Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The presentation we get of the Sundering is frustratingly non-literal and I don't know if we're supposed to take that as how the confrontation went or not. In the same sequence we see Hyth farewelling Hades, which can't be part of the same event as he must have been one of the first two successful sacrifices to Zodiark (since his soul is up there on the moon) some time before Venat/Hydaelyn prevented the third from taking place.

If nothing else, from the cave paintings in Qitana I was expecting to see more of an epic clash of goddess-Hydaelyn against Zodiark than "Venat walks in and stabs the ground".

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It was presented in an 'artsy' manner, though the events happened as they were shown for the most part. Ultimately Venat murdered and betrayed her own people and the Ascians were simply always working to reverse that much in the same way as the Sundered were fighting to avoid being wiped out themselves.

Had the Sundering been an accident or something that happened because Venat, too, lost her memories during the confrontation with Hermes then she would have walked away from it all looking a lot better than she did.

Ultimately, though, Venat simply ended up being one of the main reasons for most of the conflicts within the setting and did very little to actively remedy the situation that came about.

I can only speculate, but I imagine that much like 5.3 the story was meant to go in a different direction only to be tweaked at the last minute. Maybe we'll get some hints at what the alternative was set to be in interviews or some such.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

To an extent... but at the same time, people first fell in love with Hyth back when he was literally faceless in SHB lol

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I'm one of those, but he just seemed nice. Emet was far harder to sympathise with because of all the awful things he has done – stirring up empires and wars, his first introduction being quite awful and manipulative to Varis... since then they've done a lot more looking at who he was before all that, though I could never quite reconcile that encouraged sympathy with him inflicting suffering on so many people. It's good to hear his younger untempered self be so horrified by the prospect of his later actions, though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her.

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Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm one of those, but he just seemed nice. Emet was far harder to sympathise with because of all the awful things he has done – stirring up empires and wars, his first introduction being quite awful and manipulative to Varis... since then they've done a lot more looking at who he was before all that, though I could never quite reconcile that encouraged sympathy with him inflicting suffering on so many people. It's good to hear his younger untempered self be so horrified by the prospect of his later actions, though.

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To be fair, the only reason he engaged in all of that was due to Venat's actions...

Ultimately he worked to attempt to prevent his race and culture from being wiped out entirely, which is an admirable enough goal. The alternative would be to simply roll over and die. It's much the same for the Garleans, really - had they not done what they did, they would have been wiped out.

Ultimately, Venat is to blame for much of the story's conflicts. She is the one who forced the existence of such suffering, by her own admission. Emet was simply seeking the preservation of his people, which is an admirable act. It's unfortunate that such would come at the cost of other beings, though the only reason it came to that is due to - again - Venat.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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I don't think it's hypocritical. Especially when there's a big difference in regards to how the player character is forced to interact with sad female characters compared to sad male characters. There's also a lot of people over on the lore forum who defended Hydaelyn/Venat for years based on her 'soft voice' and being a 'benevolent mother'. Apologies if I hit a nerve, though - it most certainly wasn't my intention!

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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Perhaps not but i think there’s signs even in the game itself that point to this. Look at Omega for example, who chose to use his “hot” female form when talking to us. I think it’s also the pretty clear cut reason as to why they decided to make Meteion a “cute” little bird girl, so it would be easier for people to sympathize with her. It’s a typical trope anyhow, with the beautiful nice seeming lady or child who ends up being evil etc, and i believe that’s used far more than there is an attractive or cute guy turning out to be evil(but obviously there’s examples of that as well).But i think theres a noticeable bias where yknow, we go and hug Meteion or dont harbor any hard feelings for Venat, yet in for example (pandaemonium spoilers)

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever Lahabrea is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I'd re-read her post. She's not making that point. Quite the opposite. Though I agree.

