ARR Gil Cap Reduction

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Originally Posted by Felis

Say item x cost 20m in 1.0. Someone want to sell it in ARR for 15m (150m in 1.0). Most players don't have more than 7m in ARR (70m in 1.0).
The seller can now decrease his price or wait until the players have enough money. But don't forget, we get 1/10 gil from leves, from stuff we sell to npc, from quests, from chests and from monsters (I hope they change the "earn x gil from killing enemies" achievement). It get harder to earn the 8m to buy the item that cost 15m (the 8m would be the same as 80m in 1.0). So the seller have no other choice than to decrease his price.

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LOGIC FTW!

lol you can call me a troll all you want, but i have less posts on here because I actually spend time playing the game, instead of bashing peoples opinion to fit you own.

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Originally Posted by KadeDoom

lol you can call me a troll all you want, but i have less posts on here because I actually spend time playing the game, instead of bashing peoples opinion to fit you own.

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You're saying that .. instead of NOT wasting gil, people would just start breaking ToS and buying gil? And you expect us to believe you aren't a troll?

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Originally Posted by KadeDoom

if 35 post make me a troll, somehow i don't see it, I have an issue about this thread and loss, people say im not losing but i am, and people like you saying I dont comprehend and antagonizing me about it are just here to piss me off.

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We're seriously not trying to antagonize you, we are merely trying to get you to understand that when the money changes, it changes universally, so in the end the base numerics don't matter: the percentages do.

And the net % change relative between you and the rest of the economy is zero.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

You're saying that .. instead of NOT wasting gil, people would just start breaking ToS and buying gil? And you expect us to believe you aren't a troll?

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Like I said read 14pro ranking look at my character, read the achievements, and time spent on the game vs here on the forums. I play the game and understand you can not see the point I am making.

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Originally Posted by KadeDoom

Like I said read 14pro ranking look at my character, read the achievements, and time spent on the game vs here on the forums. I play the game and understand you can not see the point I am making.

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I guess I don't? I guess I don't.

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Originally Posted by KadeDoom

Like I said read 14pro ranking look at my character, read the achievements, and time spent on the game vs here on the forums. I play the game and understand you can not see the point I am making.

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And many of us have done way more than you have. What's your point?

Right now 1 gil could roughly be compared to a penny. In 2.0 all our pennies are being converted in to dimes. They will be worth the same, you just won't have so much trouble keeping your pants up if you keep all your money in your pockets.

Anyone who is STILL arguing that this is a negative change is either a troll, an idiot, or both.

As for the argument about people not selling things at adjusted rates after 2.0...

The player based market requires TWO THINGS:

Players who are willing to sell things.

and players who want to buy things.

If you are thinking people are going to continue to sell things with their current price tags just ask yourself this simple question.

Would you buy it?

If you wouldn't buy it, chances are not many people are willing to buy it either.

Just because someone puts something up for sale at a given price DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL SELL AT THAT PRICE.

If no one is willing to pay that amount, it won't sell and the person will be forced to lower their prices to remain competitive.

Is it going to be a straight transition once 2.0 starts? Probably not. But chances are if you feel a given price after 2.0 is too high, you won't be alone, and the item won't sell and in a few days the price will go down.

If you STILL think this is an unfair change and you are some how being deprived of something you put a lot of effort into acquiring, I'll be happy to take your gil when you quit.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

And many of us have done way more than you have. What's your point?

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lol 8 people is not many, but I give you props on time spent on the game vs someone that has nothing to lose.

LOL ppl saying they will quit game cuz they wont have the same millions when ARR comes up is laughable to the max ...bcuz you could...idk ...Burn all your damn gil from now to shutdown?? get triple melded stuff or w/e :P

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Originally Posted by KadeDoom

lol 8 people is not many, but I give you props on time spent on the game vs someone that has nothing to lose.

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You mean 63 people?

Pro is SORELY out of date.

Him spending too much time ingame is probably why basic economics seems hard for him.

1 billion or 100 mil. Gil cap is the gil cap either way so who cares. It's business as usual.

hopefully they take the same thought process to the stat values... having 300 of a stats is just stupid

Suck up your medicine like good puppies.

I don't care about the gil just the time spent earning it.

If the time spent to earn said gil in ARR is relative to V1 then I have nothing to complain about.

We all know the real reason for this is that they don't want super rich players running about buying up the world in ARR.

I would rather they just told the truth instead of some lame excuse about arrow prices.

Oh man... after reading pages and pages in an attempt to catch up on the discussion, I have to say all that ended up happening is me laughing out loud on multiple occasions.

