We're all DDs now >.>

As long as the party isn't dying I don't care what the healers do. As long as the tank is holding aggro and keeping the mob standing still as much as possible, I don't care what they do. IMO, the "healers and tanks NEED, key word need, to dps" mentality spawns from the raid community and spreads to every other part of the community. Since raiders are trying to clear everything as quick as possible and being unwilling to wait to get better gear to get better dps from their dps, they make the healers and tanks try to dps as much as possible as well. This mentality spreads to the rest of the community in much the same way the "PLDs and MNKs are useless and should be deleted from the game" mentality spread.

Some people don't care about speed running everything in the game. They come home from a long day at work and log in looking to relax and maybe get a few things done before time for bed. This is a video game, not a job or a competitive sport. People don't need to always operate at 110% in every aspect of this game, raiding / pvp excluded, maybe.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Let's be real here for a second, when you have 6 tanks, 6 heals, and 12 Dps... if those 6 heals only heal, its going to be less of a dps loss compared to when those 12 Dps just do jack shit.
And, if you do any 24p content today - guess who is doing less of a job.
Sure thing, the healer's dps would be good to finish the encounters faster, but the dps-players actually trying to hand out dps would increase the speed way more.

Also, you not minding a wipe because tanks / heals tried handing out dps? I believe you. But what do you think how the other 22 people think about that. The rage and blame after a wipe at the sphere in the city of tears is insane.

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You don't practice stance dancing in 24-man raids though. I first got the hang of dropping Grit while main tanking through dungeons and normal mode trials. Likewise, I didn't start off the aggressive healer I am now. As for the rest, why is the comparison DPS not well, DPSing when the point made was no one, regardless of their role, should be entirely stationary? Even small contributions from an Aero III or an Combust II how and again is something. I just cannot understand how one role can literally do nothing and people defend it. This has nothing to do with kicking or whatnot, just the idea itself. That standard isn't exclusive to healers either. Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Everybody should play their best.

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Well this game is heavily geared towards casuals and casuals usually just want to log on have some fun and not be judged how well they playing. There are times they they do strive for the best but not going to be all the time like some people want.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You don't practice stance dancing in 24-man raids though. I first got the hang of dropping Grit while main tanking through dungeons and normal mode trials. Likewise, I didn't start off the aggressive healer I am now. As for the rest, why is the comparison DPS not well, DPSing when the point made was no one, regardless of their role, should be entirely stationary. Even small contributions from an Aero III or an Combust II how and again is something. I just cannot understand how one role can literally do nothing and people defend it. This has nothing to do with kicking or whatnot, just the idea itself. That standard isn't exclusive to healers either. Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

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I'm really not sure when you got the idea that i am defending people to only stick to one role.

I agree with nearly everthing you say.

You pass the content early on with low ilvl and people sticking to their role, and as time goes by you gain more ilvl and get more powerfull.
This usually turns dps into lazy fucks and tanks/heals into "have to dps or they are not playing their char correctly" players.

Again, point was simply this: If everyone keeps doing their initial job (tanks tanking, heals healing, dps dps-ing) you will allready finish dungeons and raids faster because of higher ilvl.
If now the Tanks and healers increase the dps by stance dancing, its a welcome extra. But, for everything besides 8p content it should never be mandatory.

Regarding Dps players and why its bad to call out dps players for bad damage: Its prohibited. Its discriminating, its bad. I remember some interview 2 years ago where they talked about it. Thats why parsing is banned, no?
BUT since you can literally see when a tank or heal stance dances (or doesnt) you can easily tell if he tried to maximize dps or not. And since you don't need parser for that, its okay. I mean, you only call him out for stance dancing, and not for having bad dps, so its not banned, right?

Please understand that i am totally on your side, up to a certain extent. 8p content shouldn't be counted in, because usually static etc. Everything else should of course be played as good as you can. HOWEVER since dps players (usually) tend to get lazy, because easy content, no need to avoid aoe balblablub the focus always lies on tanks and heals.

Yes, all roles should be played as good as you can. Yes, stance dancing can be helpfull in increasing your effincy. No, no tank or heal should be ever kicked for not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

But, while dps classes tend to not put the same amount of effort into it as at release, tanks and heals are now blamed for not "doing their best".

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Speculation.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Speculation.

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Exactly. Since we have no way of proving (we are not allowed to measure dps) we blame the ones we can blame, since we can observe them -> Tanks and Heals.

Also, since you call it Speculation: Join any 24p raid of your likings as heal and observe the Dps-Classes. Auto hit dragoon, Fire Fire Ice Fire Fire Ice Blm, [...]

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

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While I agree that everyone should be trying their best to contribute, this concept doesn't even work in real life yet alone online games and is overall naive. "best" is subjective anyway, to some healers keeping people at full health, no party member deaths, keeping up a large mp pool for emergencies, etc... is what they think is "best" and that means being ready to heal at any given moment which may include standing around waiting for that moment. They don't even include DPS into their thought process for "best" as a healer or tank. This in large part just doesn't work for dungeon content which is where we see most of the clashing about cause dungeons are... well just too easy to even worry about those kinds of things.

Hope you don't think I'm attacking you cause I'm not. I've just come to accept things as they are I guess...

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Exactly. Since we have no way of proving (we are not allowed to measure dps) we blame the ones we can blame, since we can observe them -> Tanks and Heals.[...]

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Speak for yourself. My impression of wipes in 24-mans and over the course of 130+ Zurvan Ex kills on top of all the "failed-soar-let's-disband" parties is that DPS are blamed for failing DPS checks far more often than tanks and healers are. Personally, I try not to point blame without evidence either way.

It is true though that in high level parties healer/tank dps is the easiest reserve to tap into because the assumption is that all DPS are already performing at 100% output while tanks and healers might be keeping a safety margin, sometimes for good reasons. You can't tell DPS to push harder when they're already at max, but you can push healers and tanks to reduce safety margin and increase output, assuming it's not already maxed, and it rarely is if we're not talking about speed kills.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip

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That's..not the conjurer story..don't take a screenshot out of context and use that to try to turn the story into something else lol

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

That's..not the conjurer story..don't take a screenshot out of context and use that to try to turn the story into something else lol

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Kind of hard when it's the only scrap of evidence that supports their claim, even if it's provably false and misrepresentation of the story line.