YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

WTB Feign Death for my Bard hehe.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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Because they were? You just cited two initially frequent examples (MD and TotT, though no, the latter was not used for a DPS boost -- it had no dps boost outside of certain short-lived [or, "borrowed"] powers; the PvE form of Honor Among Thieves was party-wide, not specific to the Rogue's TotT target).

But even without threat-transfer, if there's a melee enemy and you have the means to slow it permanently to 70% movement, why would one prefer to take even a tank's amount of damage (which was scarcely less, originally, than any plate DPS) over just taking none, especially so long as it's near enough to the tank-held mobs that everyone's cleaving all of them anyways?

It was only after repeated tank buffs to the point that most tanks largely didn't need a healer even for relatively challenging dungeon content that parties basically stopped bothering with the complete mitigation of kiting melee mobs, threat management to time when the tank takes over, any CC beyond AoE stuns, etc., and just ran to boss, AoEed everything down, and repeated.

Heck, when heroic first came out, pulls began with all but tanks. Hard CC, Misdirection (ideally), ranged pull usually from a DPS. The more precise and/or dangerous the pull, the less you see it rely entirely on the tank; it becomes a matter of the most effective use of toolkit(s), not "I have the shield graphic, so only I pull."

Is it surprising then that XIV, for which any mainstay content with more than a single pull per instance devolves into "run to gate, AoE everything, repeat, boss; repeat"? Not especially. But even here it has its occasional unique utility. Mobs out of range of tank AoEs? A Ranged shot pulls them in sooner so they're caught by it, facilitating that tank's use of its kit. Add spawns that will be diverted to the healer, who's set up for the next mechanic and cannot stack towards boss? Ranged can pull them in with a quick Rain of Death so the tanks aren't wasting time. Etc.

And while buffing the living hell out of tanks may diminish the rewards for playing as a team instead of just zug-zugging any and all dungeons, the one thing it doesn't do is increase the penalty for someone else pulling so long as they don't do so in an utterly idiotic fashion. As all unavoidable damage will be concentrated on the tank once they have full threat, so long as others do not consume any healing/tank resources inefficiently in accelerating a gather, what health they lose is just bonus eHP for the tank.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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I'm saying there weren't any "designated pullers" in WoW. There wasn't any reason to make it "only tanks may pull." It was irrelevant who pulled. That said, there were many cases where you'd prefer someone other than the tank pull. If a Hunter needs to trap a specific enemy or otherwise have enemies run into a trap at a specific place, it might be easier for the Hunter to do the pull. It doesn't *have* to be the Hunter, anyone can do it, but in those cases you'd generally default to having the Hunter pull them so they can control exactly where they go.

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Originally Posted by Regentwill

I'm not going to offer a rebuttal to this since I've already talked about these games. Any modern game with the holy trinity by and large uses tank pulls. What you are saying is wrong. I've played those games, I've been deep in the community. WoW has NEVER had a time where DPS pulled to the tank with the one exception of pulls where a hunter had to use a special ability that sent their aggro the the tank. And that was used rarely to pull and more often to boost aggro when the tank pulls. Rogues aggro shift was used on other DPS most of the time for a DPS boost and not to pull.

I don't know how you could possibly think that in WoW DPS were pullers.

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Because they could. Hunters were consistantly used especially in dungeons like Molten Core to pull far off mobs, run back and feign death just before the raid nabbed incoming. I played WoW for 8 yrs and perfprmed that plenty of times.

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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No, it's not. It's not "common courtesy." The person that marked targets for CC was the person who had the most experience in the content, not the tank. That's still the case.

And the person that sets the pace in dungeons in XIV is the *healer*, not the tank.

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

Because, who wipes in dungeons?

Exactly, you almost never wipe, because they're not that hard to do at all, and in the tiny 1% offchance you do wipe, you can slow down sure, but other then that, tank pulls and sets the pace, period.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

95% of the time in WoW tanks pulled, noon else, only times it wouldn't be was in old dungeons if you had a mage do a sheep pull or hunter trap pull, that's it, but even then, the tank would mark what to cc first.

Same in FF14, out of all the dungeons I've done, maybe once or twice there was a person pulling more on purpose.

Same with ESO, swtor, Tera, any mmo I've ever played.

Regentwill is right, it's common courtesy in mmo's to let the tank set the pace and pull vast majority of time in random dungeons.

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I always deferred to the tank or raid leader also but then that was back when courtesy to your members was paramount and not just some alpha tank barreling from one set of mobs and or boss to another with zero words or a care for the rest of the group :).

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

Because, who wipes in dungeons?

Exactly, you almost never wipe, because they're not that hard to do at all, and in the tiny 1% offchance you do wipe, you can slow down sure, but other then that, tank pulls and sets the pace, period.

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Again: no. The healer is who sets the pace. Prior to tanks getting their EW skills, they *cannot* survive a full W2W with a healer that's asleep at the wheel. Nor can the healer keep the tank alive if the DPS aren't doing their jobs.

Go pull W2W in Mt. Gulg with a weak healer or bad DPS and tell me again that it's the tank that sets the pace.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

And the person that sets the pace in dungeons in XIV is the *healer*, not the tank.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Healer sets nothing in FF14, and that's coming from someone who mainly plays one and does dungeons daily.

Tank just goes sprinting in and pulls as much as they know they can handle or hit the wall, rest follow him and do their thing.

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I think you may each be approaching "sets the pace" a little differently.

The tank is free to run ahead, pull all a dangerous number of mobs and --if not a Warrior-- die for having done so. Of course, so is everyone else. Does that count, then, as setting the pace?

The tank's decision, if made deliberately, to pull X amount of mobs will usually be informed by the available throughput of their healer and damage-dealers. Does that mean that the healer and damage-dealers, in turn, set the pace?

More importantly, though, does it matter? If the success of a given pull in any content with both difficulty and a chance that not all CDs will be up depends on every role, does it much matter whether a player forces or merely informs pull length?

Should the fact that a Warrior, for instance, can solo almost every existing dungeon (due to their presently pitiful difficulty in this game) mean that the only relevant "pace-setter" could ever be tanks? Across all (or even potential) content types?
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Tl;dr:

I feel like too often consequences of XIV's idiosyncrasies (almost no difficult 4-man content, zero CC, high degrees of homogeneity across all classes of a given role, little to no team interaction beyond raid buff stacking, a community that more than most prefers reliability over exploration, etc.) are taken as fundamental and pervasive when they're anything but.

Here, because the relevant content is so limited in scope and complexity, a tank may be the one who typically "sets the pace" (in the sense of carrying the least expectation to discuss or even tacitly show the reasoning behind their decisions in the size or pace of their pulls), but that's simply because of that narrowness of the content. It is not fundamental.

And, more importantly, what those contexts have taken from the rewards for ingenuity (kiting, CC, threat-handoffs, etc.), they've also reduced from the opportunity costs of anyone pulling so long as they don't do so in the dumbest of ways.