It's just deliciously ironic to see people who don't get it and think they're losing wealth call others stupid/dupes/etc.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

It's very likely performance related. They'll be able to make the database more efficient by only having to store and retrieve smaller values. Reducing the significant digit by 1 for something accessed as much as virtual currency can result in huge overall processing gains.

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wrong, a 32 bit number holds 4,294,967,295, and putting numbers into memory smaller than the bitness of the processor is actually a performance hit, please stop pulling stuff out of your crack

i do have a question on this matter. with the value of my gil going up in ARR x10 times is the value of my 1 gil in ARR worth more than 1 of gath's gil in 1.0?

i understand his 1 gil is worth more than mine now, but when mine is worth 10x what it is will it then be worth more?

the reason i ask is because if not i would like to invest in alot of gath's gil.

I'll have 8.1k come 2.0, time to warm up the cardboard box, imma be homeless!

Actually you should still hoard gil. Gonna be more things to spend on.

Unless you're one of those people that actually still thinks that the more Gil you have the more wealth you're losing. In which case, carry on good sir. Better for the rest of us.

Jolly good.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Actually you should still hoard gil. Gonna be more things to spend on.

Unless you're one of those people that actually still thinks that the more Gil you have the more wealth you're losing. In which case, carry on good sir. Better for the rest of us.

Jolly good.

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I seriously doubt people will be listing thing on the AH exactly 1/10th of what they are now lol. Maybe more, maybe less. Probably more than 1/10th.

i think all they need to do is make the max selling price lower on retainers & the up coming AH, and add gil sinks like quest items to start special things like a leve, skirmish, NM fight, chocobo race bets, arena bets stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I seriously doubt people will be listing thing on the AH exactly 1/10th of what they are now lol. Maybe more, maybe less. Probably more than 1/10th.

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which is actually where SE could do some manipulative immersion breaking sneaky crap and also divide all the price histories of items still able to be sold in 2.0 by 10, whip up some BS lore for why anyone still remembers (clearly that information was written on darksteel-adaman alloy slabs) and make it very difficult for anyone to sell at the old prices
I doubt that'll happen, but I know things will stabilize at some point, though by the time the prices would have receded to 1/10th of historical values on the wards, fluctuations in supply or demand will have started to affect the price to the extent that the pressures of a 90% reduction in market-wide gil supply will have waned

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I seriously doubt people will be listing thing on the AH exactly 1/10th of what they are now lol. Maybe more, maybe less. Probably more than 1/10th.

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True, but a lot of that has to do with the values of items changing in 2.0 for many reasons other than the new denomination.

Crafting and gathering are fundamentally different. Things like materia are being rebalanced. More gil sinks and items being made available. Some items being removed.

All of those will impact the market far more than a new denomination. So by investing gil now in items you'd be engaging in futures trading, which can lead to both great gains and great losses, and which Yoshi P expressly suggested against.

Your call.

Yoshi-P dropped hints at the drop rate (or conversion rate) rather in his statement. I'm guessing that high value materia (hells/heavens style, most perfect tier IV materias) will be more plentiful in ARR. Which is to say, infinitely better than getting MND II/III 60% of the time

think of it this way, you be starting a new game with max level and 1/10th the gil you have. while new player will have no gil or gear. That a huge advantage.

I agree with you there. The money i made killing mobs and doing leves must be up to, what? 6kk the most (up until I learnt how much more money I could make with the AH). I've got 100kk at the moment, and guess what? I didn't make it buying and selling things to NPCs.

.NPCs buy things at low price
.NPC sell things at higher prices
What do you do? -> Make money at the Auction House
And guess what? Items at the AH won't have a 10% discount

This change will affect the money we have and the NPCs
The AH wont change much

And the way things are going, seems like SE wants to make making gil even more difficult (like in FFXI)

So don't fool yourselves, because dropping 10% means its going to be a lot harder to make money

What will prevent this from happening:

Gillionaire has 999mil gil. 900 normal players have 1 mil gil each. Gillionaire Spends 900mil gil equally amongst each player buying up all the HQ materials in the game causing short term hyper inflation. Gillionaire now has all the HQ materials on the AH + 99 milion gil. 900 normal players now have 2 mil each. ARR launches, Gillionaire still has all the HQ materials, and now 9.9 mil gil while the 900 normal players only have 200K. Normal players now want to buy HQ crafted gear that gillionaire makes. Gillionaire sells back the now transformed HQ materials to the players he bought them from for 150K each (1.5mil pre ARR); Normal Players pay 50% more than they had sold materials for cause Gillionaire controls the market and they have no choice but to buy at his prices. Gillionaire now has 9.9mil + 900x 150K (135mil). Gillionaire spends excess gil on HQ materials ensuring he maintains control of the market.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Am I missing something?

