Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Regardless, the issue people have taken with Vivian is the insistence WHM is perfectly fine and rDPS essentially doesn't matter. To her it may not, but others do care. And it's factually inaccurate to claim WHM isn't the weakest healer in the same sense SAM is the weakest Melee and MCH is inferior to BRD. Presently, WHM is 100% inferior in almost every aspect, which bother many WHM mains who would rather not be repeatedly ask to play something else. It's easy to say no, but if you're looking to broach into the midcore scene or above, you will have a far more difficult time finding a group willing to sacrifice AST so you can play WHM. Of course, this may change come Shadowbringers, however that is the present day meta.

Simply put, no, WHM is not perfectly fine. If nothing changed going into Shadowbringers, you would see a continual deny because they simply cannot match the utility of SCH/AST. They may clear content but a melee comp of MNK/SAM can clear Ultimate. It doesn't mean the BRD isn't complaining every step of the way (or you can't find one, period) because they've been denied Piercing.

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I will say again. If you are having trouble finding a premade group that won't complain about your job. Then make your own out of any friends you have. My group is looking to be a mash of my FC (4 people including myself) another FC (3 people) who I'm trading crystals for runs and just a random friend of mine. Not a single complaint about White Mage either.

You really don't NEED to join a premade that has those kinds of people when other better options are available to you such as forming your own. Thus eliminating the toxic communities response to White Mage.

And I feel the need to point out again that while I like how White Mage currently is. I am not opposed to making it better. In fact the only downside is it being better makes stuff easier and as someone that wants to do things as hard as possible. That is the single negative with White Mage getting buffed. But I am really looking forward to what they are bringing to White Mage in Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is very misleading nowadays. Both Ultimates released before the changes to Malefic III and Collective Unconscious occurred, which caused a sizable upswing in ASTs because they're simply better at both fights than WHM in almost every aspect. People aren't taking WHM for its thoroughput. They take it due to its better MP management since you're expected to die a lot during prog. As for Savage, you have to factor the current clear logs only date back two weeks. When Alphascape was fresh, AST/SCH was decidedly the better healer comp even for prog, and was noticeably favored.

Regardless, the issue people have taken with Vivian is the insistence WHM is perfectly fine and rDPS essentially doesn't matter. To her it may not, but others do care. And it's factually inaccurate to claim WHM isn't the weakest healer in the same sense SAM is the weakest Melee and MCH is inferior to BRD. Presently, WHM is 100% inferior in almost every aspect, which bother many WHM mains who would rather not be repeatedly ask to play something else. It's easy to say no, but if you're looking to broach into the midcore scene or above, you will have a far more difficult time finding a group willing to sacrifice AST so you can play WHM. Of course, this may change come Shadowbringers, however that is the present day meta.

Simply put, no, WHM is not perfectly fine. If nothing changed going into Shadowbringers, you would see a continual deny because they simply cannot match the utility of SCH/AST. They may clear content but a melee comp of MNK/SAM can clear Ultimate. It doesn't mean the BRD isn't complaining every step of the way (or you can't find one, period) because they've been denied Piercing.

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Not going to waste a ton of time so just a few bullet points.

1) Superior MP economy is a big part of thoroughput. It's because of this that WHM can heal so effectively since it's larger heals are tied to the GCD and it's mp pool. It makes it the least efficient healer but also offers more potential HPS when that efficency sacrifice is made.

2) I understand that no one wants to admit it (or nearly no one) but for some groups that efficiency loss by taking a WHM is justifiable and the optimal choice if they aren't cootdinated enough to make the most of AST. Once you start forcing GCD healing you get into a territory where WHM's superior mp economy and the raw potency of Cure III matter. At the very high end these are weighted less... but most of the game and even most of the raid community aren't at the very high end, they're just making comps that they see the best of the best use without wondering if it's the best decision for them.

3) WHM has lagged behind in clear rates for the entire tier, this is due to a multitude of things not the least of which being the fact that Final Omega is basically designed to exacerbate it's weaknesses and downplay it's strength. The gap between WHM and AST has never even approached the gap between AST and SCH though, highlighting the true issue with healer balance being that SCH is too good. Even now WHM and AST are separated by a little more than 500 clears and SCH is 3k ahead of AST. If you want to point fingers at the problem healer there it is.

