Lets Talk Dark Knight

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Originally Posted by Cyonos

I hope Drk is a soul eating, blood drinking, 2hd wielding, fire balling terror. Clad in the blackest of black armor with glowing red eyes and veins.

Drk as a tank is a horrid idea if i've ever heard one but thats just my opinion.

If you want the high powered slayer, the get one shotted by bosses just cause you dropped a massive ws on it speak up and be heard DRK FTW!

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I'm guessing you're not much of a tank loving guy? Everything you described(besides the one shotted reference) could still be applied to a Tank. There are many different types of Tanks and not all are weak in the damage department or even need a sword/board. WAR is a good example of that.

However, even as a pure DD having them one shotted so easily is a bad idea for the way these encounters are designed.

Like its been said before there are games where Drk is a Tank they have more def than war less than pld. more attack than pld less than war.and enough life drain abilities to almost not even need a healer job unless the mob is naturally resistant to whatever the Drains are based on.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I'm guessing you're not much of a tank loving guy? Everything you described(besides the one shotted reference) could still be applied to a Tank. There are many different types of Tanks and not all are weak in the damage department or even need a sword/board. WAR is a good example of that.

However, even as a pure DD having them one shotted so easily is a bad idea for the way these encounters are designed.

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Agreed. That sort of thing turns DRK into a liability. And unlike XI, you won't have extra people laying about that you can invite into the main alliance in the event one goes down.

The "more damage taken for a ton of potential damage dealt to the mob" bit works in console FFs because you don't have threat/enmity tables to worry about. Your DRK in that party of four is just as likely to get hit as the PLD or the WHM in the group. When SE tried to copy/paste it into XI, what we got was DRK in its current incarnation, to the point their enmity spikes put THF out of the role it was intended to have...because of all that awesome damage.

Personally, I'd be more conservative with DRK this time around. If it HAS to be a damage dealer, then I would make it one whose damage scales with a darkness-based debuff it has to cast on the target mob. Like, place debuff on mob, let it tick to add a DoT component to your overall DPS while still auto-attacking (your auto-attacks would deal X% more damage while the debuff is up). When the debuff is close to wearing off, do something to break/consume/detonate the debuff to add some burst damage. Rinse and repeat. Toss in drains and such to help in weakening a mob and using its own strength against it. It's a different approach, but meh.

PS: Considering the drama that too place over scythe vs great-sword, I'd say it would be safer to have the devs pick a weapon and stick to it.

(In before over 9000 responses of "IF YOU LOVE XI SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT!!1" This is about classes, something XI did very, very, very right. If learning from games which did it right offends your delicate sensibilities, just lol.)

DRK was underrated and perhaps the most misunderstood of all the classes in XI. It required skill to play well, and skill to not end up splatted as a result of not understanding / not wanting to understand cumulative and spike enmity. There was a world of difference between lolDRK (spamming last resort / souleater / gullotine at every cooldown, not caring for much else than scaring the whm / taking hate off the pld / OMFG DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID WITH GULLOTINE LOL HALP ME BYEBYEDEADBADPLZ.) and the well-geared, well-merited and well-informed people which actually understood the job and spike enmity; utilizing DRK as a DD class that could equal, and in some cases, even exceed SAM - so please don't call DRK a liability. Just because 90% of the people which play a class are morons and can't look above epeen screenshots of homg3k'ing lolibri doesn't mean it's the classes' fault.

Personally, I don't want to see DRK tanking. I want to see it in it's XI incarnation; an easy to play but difficult to master enfeebling and damaging powerhouse -- only because XI's concept of DRK was perfect. Something no one seems to have thought of yet; what if they're going to release DRK and other melee DD (Probably SAM, who knows?) as a DD+1 of sorts? DD's which are a cut above what we currently have, but for balance, absolutely cannot do much else but DD? That would be absolutely perfect to me, anyway.

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Originally Posted by faris

(In before over 9000 responses of "IF YOU LOVE XI SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU MARRY IT!!1" This is about classes, something XI did very, very, very right. If learning from games which did it right offends your delicate sensibilities, just lol.)

