SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

Akiza wants SMN to play like end-game Spiritmaster

Video proof

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Simply commanding a pet to do things and nothing more would be the most boring gameplay that I can imagine.

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That's exactly the gameplay we have right now for the majority of encounters in this game. After we command it, we play warlock and go DoT rotation time.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

That's exactly the gameplay we have right now for the majority of encounters in this game. After we command it, we play warlock and go DoT rotation time.

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What was meant was by playing a class that effectively ONLY relies on the pet means that the character just stands there, doing nothing, simply managing all the pet's attacks and abilities. Either the character has to disappear, or become immune to attacks, or the pet has to take on an absurd amount of HP and take the damage for the Summoner.

I keep hearing that the class should be all about buffing the Egi, and letting the Egi do all the work...so you have to manage the Egi's HP extensively at the cost of your own, and then if the Egi dies, you have no method of protecting yourself.

I think I'm missing the part where playing a Summoner means being half-capable.

My point dames and gentle-fops: the class is called a Summoner, not a Shapeshifter, not a Synthesist, not an Animist. You cut your teeth on the ways of transmuting aether as an Arcanist, even going so far as to summon a lesser being from crystal to serve as your ally. But Arcanists, Summoners, and even Scholars have to employ magicks of their own, because no self-respecting tactician would dare hedge all their bets on a single card. You buff your partner, command its actions, and if it falls you slap a Bind on your enemies and call the blighter back to action.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

...But Arcanists, Summoners, and even Scholars have to employ magicks of their own, because no self-respecting tactician would dare hedge all their bets on a single card...

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That's why they've given us a hand of cards (e.g. Ifrit, Garuda, Titan) with more to come in the future (Ramuh, Leviathan, etc.). Furthermore, during the recent Niconico Choukaigi event, they mentioned that the Egi will be readjusted in light of the fact that more Egi will be added in the future.

Case in point: Although the Summoner does employ magicks of its own, its role is to summon, hence the job title Summoner. If you're going to give a Summoner five or six different entities to summon, but only one of them is useful, the design is flawed and needs to be reevaluated. I'm glad the developers will be making changes in the future. I just pray the changes they make are good ones.

I hope they make good changes as well and not just buff Egis damage.

Aion Spirit Master is still the best pet class in MMO's. The pet changes physically depending on the players level and you can equip a variety of skills on your pet.

I have a SCH and I love it, but I won't touch SMN. Rolled a BLM instead. I think overall the whole SMN job is not very interesting. They should have made ACN more about DoTs (essentially staying what it is now), then made SMN more about pets and SCH more about heals (which it's a perfectly fine healer already). SE really fudged up in terms of SMN imo. They are re-working the class soon so hopefully it will be made to be more about pet dps rather than DoTs (again this should be an ACN's duty). In the end I'm not even going to play SMN until they re-balance/fix this job. I'm happy having my SCH and I'm happy with the BLM mechanics (even though they could use some tweaking as well)... Sadly SMN is just a dust collector in my job closet...

Some ideas to make pets more interesting (bare in mind that I haven't even touched SMN so I apalogize if I say something that is already there):
Ifrit-
Give him an ability to boost skill speed (much like SCH fairy)
Give him higher resistance to all type of dmg
Make his stun stronger or delete it

Titan-
Make it so he can help mitigate group damage better
This could be in the form of his own version of protect (that IS stackable with Protect) or by giving him a blinding ability

Garuda-
She is supposedly just fine that way she is from what people are saying...
BUT if they were to change her they could make it so she is more centered around boosting your caster dps more
since she is long ranged

Regardless of whether or not people agree with what I've listed the point in this matter is that they should make it so you are using your summons during fights. Instead of just summoning once and that's it until it dies why not go for something that would encourage summoners to be more diversified in deploying their summons to grant the team as a whole an easier battle. That way not only will summoners be bringing good dps to the table but also vast utilities that can ensure a smooth fight even during group hiccups. In my book that would redeem summoners and make me more inclined to roll/play one later down the line.

