The toxicity starting to happen.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No, the point is for the party to clear the dungeon. Considering we're given 90 minutes to complete most instances, getting through fast is not the point. If SE's point was for players to clear dungeons as quickly as possible, they'd cut the timer down to 30 minutes to add the time pressure element.

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SE doesn't decide these things, players do. Most people would bail so fast on a run that even looked like it might take 90 minutes that that sort of play would never be tolerated.

Heck, even the duty abandon penalty doesn't function any longer if dungeons are taking 90 minutes - it's only a 30 minute penalty. It would be infinitely more efficent to abandon such a group of players. Not only would you likely complete your next run of that instance/roulette faster even with the 30 minute penalty applied (because I cant think of a dungeon that even takes 30 minutes without huge mistakes) but you also have 30 minutes to craft or otherwise make use of your time.

So no, the 90 minute time limit means nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

It's really baffling for me as to why people can't just be respectful and nice to each other, instead of being the king of the instance and trying to decide everything. And why people can't stop rushing for one minute and just enjoy their time.

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I really dont get how someone can advocate for politeness while also admitting to wanting to waste other people's time. Nothing more rude and entitled to thinking that your time is worth more than other people's.

The one thing we can all agree to respect is each other's time.

It's funny I never had anyone pulling ahead of me as a tank, because there's only a wall ahead, every single time. :)

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Originally Posted by Legion88

The faster you pull the faster you clear the faster you can do other stuff then kill mindless trash and bosses, like explore the dungeon without fear of enemies, do other content, play another game or just start over again with killing mindless trash and bosses.
You want to reduce the mandatory, tediouse or/and boring stuff to get to the good stuff you actually want to do.

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Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.
And again, if people want to try to make the run faster - just ask the tank. No need to pull ahead of them.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I really dont get how someone can advocate for politeness while also admitting to wanting to waste other people's time. Nothing more rude and entitled to thinking that your time is worth more than other people's.

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Oh yes because pulling a little less will make us waste a few minutes, the horror.
I consider my time to worth more? People that rush so much they are pulling ahead of the tank have their time worth so much that they want to risk a wipe and silently force the tank to pull more to save an extra minute of their precious time.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Could not disagree more. Nobody is ever going to improve if they go through life with everybody catering to their inadequacies. The weakest link needs to be pushed to their limit more than anyone else so they can learn how to play properly.

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Certain "inadequacies" are irrelevant or not an inadequacy at all. Not wanting to mass pull a dungeon is one such case.

There seems to be some wierd arguments here.

For starters, if SE allows for something, it is not the same as it being ideal or what SE would like you to do. What I mean by this is SE allows you to spend 90 minutes in a dungeon before it fails you, but this doesnt mean SE's intentions is for you to meander through a dungeon and spend the full 90 minutes doing it. As an example to this point, you can participate in an event at Gold Saucer and immediately fail out and get a pittance of MGP for participation, but the goal isnt to fail out, its to complete it and maximize your reward in an efficient way. How that relates back to dungeon is they want you to progress through that dungeon in an efficient and expedient manner. This will vary from group to group.

Second, parties are not controlled by any one person. Theyre a group effort. The speed of which your party progresses is dependent on everyone involved. You have crappy DPS, youre not gonna be progging that fast. You have an ungeared tank, youre not progging fast. Bad healer, not progging fast. Its a give and take where you have to take into consideration your party as well as your own. This means that there is no 'concrete' method on dungeons. If you go into a dungeon and refuse to big pull as a tank when your healers and dps insist on it when broadly you have the level, abilities (like actual class abilities) and gear, you are in the wrong. You are refusing to play to meet with the party's request. And the excuse of "Well Im not used to tank," does not fly if you are in end game content or have reached max level. You are expected to have a basic understanding and mastery of your role, which means properly using mitigation in conjunction with healers and DPS. If you do not have the confidence in fulfilling the role, practice it or play a different role. Expecting others to cater to your inexperience and refusal to improve is not polite nor correct.

Conversely, people have to temper their expectations to be realistic. Telling a sprout to mass pull when theyre wearing vendor trash and it's their first class isnt reasonable either. Having the understanding that newer players may not be comfortable or geared for a role means you should expect that you might not move as fast as you would with someone whos broadly mastered the role. You need to understand where your party members stand at and work with them to complete content as efficiently as possible.

Lastly, you are not being polite by doing things on 'easy mode' intentionally with no consideration to others, nor is it polite to go super ham without a moment's thought. If you go into a dungeon and specifically single pull cause you want to be polite to your fellow party members, youre being patronizing by assuming that your fellow party members are not capable of more expedient methods. You want to know if you should big pull or not? Talk with your party, inspect their gear and what classes they have unlocked and leveled, do a test pull and adjust as necessary. Again, this is a party effort and you need to work with your party on this. Doing the 'small pull' thing because "Big pulls are rude/unnecessary and hurts my teammates" or the "What if theyre 'new/crappy/uncertain/etc" where you make an assumption about the inadequacy of your fellow party members isnt being polite. Talk with your party members and figure it out. If people want big pulls, pull big. If they want small, pull small. Figure it out.

Cut people slack if theyre new to a role or undergeared. And be stern with people who have 3 lvl 80 tanks with ilvl 490 gear who try to use the excuse "Im not comfortable with pulling big as a tank.". And this applies to all roles. takl wtih people, figure it out, and stop behaving like "This is the only way to do things." Your goal is to complete the dungeon in an expedient and timely manner. Sometimes that means small pulls. Sometimes that means wall to wall pulls. It depends on your party, so learn to adapt to your party's needs.