DRK was underrated and perhaps the most misunderstood of all the classes in XI. It required skill to play well, and skill to not end up splatted as a result of not understanding / not wanting to understand cumulative and spike enmity. There was a world of difference between lolDRK (spamming last resort / souleater / gullotine at every cooldown, not caring for much else than scaring the whm / taking hate off the pld / OMFG DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID WITH GULLOTINE LOL HALP ME BYEBYEDEADBADPLZ.) and the well-geared, well-merited and well-informed people which actually understood the job and spike enmity; utilizing DRK as a DD class that could equal, and in some cases, even exceed SAM - so please don't call DRK a liability. Just because 90% of the people which play a class are morons and can't look above epeen screenshots of homg3k'ing lolibri doesn't mean it's the classes' fault.

Personally, I don't want to see DRK tanking. I want to see it in it's XI incarnation; an easy to play but difficult to master enfeebling and damaging powerhouse -- only because XI's concept of DRK was perfect. Something no one seems to have thought of yet; what if they're going to release DRK and other melee DD (Probably SAM, who knows?) as a DD+1 of sorts? DD's which are a cut above what we currently have, but for balance, absolutely cannot do much else but DD? That would be absolutely perfect to me, anyway.

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DRK is far from perfect in FFXI id go as far to say DRK is broken. DRK has ridiculous recast timers, a horrible 2 hour, horrible dark magic, and not to mention DRK abilities are so mediocre a majority of the jobs have the same abilities; like pup's getting dreadspikes.

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Originally Posted by Bled

DRK was far from perfect in FFXI id go as far to say DRK was broken. DRK has ridiculous recast timers, a horrible 2 hour, horrible dark magic, and not to mention DRK abilities are so mediocre a majority of the jobs have the same abilities; like pup's getting dreadspikes.

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Rofl, I'll disagree with you on that one. Yes, other melee DDs have lesser recast timers, but none of them have the abilities DRK has. Complaining that DRK is "broken" because dragoons can jump more frequently / samurai can charge TP more frequently is inane since the abilities aren't even remotely similar to what DRK can do. It's like whining that BLM is broken because WHMs can cure1 way more frequently than BLMs can AMII. If the abilities are different, there's no comparison between them, even in recast times. WAR has two abilities which are sort of similar to Last Resort and Souleater (vaguely.) berserk and warcry, which are on respective cooldowns of 5 minutes -- which compared to Souleater and Last resort which have recasts of 5 and 6 minutes respectively. I wouldn't call a job "broken" over the sake of one minute. Not to mention souleater gives a 25+ acc boost for that minute too.

Also, I wouldn't call a 2hr where I can absorb 100% of all damage I do to my own HP as useless. It's a bit more useful than merging with a wyvern for haste and a slightly bigger HP pool. (And by a bit, I mean a lot.) Finally~ Drain and Aspir with full merits has saved my life quite a few times. Did you not level your dark magic skill or something?

Since I don't know anything about pup, I can't comment. But what is it, a dreadspike attachment? Or a post-75 ability? Because not being funny, comparing post-75 abilities is just rofl since none of them abide by job balance.

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Originally Posted by faris

Rofl, I'll disagree with you on that one. Yes, other melee DDs have lesser recast timers, but none of them have the abilities DRK has. Complaining that DRK is "broken" because dragoons can jump more frequently / samurai can charge TP more frequently is inane since the abilities aren't even remotely similar to what DRK can do. It's like whining that BLM is broken because WHMs can cure1 way more frequently than BLMs can AMII. If the abilities are different, there's no comparison between them, even in recast times. WAR has two abilities which are sort of similar to Last Resort and Souleater (vaguely.) berserk and warcry, which are on respective cooldowns of 5 minutes -- which compared to Souleater and Last resort which have recasts of 5 and 6 minutes respectively. I wouldn't call a job "broken" over the sake of one minute. Not to mention souleater gives a 25+ acc boost for that minute too.