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Originally Posted by Ventus

I really hate to be "that guy" but summoner feels like an SE dev was watching tons of warlock videos from World of Warcraft and said "screw it, let's do one of those thingies" instead of making a summoner class mostly about the power of the SUMMON.

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They tried a Summoner class mostly about the power of the summon in FFXI. It became half-level main healer with a giant mana pool.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Aion Spirit Master is still the best pet class in MMO's. The pet changes physically depending on the players level and you can equip a variety of skills on your pet.

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I actually think CoX's Mastermind (Think that was the name of the class) was the best pet class in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I actually think CoX's Mastermind (Think that was the name of the class) was the best pet class in an MMO.

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Although I don't think a Mastermind style class would work in FF14, this times infinity.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

They tried a Summoner class mostly about the power of the summon in FFXI. It became half-level main healer with a giant mana pool.

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Not because of the design concept, but because of the number tunings and balance. It could've worked perfectly fine - however, many things held it back:

-All the attacks being categorized into one LONG cooldown (Blood Pact: Rage)
-Low damage numbers, often lower than a BLM nuke
-High miss rates + low damage + giving TP to the mob on swing made it a BAD thing for the pet to hit mobs

They've done a lot of things recently to try to fix it (upped physical damage of avatars, lowered blood pact cooldowns, etc), but yes, it still has some core design flaws. There's nothing wrong with taking a good concept and polishing it up/fixing it/learning from mistakes.

Summoner needed to be rebalanced since October of last year but it got nerfed instead. The Summoner branching off of the Arcanist and getting dots were fine Square seemed to forget that the equip job would be a Summoner not a dot master. Fester and Tridisater should have been on the Arcanist and the Summoner should have gotten more pet buffs and spell commands also it should have been more on pet mechanics.

Add Summoner spells that commands the pet to cause aoe elemental damage and weather affects.

To be honest. I want PROCs.
I think we are probably the only Job without any PROCs?
Even Scholar gets a free Succor with Sacred Soil.

I would maim for a free Aetherflow Proc or a free Fester.

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but it got nerfed instead.

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It needed a nerf. We're still the highest DPS right now even after the nerf. Again, this thread isn't really about our DPS.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner needed to be rebalanced since October of last year but it got nerfed instead. The Summoner branching off of the Arcanist and getting dots were fine Square seemed to forget that the equip job would be a Summoner not a dot master. Fester and Tridisater should have been on the Arcanist and the Summoner should have gotten more pet buffs and spell commands also it should have been more on pet mechanics.

Add Summoner spells that commands the pet to cause aoe elemental damage and weather affects.

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I understand your desire for a "true" pet class that focuses virtually entirely on the pet, but that's not what Summoner or Scholar or Arcanist are, nor does it feel like that was the intention.

Remember, the advanced jobs are augmentations of the base job, not entirely new jobs. Arcanist is about a scientific approach to magic, utilizing equations, geometry, etc. It's highly systematic. The current incarnation of Summoner is a natural progression from that in the goal of increasing one's power, analyzing and utilizing aetheric flow to draw upon the might of beings powered, even created, entirely by aether, which your original carbuncles are merely a small attempt at. The Egis represent using that power to augment your homunculi, while the other spells/abilities, such as Fester, represent applying that power to your other equations.

In many ways, Scholar is less of a logical progression for Arcanist because you obtain a fairy rather than fabricating it the way you do your carbuncles. The Fairy is more of a familiar than an homunculus.

Yes, this is all tying into the lore, but the lore is the explanation of how the progression occurs in the first place. Yes, it's not the "pure pet class" you may desire, but that does not mean that the class requires a complete overhaul just to match what -you- want.

As for a simple balance statement, while I can see -some- logic in giving Fester to Arcanist instead of making it a Summoner-only ability, that would give the ability to Scholar, and Scholar has no need of that ability, nor any reason to have that ability (making wounds/poisons/etc. Fester seems rather counter-intuitive for a healer). And like I said before, the ability represents a Summoner using the power of primals to augment what she could already do.

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Originally Posted by Euphe

They should have made ACN more about DoTs (essentially staying what it is now), then made SMN more about pets and SCH more about heals (which it's a perfectly fine healer already).

