!! Fix Healer Rescue

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is why a toggle would work.

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Except it wouldn't.

Imagine you had a utility skill on your job. It can be really useful in some situations, but it takes a while to go off and the timing is wonky. As a result, to ensure it works you pretty much need to stop DPSing for a GCD or two. And when you do use it, you need to react fast because of that timing issue.

Now imagine that in addition, sometimes the skill just... doesn't work. You click the button and it makes the "whonk" error noise. But you never know when that'll happen! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, seemingly at the whim of the universe.

How often would you use that skill, versus just writing it off and continuing to DPS?

That toggle is "the seemingly random whim of the universe" in the scenario.

I can see both sides of the argument—and like I said, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise and to discuss if it's a good mechanic overall for fostering a less-hostile environment when it comes to people trolling with Rescue or Provoke/Shirk or whatever—but it's why I personally would just write Rescue off entirely and remove it from the bar.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

So I admit my preference would be to replace it rather than allow someone else to dictate whether or not an ability on my bar will function.

If it's how others want to go in proposing how things could be improved, though—by, in effect, allowing the party members to individually set restrictions on what can and can't be done in a given battle, so that the end result is something like the compromise between everyone's preferences/comfort zones—then despite my personal dislike I'm willing to go down that path and debate where the mechanic could be useful more generally.

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Rescue is a unique situation; no other abilities in this game are nearly as singularly intrusive. I don't think the solution to this problem would work well as a blanket solution to every problem, but if FFXIV does adopt this then it would warrant discussion.

World of Warcraft didn't expand this toggle solution to any other abilities, thereby acknowledging that Rescue poses a unique problem that requires a unique solution.

Regardless, I think we've found some common ground on changing the ability entirely. I could support that.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Except it wouldn't.

Imagine you had a utility skill on your job. It can be really useful in some situations, but it takes a while to go off and the timing is wonky. As a result, to ensure it works you pretty much need to stop DPSing for a GCD or two. And when you do use it, you need to react fast because of that timing issue.

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Just add an indicator to the nameplate/healthbar of everyone and you'll know just by looking at the person who's out of position that Rescue isn't an option. This issue would be easy to work around.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's debatable as to whether it's intrusive in the first place, since unlike World of Warcraft's version of the ability Rescue has limitations in place to prevent it being abused freely.

You can choose to only party with healers that you trust if you're so concerned about the ability being misused even with the limitations in mind. I'd also question you on one point - how often, in all honesty, do you see the ability being misused? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I do roulettes on a near daily basis and I have not seen the ability be misused.

I have, however, seen numerous uses of the ability preventing a death or even stopping an entire party from wiping. I've seen it used beneficially in both PvP and PvE content.

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I've only seen it used to troll a few times. Healers costing me a couple swings in Delirium on my DRK is a more frequent thing, probably because I almost never adjust for mechanics during Delirium; very few mechanics in roulettes are actually a threat to a DRK with TBN. I've never actually seen Rescue used to my benefit.

How often isn't the issue, though. Fact is that it's intrusive and allowing people to opt out would be a simple thing.

It's debatable as to whether it's intrusive in the first place, since unlike World of Warcraft's version of the ability Rescue has limitations in place to prevent it being abused freely.

You can choose to only party with healers that you trust if you're so concerned about the ability being misused even with the limitations in mind. I'd also question you on one point - how often, in all honesty, do you see the ability being misused? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I do roulettes on a near daily basis and I have not seen the ability be misused.

I have, however, seen numerous uses of the ability preventing a death or even stopping an entire party from wiping. I've seen it used beneficially in both PvP and PvE content.

It's tricky enough for AST in a party with another AST to glance at the party list to avoid overwriting other-AST's cards in the heat of battle, especially once you have a lot of buffs and debuffs on that bar. And with Rescue's wonky timing, given any scenario where you genuinely need Rescue, things are probably at a point where taking the time to find that "Don't Rescue Me" debuff amongst everything else probably means you've now taken too long for Rescue to work anyway.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

It's tricky enough for AST in a party with another AST to glance at the party list to avoid overwriting other-AST's cards in the heat of battle, especially once you have a lot of buffs and debuffs on that bar. And with Rescue's wonky timing, given any scenario where you genuinely need Rescue, things are probably at a point where taking the time to find that "Don't Rescue Me" debuff amongst everything else probably means you've now taken too long for Rescue to work anyway.

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If they removed or adjusted Rescue, I'd actually be less likely to bother healing. I feel more confident healing people when I know I have such an ability to lean on in an emergency.