I was not comparing the recast times to other jobs, i did not even hint at that. The recast timers are just too long for the little gain that you receive.

Also, I wouldn't call a 2hr where I can absorb 100% of all damage I do to my own HP as useless. It's a bit more useful than merging with a wyvern for haste and a slightly bigger HP pool. (And by a bit, I mean a lot.) Finally~ Drain and Aspir with full merits has saved my life quite a few times. Did you not level your dark magic skill or something?

The 2 hour last 30secs.... a complete waste for what it does and the jobs purpose in the grand scheme of things.

Since I don't know anything about pup, I can't comment. But what is it, a dreadspike attachment? Or a post-75 ability? Because not being funny, comparing post-75 abilities is just rofl since none of them abide by job balance.

It is a puppetmaster's automation and can buff group.

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In the grand scheme of things and alongside the other DD jobs DRK is very broken. Best SAM DDing with best DRK, SAM wins plain and simple no matter how good u are at DRK... and that's what makes it broken

but hey everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

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I was not comparing the recast times to other jobs, i did not even hint at that. The recasts timers are just too long for a little gain that you receive.

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If you're not comparing it to other jobs' different abilities then you're comparing it to WAR which has a whole minute and less of a boost than DRK to seperate it. or you're comparing it to nothing at all.

If you're comparing it to nothing, I just want to say one thing. Hasn't it dawned on you that perhaps the devs didn't intend people to last resort themselves to hell every 2 minutes? If morons can kill themselves again before they're even (theoretically) unweakened, that's broken.

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The 2 hour last 30secs.... a complete waste for what it does and the jobs purpose in the grand scheme of things.

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...You must be new. Other than SMN, all classes 2hrs last for 30 secs. Invincible, Azure Lore, Spirit Surge, Blood Weapon - need I go on?

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It is a puppetmaster's automation.

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...But not the puppetmaster. That makes it somewhat lamer since can't those things only use attachments every 15-20 seconds? Again, I can't say much. That's a BLM mage frame though, I assume?

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Best SAM DDing with best DRK, SAM wins plain and simple no matter how good u are at DRK... and that's what makes it broken

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If you mean Post-abyssea you mustn't have known very good DRKs. If you mean in Abyssea, I'll just be over here, laughing venomously.

Honestly, I wouldn't ask the FF14 Dev team to copy the FFXI Dark Knight incarnation. I feel it would be insulting to ask them to do such a thing, let them come up with their own version of it. The name and the theme is all I really care about, the rest I want the Dev team be as creative and unique as possible.

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Originally Posted by Bled

DRK is far from perfect in FFXI id go as far to say DRK is broken. DRK has ridiculous recast timers, a horrible 2 hour, horrible dark magic, and not to mention DRK abilities are so mediocre a majority of the jobs have the same abilities; like pup's getting dreadspikes.

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Ok i here to defend Drk in 11. Drks timers were not long recasts at all if you merit them right all the recast are 5 min just like 90% of everyone elses recasts. Horrible 2hr? obviously if you never had a drk and you never had a zerg set up for it. horrible Drak magic im sorry i never ever like face palm to ppl but this was a /doublefacepalmheaddeskheaddesk moment. Darks were THE BEST at Dark magic. Did you not have Dar5k Magic capped? did you not use Drain or Aspir? Stun? Bio? Did you never use the Absorb spells at all? Not only did they give you a huge boost with Max Dark Magic they debuffed the mob just a equally so everyone in turn did better with Drk there. Mediocre is definitely not the word for drk food, last restort, souleater, absorb str, mnd,acc, drain 2, blood weapon sneak attack, trick attack. Spinning Slash 3645 Dmg pre aby to Byakko and i was opening sc when the war had to do his ws to finish sc Byakko didnt even trun towards the main tank it stayed on the Secondary tank the whole fight. And one of the Strongest Wars in our server (Siren) couldnt even touch my dmg as a Drk.