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And how can they manage that when Summoner builds off of Arcanist and gets all of 5 new abilities (7 if you wanna be picky and count the reskinned summons)? Frankly it's a miracle they managed to make Scholar as effective a healer as it is, drawing off a DPS class. I also really see no reason to dramatically alter a job when it and the base class share the same role. I think Summoner as it is currently is well tuned and pretty effective. Not my cup of tea (but DPS in general isn't) but absolutely a good job that needs minor tweaks to the actual egi to solve the majority of its issues.

Summoner isn't too bad as it is now, my hope is that when they adjust the egi's ifrit get a big damage increase folloew by changing his shield to a group ability. I hope they revamp titan to change his stun ability to a voke type ability so we actually could use it as a tank would be really nice.

Monks are better.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Add Summoner spells that commands the pet to cause aoe elemental damage and weather affects.

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Ok...I'll bite...what POSSIBLE benefit could you glean from causing a localized storm? Or in Titan's case, rubble?

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

Ok...I'll bite...what POSSIBLE benefit could you glean from causing a localized storm? Or in Titan's case, rubble?

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I'm going to take an educated guess based on previous posts.


"Because IIII want to be a special snowflake and when IIII enter a zone IIII want people to know about it! Because IIII wasn't hugged enough as a child!"

And so on.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

Ok...I'll bite...what POSSIBLE benefit could you glean from causing a localized storm? Or in Titan's case, rubble?

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Ifrit- cause wildfires that causes proc damage and burning to all enemies in the local area.
Titan- rubble causes proc damage and heavy to all enemies in the local area
Garuda- summons twisters that proc damage and apply wind burn to all enemies in the local area

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Ifrit- cause wildfires that causes proc damage and burning to all enemies in the local area.
Titan- rubble causes proc damage and heavy to all enemies in the local area
Garuda- summons twisters that proc damage and apply wind burn to all enemies in the local area

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You've basically just described the enkindle abilities of each pet. They have crowd control and aoe abilities, too! I have a good solution for you:

1. Put Enkindle on a big button on your UI
2. Cut a .5-1" square bit of tape and write "Wildfire" or "Twisters" on it.
3. Put the tape over your Enkindle button.

BAM! Summoner is fixed. Can we talk about ideal rotations, BIS, and cooldown timing on boss fights now? You know, conversations that are useful.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Yay!!! I was right!

There is so much wrong with this post it baffles the mind.

Firstly "In the local area"? So just having your pet out would cause you to aggro everything on the map? or 100 yalms around? What about dungeons? The summoner would basically be unplayable.

Also with the above in mind if you where in the area, and you're not dead yet, you'd be making other players angry by taking all their mobs for quests, fates, Hunting logs and Atma books. Just so you can feel like a special snowflake? I hope you never go into game design.

With my powers of clairvoyance I shall predict that she'll quote me, address none of the points in my post, then go on a rambling spiel on how the Summoner is "supposed" to be >_<.

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Originally Posted by Razard

snowflake

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Why do people keep using this word to be rude to people. Its got to be the rudest, idiotic word I've seen on the forums. Its like a sly way to attack someone.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

Why do people keep using this word to be rude to people. Its got to be the rudest, idiotic word I've seen on the forums. Its like a sly way to attack someone.

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On the contrary, old bean. I am, in fact being very direct in my meaning. That being a derogatory term for someone who wants to be unique.

As the old saying goes: Of course you're unique, just the same as everyone else.

I also think you missed the point of my post. It's rather clear Akiza wants Summoner to be something she can be a show off with, at the expense of everyone else.

@Blackcanary: Trust me when I say this, Akiza has been at this trolling game for a long time...politeness and civility are wearing thinner than a pair of yoga pants two sizes too small...

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner needed to be rebalanced since October of last year but it got nerfed instead. The Summoner branching off of the Arcanist and getting dots were fine Square seemed to forget that the equip job would be a Summoner not a dot master. Fester and Tridisater should have been on the Arcanist and the Summoner should have gotten more pet buffs and spell commands also it should have been more on pet mechanics.

