Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

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Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

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Not all jobs need to be difficult, but that's not the question of easy or not, there the job no longer has any depth and flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

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Hot take: It never was.

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Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

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Of course not. They're not asking for overly complex job.
They're just asking for a job with a bit of complexity, depth and flexibility that cannot be macro'd in a way you only need to press 1.

I mean, it's crazy when someone asks for a bit of complexity, a lot are picturing rocket science.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Of course not. They're not asking for overly complex job.
They're just asking for a job with a bit of complexity, depth and flexibility that cannot be macro'd in a way you only need to press 1.

I mean, it's crazy when someone asks for a bit of complexity, a lot are picturing rocket science.

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People are especially salty about this one because they took a job that had complexity and made it one of the simplest in the game. No one complains about, say, RDM simplicity because it's always been like that.

Edit: Furthermore, in SHB we had a nice range of options on Caster. RDM for simple, SMN for moderate complexity, BLM for high complexity. Now we don't have an option for middle of the road any more.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

People are especially salty about this one because they took a job that had complexity and made it one of the simplest in the game. No one complains about, say, RDM simplicity because it's always been like that.

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Indeed they took a top dps fairly complex class (at least to me) and made it low dps class without any complexity. 800 hours spend with my smn and they completely removed it from game I think this warrants some salty. Especially as it was very poorly communicated by se.

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Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

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There's nothing that needs to "click", you press 1 button for 30 seconds and the second button for the other 30 seconds. You could give the job to someone with the level hidden and say it's a lvl 50 job, no one would realize.

People have the same syndrom as mch or healers, as soon as people talk about the idea of having a bit of ceiling or depth put into the job, casuals that only wants to press one button and have always refused to learn comes with their forks.

Old smn wasnt hard: Pop bahamut -> hardcast dot -> tridaster when they come down -> summon phoenix the gcd after -> tridisaster when dots go down after phoenix -> tri disaster after using transe -> deathflare + bahamut -> hard cast dot -> loop. The rest of the time? ruin 3 and egi assault.

Worst part Ivven: They take a job that people played for 8 years for a specific reason: they like pets, dots, complexity; and made a totally different job with a middle finger to all the old players and the year of feedbacks they provided for years, basically booting them out of the job, same as mch in shb.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

Old smn wasnt hard: Pop bahamut -> hardcast dot -> tridaster when they come down -> summon phoenix the gcd after -> tridisaster when dots go down after phoenix -> tri disaster after using transe -> deathflare + bahamut -> hard cast dot -> loop. The rest of the time? ruin 3 and egi assault.

Worst part Ivven: They take a job that people played for 8 years for a specific reason: they like pets, dots, complexity; and made a totally different job with a middle finger to all the old players and the year of feedbacks they provided for years, basically booting them out of the job, same as mch in shb.

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When you describe it like that old SMN sounds far more boring than new SMN. The gameplay loop you've just described doesn't resemble anything similar to a Final Fantasy summoner, and was considered by most to be unworthy of its namesake. I like my chain-summoning and rite/catastrophe spells far more by comparison, and I love how the job no longer physically hurts to play.

Again, jobs change in MMOs. Old SMN was a relic of the past when every other job had already been streamlined-it was an active turn off when compared to how natural most other jobs feel to play, and now new SMN is a relatively smooth experience for most. The only advice that I could give when it comes to that situation is to try out multiple jobs-Summoner was co-opted by Warlock/poison mage aesthetics and gameplay for 8 years too long.

The players who feel so strongly about this topic have been encouraged multiple time to organize their ideas for new caster job additions, seeing as how new Summoner is no longer beholden exclusively to them anymore. New Summoner will see additions and refinements over time but they will follow suit with the current design philosophy-there is no going back to past mechanics that have been universally rejected.

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Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

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As others said old smn wasn't really that hard. After you get basic down to old smn the flow was pretty easy to get hold of. The hard thing about old smn was learning its opener since the game really didn't do a good job pointing you in the right direction and you most like had to use outside sources to learn the job. After you did that and practice on a dummy some the job got easier and played just any other job in the game. At least that was my experience with SB and ShB smn. The problem most of us have with new smn is that they took all its complexly and flexibility out and made it on the rails experience where you only press one or two buttons and you can't really never able to adjust for downtime or adds in the savage fights.

I have been on the threads saying the same thing: I don't want to them go back to old smn, I like new smn but I want them to add more and finish the job. Since new smn does feel unfinished and feels it need more added to it. I want this to happen sooner than later also, I want them to continue to work on smn thought out 6.0 instead of leaving us with this unfinished version of the job for 2 years. I'm a die-hard smn lover and hurts me I had to switch to rdm this tier because it is just more fun to play in savage fights than smn. I still do roulette's as smn to get my fill but on raid nights I rather play rdm just because I know that job is more engaging to play.

Loving SMN myself, though I would prefer it if they swapped the order around. Allow the primal summons any time with individual cooldowns (so the same one can't be spammed consecutively) with those summons providing a charge to a gauge that summoning bahamut or phoenix would consume (similarly separated with individual cooldowns). That would also give them the design freedom to add more primal summons (leviathan, shiva, etc.) that function differently or have different effects to nudge SMNs a little more toward support, if the developers wanted to do so (it would be consistent with summoners throughout the series). Even if all they do is damage, some summons may provide more mobility capabilities than others and other limitations. They would also have the design space to add in more elder summons alongside bahamut and phoenix to function in a similar manner with varying abilities (shinryuu perhaps). Players would then have flexibility to determine which summons to use in which situations.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

That's as ridiculous a statement as saying abilities like Crimson Cyclone don't exist because they're locked behind summons. Which is why I said it, to point out the ridiculousness of your statement. Radiant Aegis lasts 30s, Bahamut lasts 15s. Think about it. Hell I'll do it for you: You're about to use Bahamut, are you going to take damage in the next 15s? If yes use Aegis, if not then don't, if you don't know then pay attention because Bahamut should be coming out around the same time for each raid/trial encounter.

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Why are you mentioning again DPS skills? Crimson cyclone has nothing to do with the discussion, im talking about utility skills, there is no problem if crimson cyclone is behind a summon, that is part of the rotation.

Duration of the skills is irrelevant, when you see like, per example, the boss casting big aoe and you need the shield and you have bahamuth out (bahamuth lasts like 15 seconds), what you do? so well, so now we have to memorize every encounter and the exact moment when shield is going to be needed.

It'll still heal if people take damage after summoning Phoenix, it's a 21s hot. Rekindle can stay on a person for up to 30s before being triggered, if you add Phoenix's 15s duration to figure out which tank has aggro or find someone who's damaged that's 45s to make use of the ability, every 2 mins. That's a long time.

While also there are times where the whole heal gets wasted because there is no incoming damage for their duration, ok.

Again as I keep saying I don't think these heals are good design, they absolutely could be a lot better but they're not useless. Not everything needs to exist in one extreme or another.

It is not about extremes, it is about getting the best from a skill, if sometimes you can heal and sometimes dont, then there is not way you can trust in that skill

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Alright, that's a fair desire. And if that means SMN's dps gets taxed further? (Not that we know anything about how Squeenix deals with such matters, purely hypothetical.)

why? SMN dps is already low, everyone thinks like they must give something for exchange for something that is supossed to be

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I dont know if you know the class enough, or maybe there is an idealism to never improve the job or give it the qol that deserves, thats all i have to say.