PAX 2017 : Request the next new Job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yin111

I do not know what Devi'ls Advocate means, but it is incorrect to use an example from another game to use in XIV. XIV runs very diffrently from the Everqust at it's core. While it might work in Everquest the ressult would be completly diffrent if implemented in XIV.

---

To "Play the Devil's Advocate" means to say something that will start a debate or argument.

And to say that we can't use examples from other games in XIV makes no sense, seeing as that's what we are doing when we ask for jobs from other, non-MMORPG-FF games. :B
I don't think they are asking for a carbon-copy of Shadowknights from Everquest, they are just using it as an example of what kind of jobs they would like to see added.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yin111

I do not know what Devi'ls Advocate means, but it is incorrect to use an example from another game to use in XIV. XIV runs very diffrently from the Everqust at it's core. While it might work in Everquest the ressult would be completly diffrent if implemented in XIV.

---

It really doesn't.

The algorithms are slightly different determining what stat does what. But the basic system of target this, us skill, something happens is the same in both games. I could take the Warrior job for example, give it a pet, reduce the potency of some of its combo actions, increase enmity generation to compensate, then apply that damage loss as potency attacks to a pet and call it a tanking pet class.

I'd dare say its easier to balance in FFXIV than EQ's system of making pets mobs with their own stats independent of the caster. I'm actually halfway agreeing with you that the systems are a little different. SE made it more modular in FFXIV than 989 Studios (Verant/SOE/Daybreak) did with EQ.

So you're right, its easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

It really doesn't.

The algorithms are slightly different determining what stat does what. But the basic system of target this, us skill, something happens is the same in both games. I could take the Warrior job for example, give it a pet, reduce the potency of some of its combo actions, increase enmity

So you're right, its easier.

---

So you think it would work, how exactly did shadow knights work their pet, in a sense that works with xiv? I played vanilla everquest for aout a day so i was not even aware that shadowknights branched out to pet user tank job/class. I just remember sitting around re learning spells after killing a few rats.

Im serious here i just want to know how it worked in EQ i never played the game besides that one time.

Jobs I would like to see.

Tank: Judge - think of one of the guys from FF12. Give them magicite skills as well.
DPS: Painter - FF6's Relm could paint enemies and use their skill. More interesting and probably colourful than Blue Mage at least.
Healer: Crystalist - Uses the power of crystals, possibly shards taken from the primal crystals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

...

---

Wording may have been incorrect so I will try to be more clear. When talking about a system in a different game, it must be thought around in how it would possibly work in XIV. Disscussing non-MMORPG-FF game jobs, to be introduced, is not a false logical leap. Since implementing a job means to give it a theme, a rotation and its utility that is iconic to the job. It is to build it from scrath and fit it to the current balance.

But when discussing a system or gimmick from another game, and saying that, "if that game can do it, XIV can to." it would be hard or not viable to do. Systems and gimmicks are vastly diffrent across games, time and effort would need to be invested heavly to change our current system to get something from another game. Followed by small scale testing by te battle teams. Ultimitly if the change was made and the system fails. It would mean time and effort was wasted and make the dev team look bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

-

---

Everything you said is heavy generalization. It sound ok, but when implemented does not follow well. Pet in XIV are dots with some support actions. You could give a Tank a pet, reduce the tanks damage and give it to the pet. But that would ultimatly make the tank undesierable to the balance. XIV pet, does not do spetacler damage compared to a player. If the pet is a DOT, does not tank or soak damage for tank, then it is best utalized as a DPS job where the said job have actions that wil boost the pet marginaly.

Ultimatly, the job can not be underpowered like Knight, needs to have defense comparable to other tanks, but the pet damage can not excced that of a turret or egi. The job also need utility to add to the raid, the pet can not use such utility as the AI will fire the skill imidiently. At the same time, the tank must not be stressed in manageing both the pet's targeting, skills, surviability, and the party's survivability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ADVSS

So you think it would work, how exactly did shadow knights work their pet, in a sense that works with xiv? I played vanilla everquest for aout a day so i was not even aware that shadowknights branched out to pet user tank job/class. I just remember sitting around re learning spells after killing a few rats.

Im serious here i just want to know how it worked in EQ i never played the game besides that one time.

---

I'm going to have to give you the 1999-2005 timeline of their use. I'm pretty sure things changed from 2006-2017 with new AAs and the like. But pretty much the pet was a persistent DoT. It attacked whatever attacked the SK or whatever the SK sent it after.

Savvy players learned that they could use it to pull mobs with so they didn't get more than one group on them. Really savvy players learned they could use Feign Death in a weird combination (I used to play a necromancer and could do the same thing, but for the life of me I forgot the procedure on how to do it) to pull single mobs from groups without using lulling spells.

Later they could sacrifice the pet for extra health or use it as a center for AOEing spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yin111

Everything you said is heavy generalization.

---

I did that on purpose as I'm not trying to make a new class here. Just show a rough example. Anyway one way a tank pet could work is something along the lines of -insert theme here- thing that draws agro to itself and basically tanks. Its HP limits how long it will last and when it expires, the threat transfers to the user. The benefit is the HP acted like a 'barrier' meaning the tank didn't need healing for as long as the pet was up. The pet doesn't even have to be mobile, if they want to make it a crystal, banner, or whatever.

In this example, the pet doesn't even have to do damage. Just a provoking/taunt effect that holds agro on it long enough to take a hit or two to die/withdraw. Again depending on theme.

Personally I would have any pet that a tank uses to be something that doesn't have 100% uptime. Last thing a tank needs is to manage two characters all the time. That way a rotation involving a pet reminds fluid and intuitive. That's just my personal take though, others may be fine with it.

The great thing about FFXIV is its potency system and modularity. It makes adding new themes (jobs/classes/abilities) really easy and only limited by imaginations. The hardest part is making it fun and interesting.

I'd go for a Gunblade wielder tank when the expansion where we hit Garlemard comes, since the gunblades looks like the iconic Garlean weapon (every high-rank Garlean commander wields one of them or a variant). I'd like to call it Legatus but, since that's a militar rank and there are lower rank soldier with said weapon, SE would have to pull a new name for it. Maybe something Garlean-ish. It'd be something fresh, regarding jobs.

Also, Salve-Maker would be an interesting concept, but it'd need some thinking to differenciate it from the alchemist and to make him have his signature ability, Mix, since originallty it combined items from inventory to create many diverse effects, and that'd create a conflict between game fantasy and gameplay.

DPS: Thief!
Support: Dancer
Tank: something that wields staves or poles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaethra

-

---

The skill you described sounds more like the ultimate survival skill for tanks, like Invincibility, Holmgang or Livivng dead. That being said, if utalized that way, probibly should make it so the NPC in qustion has more defense for 10 seconds to survive big pulls or a tank buster from raids.

XIV creating jobs are easy, limited only to imagination, most assurly I think they will always be fun, but the most difficult part is fitting it into the balance. While the JP community can work with what come out no problem, the West commnity would have an out cry screaming it is ruining the balance and demand a fix in some way. Yoshida does caters to the west players, and would end up changing the role's ability around. I think what Yoshida want, is to create a job with as little potentel for an out cry againts its abilitys. Which would be the most difficult part of creating a job.