Add Summoner spells that commands the pet to cause aoe elemental damage and weather affects.

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In case of SMN, wasn't a nerf a perfect rebalance? You're still highest DPS even after this nerf. Tbh I think another "rebalance" would be fine atm.

To rebalance the Egis Square needs to make the Egis more like the Primals. Ifrit uses his element to make explosive charges to take you down. Titan is a massive tank and uses his element to crush you. Garuda uses here element to cut you down from all angles.
Ifrit Egi- remove radiant shield since it's a useless ability and add radiant plumes, eruption and a passive ability that adds burning to dots.
Titan Egi- add weight of the land and a passive ability that adds heavy to dots.
Garuda Egi- add summon twisters and a passive ability that adds wind burn to dots.

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

You've basically just described the enkindle abilities of each pet. They have crowd control and aoe abilities, too! I have a good solution for you:

1. Put Enkindle on a big button on your UI
2. Cut a .5-1" square bit of tape and write "Wildfire" or "Twisters" on it.
3. Put the tape over your Enkindle button.

BAM! Summoner is fixed. Can we talk about ideal rotations, BIS, and cooldown timing on boss fights now? You know, conversations that are useful.

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Ifrit Egi- does not do explosive charge with enkindle he does his signature attack
Garuda Egi- does not summon twisters she does aerial blast which does massive to target and all nearby enemies

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Originally Posted by Akiza

To rebalance the Egis Square needs to make the Egis more like the Primals. Ifrit uses his element to make explosive charges to take you down. Titan is a massive tank and uses his element to crush you. Garuda uses here element to cut you down from all angles.
Ifrit Egi- remove radiant shield since it's a useless ability and add radiant plumes, eruption and a passive ability that adds burning to dots.
Titan Egi- add weight of the land and a passive ability that adds heavy to dots.
Garuda Egi- add summon twisters and a passive ability that adds wind burn to dots.

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Sounds imbalanced.

I want to do 500dps too but I don't expect it until the gear allows.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Well, I got the rambling spiel right at least.

I know, in "honour" of Akiza's... persistence. Lets have a Silly Suggestions Contest! The aim is to make a suggestion as silly as Akiza's ones.

Using Enkindle initiates a 5 min unskippable cutscene where the Egi turns into a Godzilla size version of the primal and does their special attack and it does 50,000 base damage. Oh and make Enkindle 1 min cooldown.

Go!

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Sounds imbalanced.

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Adding her suggestion would be imbalanced without adjusting other things to compensate, but the actual -concept- of what she suggested isn't a bad one. Of course, to put that much strength into the egi would require removing strength from the Summoner, which would either weaken Arcanist severely (and scholar indirectly) or require removing some of the tools Summoner gets such as Fester (i.e., trading the Fester nuke for additional dot effect from the Egi on top of your current dots).

I do think the passive "adds heavy to dots" from Titan-Egi would be completely useless, though. Summoner already has a dot that applies heavy, and with each dot applying heavy, the heavy resist would build fast and you'd very quickly be getting no benefit from heavy whatsoever. I'd be more interested in seeing Titan-Egi getting a Gaol ability, though it would technically function more like sleep than Titan's Gaol. It would just resemble Titan's Gaol.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Using Enkindle initiates a 5 min unskippable cutscene where the Egi turns into a Godzilla size version of the primal and does their special attack and it does 50,000 base damage. Oh and make Enkindle 1 min cooldown.

Go!

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Egi should definitely be renamed Kaiju.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Sounds imbalanced.

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Considering there not doing anything to the Summoner and the Pet until the level cap is raise it's not imbalanced

Why the necro on this thread? WHYYYY?!

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Considering there not doing anything to the Summoner and the Pet until the level cap is raise it's not imbalanced

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"It's not imbalanced because I said so!"

What is the average dps for Summoner in Second Coil of Bahumat

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Considering there not doing anything to the Summoner and the Pet until the level cap is raise it's not imbalanced

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So remove their current skills and get them stronger ones, when it already balanced with the current classes is not imbalance?

I think you need to revisit your understanding of the word. While you're at it, you should probably figure out why your "suggestions" are not good for SMN.