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I think a tank learning to pull large who failed shouldn't be told to slow down.
They should try again, so they can learn their cooldown rotations and how to better manage the mob pack all while avoiding AOEs and stuff.

Telling people to dial it back after one single wipe doesn't help teach anyone anything.

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After enough tanks like this where they keep trying and keep dying, after a certain point I'd rather they just "learn" on their own time, or at least someone's time that isn't my own. I'm there to complete a dungeon, not to watch you repeatedly try to be a badass and fail -- and actually make the dungeon slower than it would have been if you had just swallowed your pride and pulled more within your means.

Also, the tank dying is not always solely the tank's fault. In fact, I'd say it's more often due to the healer getting too overzealous with attacking.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

There seems to be some wierd arguments here.

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You made big amount of text for nothing. Look at people in that thread - they create 100 and 1 reason, why big pull is MUHBADMUHFEEELINGS. They even don't listen to words. Example up ahead -

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Oh yes because pulling a little less will make us waste a few minutes, the horror.

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yes, horror, people want save as many minutes as possible. And nobody wanna spent time only because 1 lazy tank

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.
And again, if people want to try to make the run faster - just ask the tank. No need to pull ahead of them.

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You see, the problem is that a tank and a healer as a duo are mostly unkillable by every trash you can pull between walls, there are some exceptions in the regions below 50 but you can at least pull multiple groups there, you just have to be slightly competent in your job and you are not allowed to be lazy, the horror.

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.

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To be honest, I had a run of Dun Scaith last night with a high number of first-timers that was sort of a perfect example of the "if you rush, you can make it take longer" scenario.

As you might imagine with a whole pile of newcomers, Deathgaze Hollow was a bit of an adventure, with many people dying to Doom, flying off the edges, etc. When the inevitable wipe came, some of the new folks asked what the mechanics were. A few of us started to try to explain, but a particularly impatient Red Mage pulled the boss and, well, off we went. We managed to limp through that fight (just barely).

That set the tone for the rest of the run. We'd reach a boss, the first timers would ask "Hey, is there anything we should know about this?" and as several of us started to explain the mechanics, someone else would dash in and start the fight, so we'd be off and running without a chance to explain. (And sometimes with a bonus snarky comment of "Figure it out for yourself, or get out of the way." or "If you didn't learn this years ago, why bother now? I just want to go through this as quickly as possible.")

So new folks trying to help ran around changing the color of the circles on the ground, people died to the tethered/untethered atomos adds, people got hit by debuffs for not stopping movement, people got whapped by Scathach's scarf-wing-things, etc.

And because the first-timers didn't get their questions answered, each fight turned into a field of death and mishandled mechanics. We didn't wipe again, though that was due to a handful of experienced folks dragging the party across the finish line as best we could. In the end, the combat log in FFXIV's logs directory says the entire run took about an hour (well, 50 minutes and change) and involved 115 deaths (though some of those were the wipe to Deathgaze Hollow) and 84 rezzes, which was way more time than I had expected to spend on an Alliance roulette.

I'm all in favor of big pulls—I die a little inside whenever the final section of Anamnesis Anyder isn't pulled in one giant angry mob—but I do think there are times when rushing rather than communication makes everything take longer rather than go faster.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Also, the tank dying is not always solely the tank's fault. In fact, I'd say it's more often due to the healer getting too overzealous with attacking.

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Eh, I dunno that it's really easy to say any one cause is the most common.

I've certainly seen healers get tunnel vision on being green DPS (MOAR GLARE! BLOOD LILY!), yes. I've also seen tanks fail to use mitigations and have their health just evaporate faster than a healer can account for. I've seen tanks and healers be on the ball, but DPS just be so slow that the mobs stay up too long, and the tank and healer run out of options to use. These are especially prevalent in early dungeons.

Heck, I've seen a tank or healer lag out and the whole thing fall apart as a result, which seems pertinent since there seems to have been a significant spike in random 90k and pokeball issues since 5.3 landed. (I've tanked an add during Engels in Copied Factory as a healer twice for this exact reason while helping FC members get Manufactured Coins, when Comcast decided to banish a tank into the Void of No Connectivity and they yeeted out of existence abruptly.)

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

For starters, if SE allows for something, it is not the same as it being ideal or what SE would like you to do. What I mean by this is SE allows you to spend 90 minutes in a dungeon before it fails you, but this doesnt mean SE's intentions is for you to meander through a dungeon and spend the full 90 minutes doing it.

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Who is this being directed to? Is there anyone asking to take the full 90 minutes to clear a dungeon? There is a middle ground between rushing and intentionally being slow. Even doing single pulls while intentionally finding and killing all enemies (including those in out-of-the-way places in some ARR dungeons) should not take 90 minutes.

I recently (in the past two or three months) joined an in-progress Aurum Vale run while they were still in the first room, and I think they had a wipe as they were resurrecting at the beginning and they really took their time, as in actually stop and do nothing for several minutes like every few steps. I wasn't in a hurry at the time, so I didn't say anything and just watched YouTube on my second monitor, but normally, I would speak out and ask if there's anything wrong, especially since I didn't see any new player bonus and all 3 had level 80 jobs.

And that run, slow as it was, still didn't take anywhere near 90 minutes. And again, that's not the type of run that anyone should be advocating for, and I would be concerned if there is a push for that kind of run. But I didn't think that's what people are discussing here, though I haven't been reading all the posts.