The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which is perfectly acceptable in the 1-50 range but isn't by levels 70+. By that point, you aren't new and shouldn't be learning in dungeons like Holminster Switch. Frankly, even 60+ is pushing it, especially now that all those dungeons have been nerfed into the ground. If you can't handle a wall pull by 70, you should be going back down to easier dungeons not attempting others to adapt to your unwillingness to learn.

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So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

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That isn't what I said. Your previous posts implied learning how to wall pull period not a specific pull itself. Hence why I said you shouldn't be learning how to do wall pulls at 71 but should already be practicing them by 50. Put simply if you're still uncomforting pulling more than a single pack in any higher level dungeon, you should go back to the easier ones or use Trusts for practice.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That isn't what I said. Your previous posts implied learning how to wall pull period not a specific pull itself. Hence why I said you shouldn't be learning how to do wall pulls at 71 but should already be practicing them by 50. Put simply if you're still uncomforting pulling more than a single pack in any higher level dungeon, you should go back to the easier ones or use Trusts for practice.

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Surely learning to W2W pull, especially in a leveling dungeons includes knowing what you're pulling. Is there anything I need to stun, what AoE patterns am I facing, when should I use my invulnerability, where should I make the camp, are there any ranged mobs, can I fit it all in my AoE radius. You need to know all of that and its pull specific. We can all cycle cooldowns but there is far more to being efficient with W2W pulling than that. So yes, people will still need to learn in 70+ dungeons.

For leveling dungeons, it's certainly "harder" to W2W pull. However for me that is part of the fun. If it's my first time in a dungeon as a tank then I will generally avoid W2W in leveling and try not to expect it from other new tanks. I will say though that some of the funnest pulls are in those situations and I get a lot of enjoyment from succeeding at them regardless of what role I'm in at the time.

If a tank is going "too slow" for me I just say "Don't be afraid to do bigger pulls" but that's only when I know for a fact that I can keep them alive. If I'm a DPS I only ask for larger pulls in the scenarios where it's good to use a caster LB cause that shit is really fun.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

So people aren't allowed to learn pulls now which even the biggest W2W advocates use as an example of a difficult pull?

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If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Oh man, looks like you can't say anything contrary to the OP without their feelings being hurt. Oh well, I'll jump out of this safe space. Enjoy your single pulls & enjoy the box you trap yourself in by saying you can't do this, can't do that. DUngon2hard

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...67/unknown.png

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Aren't people who say you *have* to wall to wall the ones trapping themselves? They're announcing to the world they can't handle it if everything isn't absolutely perfect the way they want it. They can't adjust in a variable situation like Duty Finder can be. Maybe they're the ones who need their safe spaces away from all the "bads" they just can't handle.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If a tank has no interest in learning multipulls by the time they clear stormblood, I want them to quit tanking. If rescue assists or dps assists encourage such a tank to ragequit, that is fine— I won’t leap to the tank’s defense if they still don’t understand how to pick up threat. I’ll even help work against them from Shadowbringers on.

I want tanks that are afraid of trash to give up entirely so I can either fill their spot or simply do without them.

Accommodations have already been made for beginner tanks and slower tanks in Shadowbringers: trusts. I’d encourage players afraid of trash mobs to think of themselves as exiled to trusts until they are willing to deal with healers and dps assisting pulls.

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I'm quite confident that nervous tanks don't want to play with you either.

Also, can you please point out where anyone is advocating for single pulls in level 70 content. Strawmen sure are easy to defeat huh?

I'll kind of repeat myself but ... Why would anyone care so much that tanks do W2W pulls in 60+ or 70+ dungeons though ?

Sure, W2W is the norm in expert roulette, but personally when i jump into leveling roulette or anything that could put me in a lower level dungeon, i don't "expect" tanks do go W2W. If they do, it's better, but if they don't, who cares. To me all dungeons before 80 are casual content, and no one should have to worry about W2W pulls there in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

I'm quite confident that nervous tanks don't want to play with you either.

Also, can you please point out where anyone is advocating for single pulls in level 70 content. Strawmen sure are easy to defeat huh?

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Thing is single pulls at any level rage is a waste.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Surely learning to W2W pull, especially in a leveling dungeons includes knowing what you're pulling. Is there anything I need to stun, what AoE patterns am I facing, when should I use my invulnerability, where should I make the camp, are there any ranged mobs, can I fit it all in my AoE radius. You need to know all of that and its pull specific. We can all cycle cooldowns but there is far more to being efficient with W2W pulling than that. So yes, people will still need to learn in 70+ dungeons.

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Not... really if I'm being honest. There is only one mob in all the Shadowbringers' dungeons you should prioritize stunning, you don't need to small pull to understand where to put your invuln as you can basically feel that out as you go and "making camp" is when the game forces you to stop. There weren't even any noteworthy range mobs, and practically every AoE is generic stuff we've seen for years now from trash. In other words, if you've been wall pulling throughout Stormblood, none of the dungeons in Shadowbringers differ enough for you to change your tactics.

Case in point, I'll rely my experiences. I medium pulled Holminster mostly because it being literal day one I wasn't aware of how far I could go. I started medium pulling Don Mehg but wound up doing the super pull after the last boss because, well, I wasn't taking remotely enough damage to feel threatened. I only played a little more cautiously because of the media tour interviewers suggesting dungeons were hitting harder. MrHappy's specifically mentioned this. Turns out... they didn't. By Qitana, I wall pulled everything I could, though I didn't do the super pulls since wasn't yet aware of them. Zero issue with any. In fact, the only hard experience I had is later on when my friend was leveling Astro, she couldn't heal through Living Dead because of how poorly balanced Astro's healing was at the time.

None of this is a flex, by the way. I don't intend to imply I'm some phenomenal tank because I don't believe I am. It's more to highlight just how easy all these dungeons actually are.