The gil cap reduction looks good on paper and in theory, but then again so did those mortgage backed securities and derivatives that caused the world wide economic crisis.

Obviously, I am imagining the worst case scenario where the rich take advantage of the poor, but show me proof that this doesn't already happen?

SO, what measures will be put into effect to prevent players from doing this? I know that the morning after the official announcement on the Live Producer Letter that literally all materia were bought off the AH on my server. What's to stop them from hoarding all the HQ darksteel/gold/mythril/cobalt/electrum ore?

New items? Increase in level cap? New recipes? New base materials?

Matsume... they're not reducing the gil cap. They're reducing all gil values in game to 10% of what they are now. The scenario you spent on so long to write up has no relevance to this as it can be done with or without a new denomination.

Yay for people still not getting it.

/facepalm

The problem with this idea is that the economy is user controlled, no matter what kind of choke-hold they put on decreasing NPC's buying amounts the players will decide how much they want for something they farm/craft/re-sell.

Like many have said before, the have's will have a nice pillow of money while they have-nots will have no way to make enough to compete from the launch.. it will be like FFXI all over again right after international release Rise Of Zilart..

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Matsume... they're not reducing the gil cap. They're reducing all gil values in game to 10% of what they are now. The scenario you spent on so long to write up has no relevance to this as it can be done with or without a new denomination.

Yay for people still not getting it.

/facepalm

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Exactly. the rich will inflate whenever there is a new source of profit, like atomos drop values cause relic parts to skyrocket, people can afford insane prices, so prices continue to rise.

@ Enri

This has been addressed multiple times. When every single player in the game has 10% of the gil they used to, it is ridiculously silly to think prices on the player-controlled market will not drop as a result.

Whether they drop exactly to 10% is irrelevant, as the values of almost everything will change in 2.0 along with crafting, gathering and drop rate changes.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yay for people still not getting it.

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Well, it was fun to read at first but after, what, 30 pages it's pretty frustrating to see. Heh.

As for the actual change, I don't really see why SE feel they need to do it but I trust them that it's necessary. Either way is fine by me.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Matsume... they're not reducing the gil cap. They're reducing all gil values in game to 10% of what they are now. The scenario you spent on so long to write up has no relevance to this as it can be done with or without a new denomination.

Yay for people still not getting it.

/facepalm

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Sorry to break it to you, but, even if i mis interpreted the gil cap reduction bit, the scenario still plays out. It doesnt matter if gil cap is reduced or not. The underlieing problem I highlighted is how the rich can easily take advantage of the poor and get even richer.

Yay for people still not getting it.

/facepalm

case in point:

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Originally Posted by Angelas

The problem with this idea is that the economy is user controlled, no matter what kind of choke-hold they put on decreasing NPC's buying amounts the players will decide how much they want for something they farm/craft/re-sell.

Like many have said before, the have's will have a nice pillow of money while they have-nots will have no way to make enough to compete from the launch.. it will be like FFXI all over again right after international release Rise Of Zilart..

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All you did was point out one misinterpretation as if it would make the rest of my post wrong but unfortunately the gil cap reduction or not has no effect on the scenario. Please reread it. And tell me what will stop the rich from taking advantage of the poor? So the gil cap isnt reduced, instead of spending excess gil on mats the just horde the excess gil what difference does that make?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

The underlieing problem I highlighted is how the rich can easily take advantage of the poor and get even richer. :

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The rich can already take advantage of the poor with the current system.

Im poor :( gimme some

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Sorry to break it to you, but, even if i mis interpreted the gil cap reduction bit, the scenario still plays out. It doesnt matter if gil cap is reduced or not. The underlieing problem I highlighted is how the rich can easily take advantage of the poor and get even richer.

Yay for people still not getting it.

/facepalm

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Like I said, your scenario can be done right now. With no change. It has nothing to do with the change to gil denomination. That hypothetical scenario is one of an insanely rich person using his resources to monopolize a market. It has absolutely nothing to do with a redenomination.

Stop posting for a bit and think it out. Go wiki redenomination as well. It should help.

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

The fact of the matter is the AH won't scale down in parallel with the gil change. You haven't played many MMOs for any discernible amount of time if you honestly think otherwise. In ANY online game where currency and economy exists, any change in value of currency, tokens, or anything as such always causes immediate, but not permanent, inflation. Face it and suck it up, it's going to be a crafter's paradise at launch.

