Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

1000postlimit

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How is it any different? When you make a statement, you make words to back up the statement.

I thought watching Netflix while healing trivial content was normal...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

How is it any different? When you make a statement, you make words to back up the statement.

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How is what different? When you quote, please just quote properly. You are shortening the quote already, it doesn't take a life time to leave in the parts you want to quote.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I've had exactly 3 people ask in the last 3 months. So it's more correct than incorrect.

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In your experience, maybe. I ask all the time. I run into people that ask pretty frequently, too.

It's a pretty subjective observation.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's. SMN pets do however, their pets do not show up in the party list, so it's up to the SMN to heal their own pet if it's getting wrecked.

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Healing requirements are only greater for melee if they stand in cleaves and aoe's, which admittedly they have more opportunity to do. If they dodge like they should be, there's no difference whatsoever. Any DPS that routinely refuses to dodge AoE's because "mah deeps" is basically a mana sponge that deserves to hit the floor.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

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Yeah, but who ever mentioned DPS having to heal because healers aren't? I said something about popping Second Wind if you DO happen to get hit, which is off the GCD and doesn't take away from your DPS in any way. In any case, putting up some DPS and still keeping up the heals isn't all that hard to do so I don't see what the issue with healers DPS'ing is.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If there is a lull in combat where no damage is being taken (see several phases of ST in CT) then obviously the healers and tanks have opportunity to DPS, even though their input is not needed and not required. If they are needed to add DPS, then the DPS themselves are weak. In a 24 person Raid like ST and WoD, where there are 15 DPS... means multiple DPS aren't carrying their weight.

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Honestly, I don't care if my input is "not needed and not required". If I'm not tanking or healing, I'm DPS'ing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear? Were they all using their DPS stance? The healing requirements go past the point of being able to save the situation when you also have Healers who only jumped into the Healer queue for the fast queue and only want to DPS too. Fortunately that exact scenario has happened only once in my experience.

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Even if the tank is wearing DPS gear, who cares? It's freaking WoD. You don't need 10k+ hps to tank it. I don't normally go in there to MT myself; I prefer to make sure adds are picked up. If we just stand there staring at each other before the boss with all 3 tanks shuffling their feet, I'll just shrug and pull and pray the other tanks know how to OT. When I queue on Scholar, I rarely leave Cleric Stance even when my alliance's tank is MT. I'd rather put up some unneeded DPS than spam some unneeded heals. Overhealing is basically a waste of time; I mayaswell do the Manderville and go afk.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select. Don't expect to be carried, or for the other tanks/healers to do your job for you. It's insane enough when you run ST or WoD and only one Tank came prepared. Players wearing crafting gear or some ilevel 55 gear parts in ilevel 90 content ... seriously why?

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Eh. i55 gear is one thing, that may be someone new that's gearing up and if RNGesus is being unkind to them with the pieces that they're able to replace, there's not a whole lot they can do about that until they grind enough tomes. Crafting gear I agree with you on, though. I usually take it upon myself to say something to people that are in crafting gear; if they refuse to change it, I initiate a kick. If you aren't going to wear gear that's even got relevant stats, you can gtfo.

Tank/healer DPS is never required unless you're doing world first progression raiding.

It does, however, speed up the dungeon/boss fight/trash/etc.

Your overall goal as a healer is to keep the party alive and healthy for as long as whatever you're fighting stays alive. The quicker that thing dies, the less you have to heal. You don't need to keep the tank (or the party's) HP at full 100% of the time, especially not in dungeons where 99% of the damage is predictable and extremely non-lethal.

You have very little reason not to be in Cleric. Healers can put out substantial DPS and it really does go a long way in pushing phases or just making the boss die quicker if it's tank and spank.

I'll repeat, though: It's not essential. You can do all non-fresh raid content without ever touching Cleric stance. But if you'd like to speed up everything for the good of the group, then that would be a fantastic thing to do.