4) You responded to me in this post and you finish up with "no, WHM isn't perfectly fine"... please, go ahead and quote where I said it was? I've advocated for an rDPS buff for WHM for a very long time now, I'm aware that it isn't perfect; I'm here because I'm bothered by the delusion that WHM is somehow so dramatically inferior in every way. It isn't. That's stupid. I started responding here because someone tried to claim that WHM didn't have the strongest raw healing of the three, another nonsensical rambling.

WHM has strengths and weaknesses just like each healer does. Yes, it's weaknesses stand out in higher end raiding but right now it's in a place where it can comfortably and adequately compete with the other two healers and with the incoming nerfs to overall job synergy in ShB I'm imagining that when personal dps matters more and SCH can't lay all heavy lifting on their partners there will be a much narrower gap.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I can tell you don't play all 3 healers in any kind of setting where balance matters.

He's clearly referring the pure HPS that a WHM can achieve. Sure, in an optimal setting SCH and AST have enough oGCDs to heal through the majority of damage that will come out in any content... but not all content is an optimal setting. Progging with SCH and WHM is easier in most situations because of the potential for huge burst healing on demand which is something the other healers just don't have. Yes, in talking about Cure III. I'm talking about Assize every 45 seconds. Plenary Indulgence. Asylum. Benediction. I'm talking about the best MP management in the game. Try keeping the party up through big damage on SCH when your cohealer goes down and you don't have Indom.

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Pure HPS doesn’t matter if the content doesn’t call for it. If a fight only needs 1,000,000 worth of damage healed, why are you going to bring a healer that can heal 10,000,000 worth of damage and call that “utility”? Even with your premise of progression, groups don’t prog forever. The outgoing damage in this game simply isn’t high enough for raw healing to be better than oGCD healing.

Cure III really isn’t as great as you are trying to sell it. It requires players to be stacked together in a far smaller radius than its closest equivalents (Earthly Star and Indom), in addition to its heavy MP cost (where as those cost 0 MP). Assize is also not a healing cooldown in its current iteration. It is a damage button/MP management button, and not much else. Sitting on it waiting for healing results in lost casts per fight, which is inherently inefficient.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

It does matter if you enter PF for an Ex Primal and after people see you also got AST up to 70 ask you to change jobs, and get salty if you don't (Yes, that would be against ToS by now if they "Force" you to do so, but even if they ask nicely -- great feelings around if you don't...).

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I've healed every EX Primal this expansion - a lot of them on WHM. Never had anyone "get salty" and demand that I switch to AST/SCH. Even after I've done a few runs on AST. This is hardly a pervasive issue.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

1) Superior MP economy is a big part of thoroughput. It's because of this that WHM can heal so effectively since it's larger heals are tied to the GCD and it's mp pool. It makes it the least efficient healer but also offers more potential HPS when that efficency sacrifice is made.

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Not when the content doesn't require it. The whole reason WHM falls out of favor so regularly isn't just cards but the simple fact this game does not necessitate raw healing thoroughput. Furthermore, just because WHM has better MP management does not mean it has a decisive edge. AST and SCH can manage easily by putting their resources towards healing instead of damage. The difference is they sacrifice what they're already better at and achieve the same thing. An AST playing more defensively with Boles and using Ewers on themselves is still better because WHM has literally nothing to offer when it comes to raid utility.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

2) I understand that no one wants to admit it (or nearly no one) but for some groups that efficiency loss by taking a WHM is justifiable and the optimal choice if they aren't cootdinated enough to make the most of AST. Once you start forcing GCD healing you get into a territory where WHM's superior mp economy and the raw potency of Cure III matter. At the very high end these are weighted less... but most of the game and even most of the raid community aren't at the very high end, they're just making comps that they see the best of the best use without wondering if it's the best decision for them.

