Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

It just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't spell out something like that clearly when it would've likely convinced more people that Venat was right and the MSQ narrative was already trying to spin things that way to begin with.

After recalling that thread about localization, though, I'm wondering how that particular quote was worded in the other translations because it's another example of something that can potentially give off a very different impression.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I was expecting to get more context behind that situation, but instead they focused on the ideology behind the action, not the morality.

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Wasn't EW supposed to provide the answers to everything? No more mysteries? Instead, it seems like we know less than before and have more questions. I don't like having to pick apart the meaning of NPC dialog because things like Hydaelyn's summoning are still being written about ambiguously.

Putting aside how absolutely mind-boggling it is to me to assert that you should reasonably expect people to just suck up and live with knowing that their loved ones are locked into a fate worse than death for eternity - I suppose that's still a matter of personal perspective, no matter how much I may boggle - and the loaded questions regarding the specifics of the sacrifices to which nobody has any actual concrete answers - there is one thing brought up that does have an answer in the text:

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

All these solutions are hypotheticals that we have no evidence are possible, but let’s assume you could just gather enough aether another way. Why then, did the Convocation decide to use the souls of the living, if such alternatives exist? Did they just go for the easy option?

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Because at the time they managed to summon Zodiark and stabilize the situation, everything else was dead. The planet was on fire. The waters were poisoned. The wind had ceased to blow. There was literally nothing left to use except Ancient souls. That was the entire reason for the plan to gradually nurture other forms of life back into the planet until it was "bursting with vitality," so "a portion of it" could then be safely swapped with the trapped Ancients.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, isn't that pretty hard evidence? Why would there be a debate about entrusting the future of the star to plants and wildlife?

Furthermore, why didn't Emet-Selch mention it, if the original plan was to sacrifice plants and animals? He spent all of Shadowbringers trying to convince the WoL to come over to his side, but never deployed that incredibly powerful argument? Why wouldn't he, if that was the case?

Also - if non-sentient life was fine before, why do the inhabitants of the source have to be sacrificed later? Why wouldn't Emet-Selch say, "after we restore the world and your souls to your unsundered state, and bring Zodiark back, we will begin demanding tributes of farm animals in order to collect enough aether to bring our bretheren back, and then resume our place as benevolent stewards of the star"? He'd probably get way more people to cooperate with him with that.

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Yeah, this is very much the thing. For the third sacrifice to be a point too far, that third one needs to be severe either in what they're sacrificing or how much they're sacrificing. If that means 'sentient lives' to you then that's what it means to you, but it could also mean 'sacrifice all non-sentient plants and animals in South America' and that would still be an objectionably huge sacrifice. There's reasons we care about the Amazon rainforest after all, and it's not because the Amazon is sentient.

If the third sacrifice was something on the level of 'let's sacrifice a bunch of cows and that'll do it', then that makes both sides look like fools; it makes Venat and her group look crazy for being mad about what's clearly a much lesser sacrifice, and it makes the Convocation look stupid for not doing that in the first place.

The actual content of the third sacrifice is not important, but what matters is that it's a call worth going 'WHOA HEY HOLD UP HERE'.

It's important to remember that the sacrifices only needed to be conducted in the first place because of Venat's refusal to share knowledge of the impending approach of the Final Days. We also know that Venat did not actually oppose the sacrifices at any point - it was simply the excuse she chose to hide behind so that she could refuse to share what she knew of Meteion and indulge Hermes' bizarre and utterly deranged 'test'.

The actual reason for the Sundering - although I strongly disagree with it - is that Venat believed that the Ancients could not beat Meteion and that they would be destined to end up like the denizens of the Plenty. Of course, that was only her belief and not a guarantee.

Let us also not forget that Venat chose to inflict genocide upon every living being present on Etheirys at the time. The idea that she wanted to serve as a selfless heroine and defend the vague 'new life' simply does not fit with that. Whatever the 'new life' happened to be? Well, it was murdered - by Venat's own hand.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's important to remember that the sacrifices only needed to be conducted in the first place because of Venat's refusal to share knowledge of the impending approach of the Final Days.

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Don't make me go through the exhaustive list of reasons that she couldn't do this again.

The first sacrifice wasn't objected to because it actually WAS needed. It sucked, nobody was happy to do it, but the options were either 'sacrifice half the ancient population' or 'the entire planet dies'. That's a heavy decision, but it's also ultimately not a choice. The second sacrifice she clearly objected to, but ultimately could not stop.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Don't make me go through the exhaustive list of reasons that she couldn't do this again.

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Good, that spares us from having to debunk said exhaustive list again.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't spell out something like that clearly when it would've likely convinced more people that Venat was right and the MSQ narrative was already trying to spin things that way to begin with.

After recalling that thread about localization, though, I'm wondering how that particular quote was worded in the other translations because it's another example of something that can potentially give off a very different impression.

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I doubt they felt the need to. The Ascians have shown themselves incredibly selective about who they extend moral consideration. Logically the idea that Venats faction is suggesting to turn over the world to the Behemoths and Morbols of the world doesn’t make much sense, as it wouldn’t achieve their goal and would more likely lead to dismissing their criticisms out of hand. Not to mention the idea requires a great deal of gymnastics even when viewed from the side of the Convocation. In this interpretation of events the Convocation wouldn’t actually need to sacrifice half of the world, as apparently other sources of aether could suffice, nor would they need to sacrifice the denizens of the Source in order to bring them back. We would need a better reason for their decision, or we would have to accept that they haphazardly choose the method they did.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Putting aside how absolutely mind-boggling it is to me to assert that you should reasonably expect people to just suck up and live with knowing that their loved ones are locked into a fate worse than death for eternity

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See this is the problem woth this discussion. My position that I don’t think it right to sacrifice living beings in order to bring back their loved ones is somehow telling into me telling grieving families to suck it up. I can have the deepest empathy for someone’s loss while recognizing that their grief doesn’t justify sacrifice. The fact is those souls in Zodiark willingly gave up their bodies to become Him knowing what that meant.

Also where does it come from now they were “locked in a fate worse than death?” Hyth certainly seemed to be ok, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

- I suppose that's still a matter of personal perspective, no matter how much I may boggle - and the loaded questions regarding the specifics of the sacrifices to which nobody has any actual concrete answers - there is one thing brought up that does have an answer in the text:

Because at the time they managed to summon Zodiark and stabilize the situation, everything else was dead. The planet was on fire. The waters were poisoned. The wind had ceased to blow. There was literally nothing left to use except Ancient souls. That was the entire reason for the plan to gradually nurture other forms of life back into the planet until it was "bursting with vitality," so "a portion of it" could then be safely swapped with the trapped Ancients.

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So there were no crystals? No other sources of aether at all? And the Ascians, when sacrificing those on the Source, are just doing it out of spite?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Good, that spares us from having to debunk said exhaustive list again.

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“Debunk” is not the word to describe the responses to that list of reasons I’ve seen.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm not sure why I keep seeing claims that sentient lives would be involved with the third round of sacrifices when there's nothing to indicate such aside from a desire to "entrust the future of the star" to them on the part of Venat's faction.

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Really, the base reason is "because the devs kept dodging the question so there's no definite answer, and why would they be so evasive about a simple 'yeah, it was just general life-aether of the planet and not people' response?"

Even if that actually is the answer, the avoidance of giving it raises questions which Endwalker has failed to address.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Good, that spares us from having to debunk said exhaustive list again.

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Mm. I know a number of posters - Lauront included - have posts with clear sources that have been posted in response to such claims. At one point I had them bookmarked though something tells me hunting them down would prove to be a waste of time when they're deliberately overlooked and/or downplayed.