The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

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Originally Posted by Kraniel

I'll kind of repeat myself but ... Why would anyone care so much that tanks do W2W pulls in 60+ or 70+ dungeons though ?

Sure, W2W is the norm in expert roulette, but personally when i jump into leveling roulette or anything that could put me in a lower level dungeon, i don't "expect" tanks do go W2W. If they do, it's better, but if they don't, who cares. To me all dungeons before 80 are casual content, and no one should have to worry about W2W pulls there in my opinion.

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Because the Twelve forbid a dungeon take even 30 seconds longer than someone's subjective idea of how long it should go when they let the game randomly match them with other people. They think somehow that every single player has the same abilities and experiences and groups never have to make adjustments to play in ways that work for that individual collection of people.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is single pulls at any level rage is a waste.

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Not really, a new rank jumping into Stone Vigil at min Ilevel is going to get destroyed if they get too cocky. Same with a lot of dungeons for newer players.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Not... really if I'm being honest. There is only one mob in all the Shadowbringers' dungeons you should prioritize stunning, you don't need to small pull to understand where to put your invuln as you can basically feel that out as you go and "making camp" is when the game forces you to stop. There weren't even any noteworthy range mobs, and practically every AoE is generic stuff we've seen for years now from trash. In other words, if you've been wall pulling throughout Stormblood, none of the dungeons in Shadowbringers differ enough for you to change your tactics.

Case in point, I'll rely my experiences. I medium pulled Holminster mostly because it being literal day one I wasn't aware of how far I could go. I started medium pulling Don Mehg but wound up doing the super pull after the last boss because, well, I wasn't taking remotely enough damage to feel threatened. I only played a little more cautiously because of the media tour interviewers suggesting dungeons were hitting harder. MrHappy's specifically mentioned this. Turns out... they didn't. By Qitana, I wall pulled everything I could, though I didn't do the super pulls since wasn't yet aware of them. Zero issue with any. In fact, the only hard experience I had is later on when my friend was leveling Astro, she couldn't heal through Living Dead because of how poorly balanced Astro's healing was at the time.

None of this is a flex, by the way. I don't intend to imply I'm some phenomenal tank because I don't believe I am. It's more to highlight just how easy all these dungeons actually are.

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Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

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Bro you... know it's a game, right?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Not really, a new rank jumping into Stone Vigil at min Ilevel is going to get destroyed if they get too cocky. Same with a lot of dungeons for newer players.



Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

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Even in stone single pulls are a waste of time. Off the top of my head cannot think of any dungeon where a single differs from a double pull in terms of handling.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Experience is the key thing though, you have it and with it confidence and even by your own admission it took you time to build it and thats fine, its normal. All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

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How often is that actually the case though? I don't buy this idea that people expect new players to operate like experienced players. Rather the expectation is for people to gradually improve over time. Even some harsh statements in this thread have certain thresholds of where that level of competency expectation kicks in. Yes there is a somewhat consistent expectation of players at a higher level, but that doesn't translate to sprouts or early content as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Even in stone single pulls are a waste of time. Off the top of my head cannot think of any dungeon where a single differs from a double pull in terms of handling.

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I would have to hard disagree. I've always classed that dungeon as a tank check. Sure the damage is a significant step up from Cutters Cry so healers don't get it easy but it's about what you pull, when and where that determines how well that dungeon goes. Even a well prepared player would still be using level 28 accessories in there and most new players will have a hodge podge of previous dungeon gear, meaning a generally low ilevel. Then they have to navigate environmental AoE, dangerous wandering mobs, mobs that spawn by surprise and hit really hard and overall quite a bit higher damage than they are used to. Many of these things will be new to a newer player and to top it off it's the first dungeon where you really should pull with provoke in certain circumstances. A sprout tank has a lot to cope with for a first run, so double pulling is almost certainly a bad idea. A team of vets? sure, but not learning sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

How often is that actually the case though? I don't buy this idea that people expect new players to operate like experienced players. Rather the expectation is for people to gradually improve over time. Even some harsh statements in this thread have certain thresholds of where that level of competency expectation kicks in. Yes there is a somewhat consistent expectation of players at a higher level, but that doesn't translate to sprouts or early content as a whole.

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In the actual game? not really, certainly not very often. It's places like forums and reddit that apply the pressure. My other reply in this post I think is a good example of why this narrative should tone it down a bit. We have a sprout explosion right now and playing DPS recently I've seen more Leroy tanks than ever before, they are getting bad advice from somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

In the actual game? not really, certainly not very often. It's places like forums and reddit that apply the pressure. My other reply in this post I think is a good example of why this narrative should tone it down a bit. We have a sprout explosion right now and playing DPS recently I've seen more Leroy tanks than ever before, they are getting bad advice from somewhere.

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How do you know they are getting "bad advice" and that's not just their natural instinct as a tank? A friend of mine is an ex wow player and naturally tries to tank like that for everything. It's their go to strategy and everything else is a back up plan.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

How do you know they are getting "bad advice" and that's not just their natural instinct as a tank? A friend of mine is an ex wow player and naturally tries to tank like that for everything. It's their go to strategy and everything else is a back up plan.

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Because by far the dominant narrative online is go big or go home. In game, it doesn't work like that, at least in the DF.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Because by far the dominant narrative online is go big or go home. In game, it doesn't work like that, at least in the DF.

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So are you assuming that because a lot of people have that mindset that they are being given bad advice? Is there something wrong with some people wanting to do that?

Hell. I don't like doing small pulls as a tank, never have. My default is go big or go home. Nobody told me to do that though. I just wanted to.

honestly, don't you people get tired of these strawmans? a tank that single pulls usually also has trouble keeping the aggro of these mobs because they don't AOE ever, which means DPS or even healers rip the aggro away from them and potentially leading to deaths or a wipe
a tank that single pulls isn't gonna make the run take 30 seconds longer like y'all love to use as an example in every thread as if it's some universal truth, it's usually 10-15 minutes longer than the average DF run
this is exactly the issue I mentioned earlier, heaven forbid someone dares to criticize someone in this community for their complete inability to play a role; you'll immediately get piled on by people who have to show just how virtuous they are in their defense of those poor, poor players who are somehow unable to play the most braindead classes in the entire game, people who probably don't realise just how much more toxic they are than the ones they passive aggressively 'dunk on' - or maybe they do and do it anyway because being toxic is fine to those that deserve it, right?