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When we're discussing the overall merits of each individual healer, you do so assuming their strengths not their weaknesses. In a less coordinated group a SAM may be superior to DRG if the former is played by someone who knows how to get the most out of their job. That doesn't make SAM better than DRG—not by a mile. Furthermore, you are severely overrated the benefits of Cure III. Alphascape highlighted the weakness of it hence why AST was the preferred healer even for prog.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

3) WHM has lagged behind in clear rates for the entire tier, this is due to a multitude of things not the least of which being the fact that Final Omega is basically designed to exacerbate it's weaknesses and downplay it's strength. The gap between WHM and AST has never even approached the gap between AST and SCH though, highlighting the true issue with healer balance being that SCH is too good. Even now WHM and AST are separated by a little more than 500 clears and SCH is 3k ahead of AST. If you want to point fingers at the problem healer there it is.

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Is it simply SCH is too good or is there more to it then that? A significant factor for that discrepancy is due to how poorly WHM and AST synergize with one another. Assize and Earthly Star will frequently cause the other to overheal since you rarely need both, and you never want to sit on either. AST is also put at a disadvantage when played as a shield healer. What about WHM/SCH? The issue here is WHM simply doesn't provide enough to out stage AST. It's played because it can raise more easily and the job is a FF stable. But when looking at the overall efficiency of each healer, which is what you do when debating balance, WHM lags behind significantly. Put another way, if you have someone with 80% on AST and 95% on WHM, they would still be better off playing AST because the utility is that much better. And no, I don't simply mean cards. Collective, ED and Earthly are all insanely powerful—better than every one of WHM's counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

4) You responded to me in this post and you finish up with "no, WHM isn't perfectly fine"... please, go ahead and quote where I said it was? I've advocated for an rDPS buff for WHM for a very long time now, I'm aware that it isn't perfect; I'm here because I'm bothered by the delusion that WHM is somehow so dramatically inferior in every way. It isn't. That's stupid. I started responding here because someone tried to claim that WHM didn't have the strongest raw healing of the three, another nonsensical rambling.

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How about instead, I point to where I specifically mentioned someone else, making it fairly obvious I was referring to them? If you bothered to read. Of course. I quoted you because of my initial argument.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I can tell you don't play all 3 healers in any kind of setting where balance matters.

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Just EX and Savage.

You severely overrate WHM's is healing thoroughput. It has an edge in that regard, but only in sub-optimal situations. Cure III is not nearly as good as you're giving it credit for. Assize is good, yes... except Earthly Star is better. It has nearly double the heal potency. Not to mention, holding Assize for specific mechanics will inevitably lose you casts. This not only harms your DPS but your MP. In most cases, it winds up being an overheal because the short CD works against it. Plenary is decent but requires heavy AoE damage in fairly quick succession. Asylum is garbage when held up against Collective. And while Benediction is also good, it has a very lengthily CD. Essential can nearly heal to full, and is on a 45 second CD.

That all being said, the crux of my argument wasn't to say WHM isn't good at healing nor to dismiss Cure III entirely—even if I don't hold it in the same regard you seem to. It was to dispel the belief AST and SCH needed to be brought up to WHM's healing level. They don't. Both are already capable of handling everything without skipping a beat. They may require a bit more work from the player to maximize their potential but neither of their healing has ever been an issue. It's entirely the lack of utility and oGCD weaving that holds WHM back.

Am I the only one that thinks ast's cards haven't really been a big deal this expansion? I mean, from my own experience, the difference in raid dps has been a little over 1% compared to when I played whm.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Am I the only one that thinks ast's cards haven't really been a big deal this expansion? I mean, from my own experience, the difference in raid dps has been a little over 1% compared to when I played whm.

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It all depends on how the cards are optimized, as well as the overall performance of the group. Balance can bring 500 to 1,000 rDPS depending on the rate, kill time, and optimization of the members involved. AST’s personal DPS is also fairly comparable to WHM, and that 500~1,000 rDPS is better than 0.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Pure HPS doesn’t matter if the content doesn’t call for it. If a fight only needs 1,000,000 worth of damage healed, why are you going to bring a healer that can heal 10,000,000 worth of damage and call that “utility”? Even with your premise of progression, groups don’t prog forever. The outgoing damage in this game simply isn’t high enough for raw healing to be better than oGCD healing.