It's also not the only ability that affects other players. There's the likes or provoke and shirk, which adjust enmity. Technically speaking, players could abuse such abilities as well - to steal or misdirect aggro during the heat of battle. Yet that doesn't mean they should be removed from the game, or disabled with a toggle since they're integral to surviving certain mechanics such as tank swaps.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I never said they did. People are suggesting I instruct the Healer on what situations he should/shouldn't use Rescue beforehand, which is something I'd have to do every roulette and something that could easily start a fight.

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Well, you could just get over it. That option is free and doesn't cost anyone anything. But you don't strike me as the type to just let go of small things.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If they removed or adjusted Rescue, I'd actually be less likely to bother healing. I feel more confident healing people when I know I have such an ability to lean on in an emergency.

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For once we agree on something. One thing I love about healing is making snap decisions to save someone. I've been thanked a number of times for it, so I'd really rather not have it be removed.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

It's tricky enough for AST in a party with another AST to glance at the party list to avoid overwriting other-AST's cards in the heat of battle, especially once you have a lot of buffs and debuffs on that bar. And with Rescue's wonky timing, given any scenario where you genuinely need Rescue, things are probably at a point where taking the time to find that "Don't Rescue Me" debuff amongst everything else probably means you've now taken too long for Rescue to work anyway.

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This so much, if healer have to check the person first to see if they got the disable rescue debuff/buff whatever ( in the middle of combat ) it would already be to late to use it.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

This so much, if healer have to check the person first to see if they got the disable rescue debuff/buff whatever ( in the middle of combat ) it would already be to late to use it.

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Indeed. It's like i said in my post earlier. You need to make a split second decision if you want to use Rescue or not. First, you need see the player, then select them and use the ability before the "damage" from the mechanic is being registered by the server. This usually happens within a few seconds. Add latency to that, and you end up trying to rescue someone (with good intentions) and the server still registers the target as being hit. So, if you would need to check of the target has that "don't rescue me" debuff, you would add to the "load" of that decision making process on the healer.

It's all fine and dandy that the target doesn't want to be rescued, like in the case where Goji1639 said:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm just not interested in any of that and don't want to have to think about it; so let people like me opt out.

Even if I make a mistake, I'd honestly rather take the hit and possibly die. I'd rather actually see the consequences of my mistakes; it helps me learn precisely the best way to deal with mechanics.

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That maybe true for a player like Goji1639, but not entirely "fair" for those who need to raise him because of it. Being pulled out of an AoE could also serve as a reminder that you were not in the right spot and learn from it.

The cost for raising someone is quite high, so you want to avoid it as much as possible. For example, i was in a Ridorana run last night as a RDM (i like to switch between WHM and RDM for the alliance raids) and i told the healers that i'll assist with raising party members. I ended up using Verraise 19 times in 1 run, which is a whopping 45,600 MP. So, it's safe to say that i was running on fumes during a few of those fights, even with Lucid Dreaming.

There are cases (i've experienced a few of them myself) where those 19 deaths all came from 1 specific party member. In that case, the player didn't really learn from his/her mistakes. Could it be prevented with Rescue? Not entirely, no. But, it would've helped nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

That maybe true for a player like Goji1639, but not entirely "fair" for those who need to raise him because of it. Being pulled out of an AoE could also serve as a reminder that you were not in the right spot and learn from it.

The cost for raising someone is quite high, so you want to avoid it as much as possible. For example, i was in a Ridorana run last night as a RDM (i like to switch between WHM and RDM for the alliance raids) and i told the healers that i'll assist with raising party members. I ended up using Verraise 19 times in 1 run, which is a whopping 45,600 MP. So, it's safe to say that i was running on fumes during a few of those fights, even with Lucid Dreaming.

There are cases (i've experienced a few of them myself) where those 19 deaths all came from 1 specific party member. In that case, the player didn't really learn from his/her mistakes. Could it be prevented with Rescue? Not entirely, no. But, it would've helped nonetheless.

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So don't revive me if you can't afford to. There's very little content in this game where being 1 DPS down matters at all. The only way to make things engaging most of the time is to challenge yourself to optimize, and in that regard the Healer is the only enemy in the instance I can't predict.

I've leveled 2 Healers and have never once actually needed Rescue for anything. All of this pretending it's some great clutch ability that "OMG How would we function without it!" is just kind of petty. Like when a kid has a toy he doesn't even like and rarely ever plays with, but if you try to take that toy away it's suddenly the most important thing in his life and he'd rather die than part with it. Rescue with a toggle would be pretty much the same level of useless as Rescue without it. The ability was never good, but at least with a toggle it's not a constant potential nuisance.

Reviving people is very important in some cases, especially if there's tether and stack mechanics in play.