[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

Yeah, but if they're planning on adding BLM specific armor, going by the recent letter from Yoshi-P, they're doing this regardless. What path they're choosing is what we want to influence.

Also before I forget: Quick shout out to the person that mentioned "REMEMBER THE RULES OF FC" - Fuck yeah man, good times. lol

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Yep, and thats where we disagree entirely. More choices doesn't always turn out to be better. We have a hundreds of choices in FFXIV now but we're still having this conversation.

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Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:

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Now you further divide each section (impose limits to prevent abuse) into levels. Keep it simple for now with 5 levels. You need to put a certain amount of points into BLM Lv1 before you can use points on abilities/skills/traits in BLM Lv2. This would prevent overreaching that is happening now with people using Rank 30+ traits on different classes.

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I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Is it because there's more choice or something else entirely, though? As long as it is beneficial to limit our options to achieve a better game experience, they should do it.. but I don't agree with limiting us needlessly, just because other games do it.

For example, why would they do this:



?

I'm not disagreeing, yet, but I'd like to hear what exactly makes the above superior to being able to choose what skills to use more freely. I can see that to use certain traits, you should have certain amount of specialized skills/spells equipped (kinda sounds like... BLU?), but I don't currently see why it has to expand to skills and spells in general. The specialized skills simply need be locked to the class in question, imo. Just like you couldn't use skills and spells above lvl37 in XI for obvious reasons.

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As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

Because the way we have it now:

If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

This is happening right now with every single class. As I said in the OP; "I don't know many people that leveled LNC to 50 but I can name a few dozen that leveled it to 20 for Fleet of Foot".

I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

I'm going to copy/pasta my comment from our discussion on BG about advanced classes. Advance class growth can be done within the current construct of the armory system (weapon = class).

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Yes. They can actually keep the current action/trait system that's in place and just apply the rulesets already in-game for various abilities. For example (just picking random numbers here to illustrate point):

Advanced Class: Black Mage (R25)
Total Action Points Available: 30
Spells I want to equip on action bar:
Flare 2 - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 10)
Flood 2 - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 10)
Aspir - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 5)
Bio - (Required Level: BLM R25, Action Points Required 5)

Under this scenario they can allow class identity and at the same time address class balance by using action points to limit how many powerful abilities a player can equip.

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Now, of course, the conclusion will be drawn that you have fulfilled the logical requirements to even consider equipping these actions:
Requirements:
1. Advance class quest completed
2. Appropriate arm equipped (staff or whatever)
2. Rank 25 Black Mage achieved

The armory system already gives you more action points as you level up so you would just continue to grow and develop your character.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

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I'm sure you think so. I, and many others (probably most others actually, considering that the armoury system is the most praised system of the game, across the board) disagree.
And honestly I feel that if you think that Se will do away with a major portion of it, you're putting the cart in front of the horse.

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If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

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That's easily fixed. At the moment class affinity between similar classes like THM and CON is very high. I would say excessively high. To the point that cross classed abilities have the same potency as the ones from the equipped class.

Lower the class affinity across the board (making sure that abilities don't become useless) and people will use cross classing abilities as they should, as support for their main class abilities.

The fact that the system has balance issues doesn't mean that it needs to be completely scrapped, or mutilated to the point that it's not recognizable. It can simply be rebalanced.

Thank you Shuichi, this is what I wanted to see when I started this thread. How we can take the groundwork from the OP and better integrate it into the game reusing as much as possible so that it won't take a long time.

Alright now that I fully understand your system, yeah you're right it is a good system...but not original (or final fantasy-esque). And right now yoshi-p is trying not to copy (too much) main stream MMO's. Good ides, but I don't think they're going that way.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

As yourself this, why would I suggest this if I don't feel that it would better the game experience for players? Also this make future balancing for the devs much easier.

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IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.

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If I leveled CON and THM to 50: I would pick the best skills from each of those and combine them. I'm killing one or both jobs in the process by taking something that is unique to one and using it on the other. This goes back to class uniqueness and is exactly why the devs and the majority of players feel its an issue.

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But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?

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I agree with you that the line needs to be drawn somewhere as it was in XI. Currently there is no line and thats where a portion of the problem is.

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Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Alright now that I fully understand your system, yeah you're right it is a good system...but not original (or final fantasy-esque). And right now yoshi-p is trying not to copy (too much) main stream MMO's. Good ides, but I don't think they're going that way.

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A good idea is a good idea. Nobody in WoW is currently complaining that having an AH was 'too much like FFXI', or that the new battlegrounds were 'too much stolen from WAR'. Nobody in Call of Duty is calling the game a Doom clone, and nobody in MvC3 thinks it's a tekken tag rip-off.

Games are about evolution. Good artists create, great artists steal. It's not like 'talent trees' weren't a ripoff of the old school FFs anyway... Why shouldn't SE be able to reclaim and reuse ideas they were responsible for in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Not sure I'm understanding what you're saying; so correct me if I'm wrong.

If you switch from WHM to RDM on CON you would still be the same level under this proposal. But SE could always just make you level it from whatever level the quest is (in my case its 20). One or the other has to be done.

I went over that in my third post in the OP.

You would in a sense be "enjoying RDM from 1" because the Advanced Class starts wherever the initial quest does.

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So you are implying that the following scenario is correct..

-Level your glad to 'X' level (quest level, 20/30)
-Pick PLD, level to 50
-Make decision to play DRK instead

By going and completing the DRK quest, are you implying that your DRK would start at class rank 30? or is it at 50 and you are just assigning points?


Personally, I prefer the xi approach of having to physically level the new class. Just making sure I'm following your thought process.