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I really wish people would stop with this mentality since so few groups can actually live up to it.

I've said multiple times that there is no denying the lack of utility on WHM, the point is that groups have to choose between the recovery and healing potential on WHM and the dps bump they'll get from running an AST. For most groups this isn't as cut and dry as people try to make it out to be since most groups just aren't that good. That's the crux of the issue that I'm bringing up.

Balancing around the idea that the entire game is only well-coordinated statics playing the hardest content in the game at the highest skill level is incredibly stupid. SCH and AST are amazing in that setting, sure, but most of the game and even most of Savage isn't played that way.

The strengths of WHM lie elsewhere, specifically when it comes to being able to singlehandedly avert wipes and power through rough patches. It's like saying RDM and Verraise are worthless just because they aren't useful in farming or speedkills; that's all well and good but most groups aren't on the level of farming or speedkills and so RDM retains value.

If you have a group that doesn't need that extra safety net that's great and I'm happy for that. I've pugged a fair bit of this tier specifically and literally swapped off of AST because of this disparity I'm bringing up, only swapping back to it on o12 because Lightspeed is too good for Final to pass up. That's the point here - there is more to raiding than the setting where AST/SCH get to shine.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

noise.

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I don't understand how you can look at clear rates and still act like WHM being disenfranchised is still the largest issue facing healer balance.

There is literally an imbalance favoring SCH to a massive degree with WHM and AST being much closer for the entire expansion and somehow you still make this about WHM?

Move on. Extra healing is a valid resource for lots of groups, especially pugs. As I said to Hyomin if you have a group that doesn't make mistakes great for you! If not then WHM still very much has value. Denying it is just inflating your own self image, trying to act like the actual top tier if raiders when you don't have the skill to back it up.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It all depends on how the cards are optimized, as well as the overall performance of the group. Balance can bring 500 to 1,000 rDPS depending on the rate, kill time, and optimization of the members involved. AST’s personal DPS is also fairly comparable to WHM, and that 500~1,000 rDPS is better than 0.

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There will always be a best as far as dps goes. Trying to get the difference between the healers to 0 is a pipe dream. It's really about bringing them reasonably close and what you believe that to be and, honestly, I think they've been there for a while now. Scouring fflogs, I'm amazed at how little impact it really seems to make compared to how much people talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I don't understand how you can look at clear rates and still act like WHM being disenfranchised is still the largest issue facing healer balance.

There is literally an imbalance favoring SCH to a massive degree with WHM and AST being much closer for the entire expansion and somehow you still make this about WHM?

Move on. Extra healing is a valid resource for lots of groups, especially pugs. As I said to Hyomin if you have a group that doesn't make mistakes great for you! If not then WHM still very much has value. Denying it is just inflating your own self image, trying to act like the actual top tier if raiders when you don't have the skill to back it up.

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Perhaps because you're inserting an argument I never made. Nowhere did I say WHM isn't viable or somehow incapable of clearing content. Quite the contrary, in fact. I simply said it's the weakest of the three healers. A group doesn't need to be perfect for that fact to remain hence why I specifically mentioned a weaker AST still being better than WHM provided both are within a certain range of each other.

But yes, conflate my argument into the nonsense you have to be a top tier raider to recognize when one job (this isn't unique to healers) falls behind statistically. WHM's popularity keeps its numbers high—that and it being very easy to play. Since you want to trade snarky comments. What have you done on healers?

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

There will always be a best as far as dps goes. Trying to get the difference between the healers to 0 is a pipe dream. It's really about bringing them reasonably close and what you believe that to be and, honestly, I think they've been there for a while now. Scouring fflogs, I'm amazed at how little impact it really seems to make compared to how much people talk about it.

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I’m aware that there will always be a best/always be a META. That is inevitable. However, you’re not considering cards stacked with other raid buffs. Alone, sure—perhaps they seem like they don’t do much. With a group that cannot optimize them—sure, perhaps they don’t do much. But coordination with burst phases and key raid buffs like Litany, BV, and Chain go a long way when it comes to cards. The meta is all about stacking buffs, not just one single buff.