This is not an opinion, this is a fact and an inevitability. I'm going to be making bank off you folk that aren't preparing, so it's win/win anyways.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

What will prevent this from happening:

Gillionaire has 999mil gil. 900 normal players have 1 mil gil each. Gillionaire Spends 900mil gil equally amongst each player buying up all the HQ materials in the game causing short term hyper inflation. Gillionaire now has all the HQ materials on the AH + 99 milion gil. 900 normal players now have 2 mil each. ARR launches, Gillionaire still has all the HQ materials, and now 9.9 mil gil while the 900 normal players only have 200K. Normal players now want to buy HQ crafted gear that gillionaire makes. Gillionaire sells back the now transformed HQ materials to the players he bought them from for 150K each (1.5mil pre ARR); Normal Players pay 50% more than they had sold materials for cause Gillionaire controls the market and they have no choice but to buy at his prices. Gillionaire now has 9.9mil + 900x 150K (135mil). Gillionaire spends excess gil on HQ materials ensuring he maintains control of the market.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Am I missing something?

The gil cap reduction looks good on paper and in theory, but then again so did those mortgage backed securities and derivatives that caused the world wide economic crisis.

Obviously, I am imagining the worst case scenario where the rich take advantage of the poor, but show me proof that this doesn't already happen?

SO, what measures will be put into effect to prevent players from doing this? I know that the morning after the official announcement on the Live Producer Letter that literally all materia were bought off the AH on my server. What's to stop them from hoarding all the HQ darksteel/gold/mythril/cobalt/electrum ore?

New items? Increase in level cap? New recipes? New base materials?

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Oh, silly me!
I love selling things and being the Personal Assistant of everyone for Gil :) (note the sarcasm)
So I'm going to do it all over again, wich is totally fun! :D
But hey, that's no problem! I wasn't working like a slave at all
(I feel like one of those retired old man that just found out their pension is getting reduced)

That won't really help but they're doing it anyways.
(Jus remember, in some games with low money cap players invented Tokens. For example, a game really famous in Steam had a gil cap of 400kk in wich players started trading Tokens of 1.200kk. That's just an example. If that's the case, we'll loose 10% of what we had plus the token obtaining problem.)

Reducing everything a 10% will reduce inflation and prevent it in the future (since they're suppose to release some new content that the NPC's will sell -since the more we buy to NPCs will be less actual money)

That is in theory.
Excuse me if I remain skeptical about how good this is going to work.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Like I said, your scenario can be done right now. With no change. It has nothing to do with the change to gil denomination. That hypothetical scenario is one of an insanely rich person using his resources to monopolize a market. It has absolutely nothing to do with a redenomination.

Stop posting for a bit and think it out. Go wiki redenomination as well. It should help.

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Look I fully understand the economic principals involved. Matter of fact your comment about me using the term gil cap had nothing to do with the situation i was proposing. Yes, you are entirely right that the situation I am purporting can be done right now, and is being done right now. Yet, you don't think the gil reduction could exacerbate the issue?

All these people who say, oh this will be just like FFXI where gil was hard to come by. Well as a max lvl leathercrafter in FFXI I also remember a number of oversights that led to gil producing exploits (bot fishing for rusty caps for example). I undestand how much easier it will be to work with smaller numbers from a developers stand point over the long term but the question remains:

what will SE do to prevent this from happening again? Do you honestly think SE wont include some sort of oversight wherein players will take advantage of npc buyback prices leading to a flood in gil? I know they are planning all these gil sinks but I am weary, Noctis. This happens every time. At this very moment, for example, I know a special someone buying a NQ item on the wards, crafting it, and npcing the result at no less than 1mil gil profit per hour. On two accounts at the same time.

So if all goes well in lala land, all gil vaues are reduced by one digit. If players follow through accordingly, this friend of mine still makes 100K per hour profit (per account) just npcing an item he buys off the wards. Oh and for those of you who will say "you can make way more than 1mil an hour farming mats for relic weapons" I know this very well, but the money you would get by doing this comes from another player, not from an npc.

Essentially SE's main problem is the fact that more money is going into the game than going out. It's that simple. This is all a big bet on wether or not player housing and other forms of gil sinks yet to be implemented will balance gil in/gil out. If gil sinks > gil generators then giland items will maintain value. But if gil sinks < gil generators then hyper inflation is inevitable.

All we can do is wait and see.