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Oops that’s a my bad then lol.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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While I agree with you on the point about Venat's looks being the primary reason why people like her (I don't think that's the reason, I think its the way she's portrayed in the story) in Emet's case, he actually was not intended to be hot. (tbh I think he looks pretty average) I think it was his story that made him attractive to the player base, not his appearance. I don't recall him being that popular when he first showed up in towards the end of stormblood although ofc I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Perhaps not but i think there’s signs even in the game itself that point to this. Look at Omega for example, who chose to use his “hot” female form when talking to us. I think it’s also the pretty clear cut reason as to why they decided to make Meteion a “cute” little bird girl, so it would be easier for people to sympathize with her. It’s a typical trope anyhow, with the beautiful nice seeming lady or child who ends up being evil etc, and i believe that’s used far more than there is an attractive or cute guy turning out to be evil(but obviously there’s examples of that as well).But i think theres a noticeable bias where yknow, we go and hug Meteion or dont harbor any hard feelings for Venat, yet in for example (pandaemonium spoilers)

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever Lahabrea is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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This argument would hold more weight if we didnt spend a significant chunk of 5.3 and EW being very sympathetic to Elidibus AND Emet.

Were literally given the option to

apologize to Eli before he sends us to the past. We redouble the how to Emet to not waste his legacy/his peoples legacy. We are offered a chance to promise Amon will help him find an answer to his question in the next life. Laha is the singular expectation and that includes Mitron and Loghrif from Eden. Its also not a guarantee at all that it stays that way.

Really in general EW treats ALL the Ancient aligned characters with tons of sympathy, it gives us chances to bond/mourn/forgive ALL of them if we so choose. The idea that they played favorites based on gender or alignment just rings false when so much times is spent with each of them.

Which goes back to the main point. Not that people have to like Venat, but implying people that do are more influenced by her looks and people who love the Unsundered only do so on the strength of there backstory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly cause there is no actual way to prove that, but secondly because ALL the Ancients are going to appeal to large swaths of people based off looks AND writing. None of them pass for anything less then beautiful or cute. There backstory's all come from the same root.

If you have preference for one over the other that's fine, but its down to preference, not some objective but totally unprovable fact that people who like the pretty sad girl do so mostly because she is pretty while people who like the pretty depressed man do so mostly off the strength of his writing.

Reality is its a mix of both and there is no real way to quantify it at all.

You can also really like both (Which is where I stand)

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

While I agree with you on the point about Venat's looks being the primary reason why people like her (I don't think that's the reason, I think its the way she's portrayed in the story) in Emet's case, he actually was not intended to be hot. (tbh I think he looks pretty average) I think it was his story that made him attractive to the player base, not his appearance. I don't recall him being that popular when he first showed up in towards the end of stormblood although ofc I could be wrong.

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He wasn't particularly popular in SB. I remember people groaning over Ascians being reintroduced to the plot because at the time they were flatter than Zenos character-wise. No one could have guessed what we were in for :P

And yeah, I don't find SHB Emet or Elpis Emet pretty/handsome (especially standing next to Hermes and Hyth) but the combo of his mannerisms and story made him my fav. I think the character designer even said they were surprised he was so popular because he wasn't Final Fantasy Handsome Anime Man™

I have never been a fan of Hydaelyn starting from ARR, so I certainly didn't go into EW expecting to like her, but even I liked Venat in Elpis. It's the decisions she made afterwards that are the problem. I understand people don't want to dislike her, especially as the game strong-armed the WoL into being BFFs with her. It's funny, I figured they wouldn't make her evil because players might be upset they were championing an antagonist, but I didn't expect that they would be so heavy handed in that you must like her and think what she did was for the best. Honestly, between her and Hermes I felt like the narrative was gaslighting me.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever <redacted> is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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This has become one of my pet peeves in the game. My character emoting/expressing in ways that don't match how I feel as a player. It's never been as insufferable as it has been in EW though. It felt like being able to name and customize my WoL was just a technicality, ultimately I'm RPing someone else's character who feels very differently about certain things than I do. Maybe it's always been this way and it's taken me until EW to realize it, but it sucks. I may as well just fantasia into Ardbert. :P