK YOU. After he stayed behind to help with the Students of Baldesion (after we promised to take him on adventures!), I was really hoping we would get some payoff about how much it meant to Krile that he was willing to stay in order to give her the opportunity to learn more about her grandfather, and we would get to see more of their relationship fleshed out. Instead, it's so underutilised that they behave like mildly good acquaintances at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by chizLemons