Also I've never seen a DPS heal in my entire time playing this game, though I know BLM and SMN have access to a really small Physic heal. I dunno if this is supposed to be an argument in support of not using Cleric, though, so if it is: the purpose of healer DPS is to increase raid DPS. A healer will not output larger personal DPS than an actual DPS class, so if your options are to either cast a damaging spell or cast a heal when someone actually needs one, obviously healing takes priority. Your main job is to heal but you have the option to DPS when you don't need to heal. A cardinal rule of mage classes is ABC (Always Be Casting), which means if you're not pressing anything for an extended period of time and no tank busters are about to come out, you should be in Cleric dealing damage. You don't have to, but you should be if you want to be a team player.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If you can't take the fire get out of the heat. Tanking isn't for everyone and its not meant to be an easy role. You are expected to adapt quickly if your new and learn the zone quickly and watch the bosses and learn strategies quicker then everyone else, be better geared then everyone else and hold aggro even if you don't have good weapons like everyone else. No ifs-ands-or-butts.

This is how its been like since early everquest. It has been like this for almost two generations.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Your response would be great in a competitive game. But not in a co-operative setup like the DF---although many seem to have the need to show who's got the bigger body part in everything they do. As I said before, you are not solving the problem. You are not helping at all by discouraging people, telling them quit tanking.
The problem is real and is a fact: we need more tanks in the DF. And when you brush off people who are trying to learn tanking by applying the utmost highest standard on them right from the beginning, you are raising the barrier to entry.
You cannot expect a fresh rookie in boot camp to function properly under live fire. That's why some armies used to send rookies crawling through a field with live machine-gun fire scissoring across over their heads over a 500m crawl. In the army we could do that can call it a day. In a co-operative game, we need to actually support them.
Or if you don't feel the problem of lack of tanks, then you probably shouldn't be trying to stop others from providing the support.
Don't add to the problem. If you are just going to make the problem worse, you might as well not say anything.
EverQuest was a different game, in a different time. Or maybe you'd like to revive slavery as well?

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Everything. That. Is. Being. Complained. About. Is. Part. Of. The. Thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-myth-thoughts

Page one to now.

The issues i've said, are issues that have been in the game for the last two generations. There is no difference, the tank stigma has been around since then and always will be.

Tanks will have higher standards, if you can't get over that then don't play one.

It is human nature for a person to hold a higher standard for a leader.

I find thia weird because i duty finder for everything? Might have a dps with me most of the time my fiancee also heals though. Ive pugged up to ramuh and t5... i124 warrior. I usually do a hard mode and an expert a few times a week plus tons of crap for relic. If people are new i ask if they want a full clear and groups usually go for it. If they want a speedrun i speedrun. Teaching noobs can be painful and hilarious. I havent had to leave a group for being dicks yet, usually you die one then someone explains mechanics to you like you are five. Which is ok :) Try to make the game fun guys haha

What are we arguing about?
Which class are the most miserable in the game?

Or its just about that player who can't handle it properly and blame others?

TL;DR:

Shortage of tanks, myth? Tanks are everywhere!
Oh it's just the DF that's short of tanks.
But why?
Well people don't like the pressure and the heat.
We should encourage newbie tanks instead of asking them to perform like vets from the beginning.
Hey if you can't take the heat, don't try be a tank.
You're adding to the problem, not contributing to a solution.
So what? Tanks have always been leaders, if you can't be one, don't tank.


Basically this.

And my reply is the same: we're trying to find more tanks. Hope you realize you're barking up the wrong tree by insisting that tanks should be an exclusive uniform breed of players?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If you can't take the fire get out of the heat. Tanking isn't for everyone and its not meant to be an easy role. You are expected to adapt quickly if your new and learn the zone quickly and watch the bosses and learn strategies quicker then everyone else, be better geared then everyone else and hold aggro even if you don't have good weapons like everyone else. No ifs-ands-or-butts.

This is how its been like since early everquest. It has been like this for almost two generations.

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I don't have any issues tanking, I'd say I'm a pretty good tank. I never lose aggro (never have, in fact I can keep aggro off a bis 130 drg with zeta wep doing 900+ dps burst while I have a 110) and my CDs are up on time for every tank buster. I do more dps than some DPS I've seen bitch at me do. The issue I have is how many ignorant people think they know how to tank better. It's pretty clear you feel that you know more than everyone else. The role is absolutely easy as you have LESS to actually manage than other people do. It's just a matter of ignorance surrounding the job and role that seriously gets on my nerves.

Like I said a few pages back, one of the tanks in my static (who have savage clears) was kicked from an WPHM for being in sword oath. The reason tanks don't DF is because of nonsensical shit like that. Not because of being berated for being new. Most people in this game are actually fairly kind to new players.

EDIT: I'd like to add that this attitude is why people thing 150 dps on a tank is acceptable. It really isn't. Tanks are capable of 400+ even without echo.